What are expats really saying when they say they don't feel welcome anymore in the LOS

[4MyEgo]

7 hours ago, alan grice said:

I don’t give a dam what their really saying , makes no difference to me..!.????


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

[Destiny1990]

Tvf forum was a good informative site years ago but nowadays its full with people complaining about being denied to enter or with people fed up and moving on.

 

     

[bwpage3]

On 8/31/2019 at 4:52 AM, CMNightRider said:

Maybe what expats who have lived in Thailand for years but are now leaving are saying is "enough is enough."  Thai Immigration has taken their moronic rules and regulations for foreigners to live in Thailand, to some sort of stellar height.  

 

In the long run, Thailand will pay a price for purging their country of westerners.  If these people want a dictatorship, then I hope it works out for them.  According to world history, leaders who have gone down this road before didn't fair too well.    

No, Thailand will not pay a price for purging their country of westerners.

 

Many expats want to believe they are important to Thailand's survival however, that is about as far from the truth as you can get.

 

Since the Vietnam War, westerners have had no significant impact on anything in Thailand or any of the decisions Thailand makes.

[kevozman1]

I don't go to Thailand as much as I once did, but in 2016 I spent two months in Thailand, 2017 two months, and then at Suvarnabhumi in 2018 I had a minor grilling at passport control from a grumpy official about my time spent in Thailand, nothing serious, but VERY different to past times. Sixty days in a calendar year is hardly a reason for any suspicion or questioning, but there we have it, this is what seems to be happening thesedays... Roll back to arriving at Don Mueang in 2004 and being met with smiles and pleasant conversation at passport control where I would say passport control was if anything too lenient. People rocking up with years of Thai tourists stamps in their passport no problem...

[phantomfiddler]

The reality of the situation is that there is a substantial core of Thai officials who could only be described as imbeciles or semi-morons, completely devoid of any ability for rational thinking but regrettably in positions of power.

After hearing a qualified engineer telling me that the reason I was not getting any water was because my water meter was not big enough, I firmly believe that there are people of this intellect placed in positions of authority throughout

the administrative system. They cannot be beaten, or rationalized with, and it is a cross that we must try and bear, and hopefully survive ????

[4MyEgo]

5 hours ago, jingjai9 said:

I think the sentiment concerning farangs not feeling welcomed here in Thailand anymore comes from those who have been here a long time (20+ years ago). Back in the day, farangs were somewhat of a novelty in many parts of the country. If you went into a restaurant or store or whatever, people would look, smile, point, etc. I can even remember a time or two not having to wait in queues at the bank or a store as tellers or clerks would motion to you to come on up and they would take you right away. In some ways being a farang in rural parts of Thailand was like being a minor celebrity.

 

Sometimes little children would cry at the sight of a farang as they had never been near a non-Asian person. You would still be overcharged at markets and for services so it was not all rosey, but it was not at all unusaual to feel special.

 

Over the years the novelty of course wore off, the Internet came along and with it Youtube, the number of foreign tourists and residents in Thailand increased exponentially and the next thing you knew farangs are a dime a dozen.

 

Time marched on and of course problems ensued. Thailand modernized and it became necessary to manage the quantity and quality of people coming into the country. Laws and regulations were enacted, mistakes were made, toes stepped on, misunderstandings became evident, and mixed feelings lurked on the sidelines.

 

So welcome to 2019,  I think there are still many lovely people around in Thailand, but maybe not quite as many as in the old days, but you know what old days are - the past.

You know what, you literally hit the nail on the head, very well summed up ????

 

As I mentioned in the original post, I have been coming here since 2005, moving here 4 years ago, I will dd that i am in Issan and haven't noticed a change, people still look at me as if I am a celebrity, although I got used to the uncomfortable feeling after a while, e.g. why is everyone staring at me, as if a girl would feel uncomfortable at men always staring at her, same same.

 

Today we were in DoHome buying some doors, from the minute we walked in, me, my Thai wife, and our two EuroAsian daughters ages 5 & 10, we were met with smiles at every isle, can we help you etc etc etc, these guys were going all out, not in your face kind of annoying you, but if I would ask my wife a question for her to translate to the guy to answer about the product, he was all over it, even spoke to me in what English he knew and felt very pleased that he could communicate with me.

 

Earlier at the shopping centre in Udon Thani, the looks from people was full on, makes me kind of feel as if something is wrong with me, but then again as my wife says, honey, your not what Thai's see as a farang, you dress well, you smell nice, your tall and your good looking, well, glad she feels that way...lol so of course people are going to be curious, like where is this guy from, I recall a lady at my daughters school saying to my wife, is that your husband, does he have any brothers, he looks like a Prince from the dessert....lol, I even get some wai's from the school kids, kind of odd, maybe they think I am an English teacher at the school or something, but that change your suggesting hasn't come my way yet, maybe also because I smile a lot, as I find that helps put the Thai's at ease as I hear Thai's think farangs are rude generally, can't say I blame them, I have seen some in full flight, losing their tempers, or flicking their fingers to get served, etc, etc, etc, something they wouldn't do in their own country.

 

The overcharging is definitely there is your not on your guard, anywhere in Thailand.

 

The guys at Immigration are ok, the local cops are ok, got pulled over at a roadside bloke in the town the other day, these cops do the school traffic controls and know my pickup, cop points me to pull to the side, oops I said as one of the guys from SCG put a door frame in the back which was sticking out, but put a plastic bag on it so you could see it was hanging over slightly, said to myself going to get fined for sure being a farang, a cop comes over, salutes me, I wai him and he walks to the back of the pick up, comes back to me, but not before I pressed the power button on the rear passenger window where Ms Shirley Temple was sitting, (my 5 year old), keeping dad company, and he looked at her and started talking Thai to her, and asked me for my license, then looked around and said, ok saluting me on my way, now I don't know if that was luck, or just a routine thing, but like I said the local cops are ok, step outside of the area and your just another number, time and time again, for the smallest thing, not just me, Thai's as well, so it's not just a farang bash, its collecting tea money time.

 

Ask me how I feel in 16 year + if I live that long, might have the same feelings a lot of departing expats have ? 

[sanemax]

44 minutes ago, bwpage3 said:

No, Thailand will not pay a price for purging their country of westerners.

Many expats want to believe they are important to Thailand's survival however, that is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Since the Vietnam War, westerners have had no significant impact on anything in Thailand or any of the decisions Thailand makes.

Thailand will survive , but many Thais will suffer .

Taxi drivers , bars , restarants , condo landlords , Thai airways , mom& pop shops in the village , families in villages.................many Thais will suffer

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, yogi100 said:

Blimey Nip, what a depressing post. But I don't doubt a single word of it especially the bit about Pattaya. Probably because it's the haunt of sex tourists.

 

I find that unless the Thais are in a situation in which it's expected that you tip them they are inclined to be sullen, abrupt and even downright rude. 

 

You notice it in the shops and supermarkets more than anywhere else. I sometimes need to buy things from upstairs in the Friendship Supermarket in Pattaya and never look forward to it. You never get a 'thank you' nor a smile just a scowl and silence. I now make a point of not thanking them for their 'service' either. Those downstairs are a bit more helpful and pleasant though.

 

I first visited Pattaya 35 years ago but today you'd think you were in a different country as far as the general attitude of the people are concerned. I honestly sometimes find the attitude of some Thai people to be a bit of a shock and they make no attempt to conceal their contempt and sometimes even hatred for us.

Try smiling more often and expect nothing in return, it might make you feel better, but think your past the point of no return, rudeness is met with rudeness, hatred with hatred, and what is accomplished.

 

Perhaps you need to change your approach, try it somewhere new, because it sounds like your a marked man.

 

Life is too short, just smile, think positive and enjoy the short time you have here, do something that would blow Thai's away, something out of the expected, you never know, your smile might just accomplish something meaningful in the end ????

 

[yogi100]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Try smiling more often and expect nothing in return, it might make you feel better, but think your past the point of no return, rudeness is met with rudeness, hatred with hatred, and what is accomplished.

 

Perhaps you need to change your approach, try it somewhere new, because it sounds like your a marked man.

 

Life is too short, just smile, think positive and enjoy the short time you have here, do something that would blow Thai's away, something out of the expected, you never know, your smile might just accomplish something meaningful in the end ????

 

I walk about grinning like the Cheshire Cat. It makes no difference. I probably have not got your natural charm, good looks and charismatic nature.

 

Any genuine and sensible advice on how to develop those qualities?

 

I'm sure many of us would appreciate a few paragraphs on how to win Thai people over without having to buy our way into their good books especially in Pattaya.

 

Thanking you in anticipation.

[yogi100]

3 hours ago, simon43 said:

I have to admit that in the small Issan town where I temporarily stayed for a few months, I have never seen so many miserable-looking western guys, all wearing ill-fitting shorts - showing off knobbly knees ????and sandals.  I never figured out why they didn't smile.

 

A very strange-looking bunch...

If you were seen wearing ill-fitting shorts, showing off knobbly knees and sandals you'd be pretty miserable looking as well. Bear in mind they're probably getting old.

 

Never judge someone till you've walked a mile in their shoes. Or sandals.

[yogi100]

2 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Tvf forum was a good informative site years ago but nowadays its full with people complaining about being denied to enter or with people fed up and moving on.

 

     

There's nothing stopping you starting a post about how wonderful life is these days in the Land of Smiles.

 

And while you're at it explain why there's no need to worry about being denied entry and how we should not be fed up and not feel any need to move on.

[mosan]

A friend of mine wrote me an email just two days ago outlining his a problems living here...this was my reply edited ever so slightly for consumption here on ThaiVISA:

 

The myth of ownership and peaceful living in Thailand was dispelled years ago.  Anyone thinking this was going to be the case forever just wasn’t paying attention to all the stories and rhetoric going around. 
 
I have relocated from village to town in search of peacefulness.  And I’ll be relocating back to the open spaces again in the near future.  
 
I’m used to being the “Black Sheep” in the family—be it my Thai family or my American family.  It’s quite disheartening to know that you’re not the favored person that you pictured yourself as.  Trust me when I say you are not alone.  Many foreigners here are learning that they are “like a fish out of water”.  Unless you are very wealthy and can command attention because of said wealth--along with a good handle on the local language--then you’re probably better off  in you’re home country.   You should be in a place where you are respected, served well and afforded all privileges just because of who you are.  If you choose to remain in your present environment, it is of your own making.  And as such, you should stop complaining and accept it for what it is.  Many people in this world do not have a choice, and most will never have a choice!

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, mosan said:

I’m used to being the “Black Sheep” in the family—be it my Thai family or my American family.  It’s quite disheartening to know that you’re not the favored person that you pictured yourself as.  Trust me when I say you are not alone.  Many foreigners here are learning that they are “like a fish out of water”.  Unless you are very wealthy and can command attention because of said wealth--along with a good handle on the local language--then you’re probably better off  in you’re home country.   You should be in a place where you are respected, served well and afforded all privileges just because of who you are.  If you choose to remain in your present environment, it is of your own making.  And as such, you should stop complaining and accept it for what it is.  Many people in this world do not have a choice, and most will never have a choice!

Having White skin these days , no longer gives you superstar status

[mrfaroukh]

I have spoken with many Thai people they also not happy with what is going on. Bad economy for them as a whole due to shortage of western tourist. If you decide to go they may say up to you but I am sure they will not happy for it. Have you tried to go to the bar complex. There are over 200 girls but not as much as 10 customers. Indian usually go to their own clubs and Chinease do the same I guess. Drop in currency is real major problem. My currency is down by almost 60% but I can still afford to stay . But I had to reduce many expenses. Now immigration problem. I feel as if they are doing us favor by making us run to immigration every now and then. Due to all the above plus more even I am thinking of not spending more than couple of months in LOS and trying to look for other alternative also.

[mrfaroukh]

3 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

No, Thailand will not pay a price for purging their country of westerners.

 

Many expats want to believe they are important to Thailand's survival however, that is about as far from the truth as you can get.

 

Since the Vietnam War, westerners have had no significant impact on anything in Thailand or any of the decisions Thailand makes.

You are very wrong, everything you see in places like Pattaya is because of tourists. Hotels, condos, 7/11, restaurants, bar etc. If you take a tour to Waling Street you will see many business are shut down now, there are sign of GoGo Bar for sale etc.

[Geir Rasch]

The OP do not understand the meaning of not feeling welcome. It has nothing to do with thai people in general. It is all down to the government! In particular TM30 which make me feel like a prisoner. They might as well put an electric chane on me. That make me feel the government take me for a criminal person. How is it then possible to feel welcome? I feel like I live under a dictatorship where we foreingers are not free and welcome.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Geir Rasch

[Jingthing]

8 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Tvf forum was a good informative site years ago but nowadays its full with people complaining about being denied to enter or with people fed up and moving on.

 

     

Times change?

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

The OP do not understand the meaning of not feeling welcome. It has nothing to do with thai people in general. It is all down to the government! In particular TM30 which make me feel like a prisoner. They might as well put an electric chane on me. That make me feel the government take me for a criminal person. How is it then possible to feel welcome? I feel like I live under a dictatorship where we foreingers are not free and welcome.

Arrive and get photo recognition , have your finger prints taken and all put on file , tell the authorities where you will be staying , have the money to show them you arent broke  , tell them where you will be staying every night and give them your phone number and e-mail address and any nicknames you have on any social media  , just in case you decided to go on a murderous rampage or rob a bank, they know where you will be staying and they will be around to arrest you in the morning 

[sunnyboy2018]

20 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I would imagine that there is some truth in expats relocating to 1st world countries, for example, if I was to go back to my home country, the government would give me $30,000 AUD for just having 4 kids, with there being a small amount for rental assistance in that amount, so the system in 1st world countries is good for its citizens, however that would cover the cost of rent, then I would have to use my funds to survive, or work, pretty much a similar situation to living here in a 3rd world country, i.e. using my own funds to survive, but here I can walk out of a Tesco, Makro or shopping store like that for a 3rd of what it would cost me back home, not to mention other cheaper things, like electricity, water rates, zero council rates, etc, etc, etc, then again, I suppose it boils down to where you want to afford to live, e.g. back home in an 80 square metre 3 bedroom brick veneer villa for $30,000 AUD per annum, or purchase it for $750,000 AUD, butted up to an adjoining villa, or a 6 bedroom 3 bathroom modern house here rent free, cost to build $100,000 AUD in a quiet part of the bush with neighbours close to you, but not close enough to infringe on your privacy.

 

I don't defend Thailand, there is a lot wrong with her, but I am a guest here, and appreciate the fact that I am aloud to remain here as a guest providing I abide by their rules, they have their concerns about security issues, their country, their rules, as draconian as people say, as for affordability or exiting Thailand, it's a non issue, as the saying goes; "have money, will travel", that said, of the many expats I have met here in Thailand, I would say 8 out of 10 don't fit into that scenario.

 

I believe those that have left couldn't afford to live here, and the ones that do remain here use an agent for their extension, i.e. corruption goes a long way, I know several guys that do it that way, e.g. they don't have the funds back home or in their accounts to stay legally after the embassies stopped issuing the letters because they couldn't/wouldn't confirm the amounts the expats were getting came from the sources the expats said it was coming from, but their embassies were charging them 3,000 baht a pop each and every time, wonder if anyone got a refund ???? 

 

Having said all of the above, my home country has warts too, and unless Thailand said, leave, or I had enough, I would only go back then.

 

Not defending Thailand at all, but as I said, I will enjoy living here, tolerate living here, for as long as I can, it's the balancing act, with any country really, it's not a perfect world, money or not, but money does help in a lot of ways.

Plenty of people do not have 23 thousand British Pound Sterling to tie up in a bank account. I dont but i have 3 properties in the UK. I am not poor but well invested although cash light. If any idiot thinks im gonna cash out of london to establish an extension here they are stupid. My property should be sufficient surity to be a financial gurantee of stability here. But military clowns have fixed patterns of unoriginal,  orthodox thinking utterly useless for running a country. They are even worse than socialists. Or French and German beurocrats.

[sunnyboy2018]

3 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

The OP do not understand the meaning of not feeling welcome. It has nothing to do with thai people in general. It is all down to the government! In particular TM30 which make me feel like a prisoner. They might as well put an electric chane on me. That make me feel the government take me for a criminal person. How is it then possible to feel welcome? I feel like I live under a dictatorship where we foreingers are not free and welcome.

A dictatorship?. A military coup. Ya think?

[4MyEgo]

7 hours ago, yogi100 said:

I walk about grinning like the Cheshire Cat. It makes no difference. I probably have not got your natural charm, good looks and charismatic nature.

 

Any genuine and sensible advice on how to develop those qualities?

 

I'm sure many of us would appreciate a few paragraphs on how to win Thai people over without having to buy our way into their good books especially in Pattaya.

 

Thanking you in anticipation.

I'd say by the way you replied to my post, you have all of the above, perhaps, it's the Pattaya folk, I am in Isaan, huge difference to the touristy folk.

 

As for winning over Thai's in areas where they see farangs all the time, sorry, can't help you on that one, I live in a different world up here, but keep up the Cheshire Cat smile, because without that smile, we are all doomed.

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Plenty of people do not have 23 thousand British Pound Sterling to tie up in a bank account. I dont but i have 3 properties in the UK. I am not poor but well invested although cash light. If any idiot thinks im gonna cash out of london to establish an extension here they are stupid. My property should be sufficient surity to be a financial gurantee of stability here. But military clowns have fixed patterns of unoriginal,  orthodox thinking utterly useless for running a country. They are even worse than socialists. Or French and German beurocrats.

I can appreciate where your coming from, but from someone with 25 years with a property background in all facets, a couple of quick thoughts.

 

1) What if one or two or all 3 became properties became vacant all at the same time for a period of time, how would affect your income requirements ?

 

2) Ever thought of a line of credit from the bank which you could put in the bank over here, off-set by the rental payments, you wouldn't need to draw down on it, only drawing down on the required amount, therefore only paying the interest on the amount you have drawn down, e.g. 800,000 or 400,000 depending on the extension requirement you require, that or pay 20,000 for one of those flees/agents to fuel their and some immigration officers needs.

 

Property is a good long term investment, but as with any investment, we can't take it with us, so maybe eat some of the fruit you have sowed, before you rot.

 

3 years ago I got rid of my property to avoid paying 1/3rd in taxes and future Capital Gains Tax as a non resident, the timing was perfect as a year later the market went south,  now around 20% down, as I have seen similar properties online selling for around $150k AUD less, and I still have ALL of the funds, reinvested into shares and put in the banks back in Oz, I only pay 10% tax on the interest, or little that I receive from them and as I don't pay any kind of tax on the shares, I have for the 1st time in my life experienced a no worries life, but you do have to have control on what you are doing, and I haven't basically changed anything that I would do on a my usual daily routines, except don't get up to go to work, which was the goal, e.g. retire at an early age. As I said property is a good long term investment, but life is short, and we have to enjoy that, and with money, the Thai government to me is not an issue when you guide yourself around their rules and regulations, even if they don't make sense to us, it's part of the Thai culture isn't it, duck and weave, and keep smiling, that's life here in the LOS, isn't it ????

 

I once had 4 properties, asset rich, cash strapped, and pretty tight, especially when interest rates went up 8% in a short time back in the late 80's, but as I said, you have to eat some of the fruits you sow, otherwise some family member/s will be smiling and saying dad or uncle Bob was a great guy, as they pi$$ it up the wall when you cark it. 

[geronimo]

A positive approach is by far the best way to go, those that like it here carry on liking it, and those who look for the bad side will continue to find minor issues. I'm awfully tempted to tell the haters to naff off back to their homeland, but I'll not bother!

[geronimo]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

Arrive and get photo recognition , have your finger prints taken and all put on file , tell the authorities where you will be staying , have the money to show them you arent broke  , tell them where you will be staying every night and give them your phone number and e-mail address and any nicknames you have on any social media  , just in case you decided to go on a murderous rampage or rob a bank, they know where you will be staying and they will be around to arrest you in the morning 

That's what happens when you have too many people on the planet ..... and if you've done nowt wrong, what's the problem?

 

[yogi100]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I can appreciate where your coming from, but from someone with 25 years with a property background in all facets, a couple of quick thoughts.

 

1) What if one or two or all 3 became properties became vacant all at the same time for a period of time, how would affect your income requirements ?

 

2) Ever thought of a line of credit from the bank which you could put in the bank over here, off-set by the rental payments, you wouldn't need to draw down on it, only drawing down on the required amount, therefore only paying the interest on the amount you have drawn down, e.g. 800,000 or 400,000 depending on the extension requirement you require, that or pay 20,000 for one of those flees/agents to fuel their and some immigration officers needs.

 

Property is a good long term investment, but as with any investment, we can't take it with us, so maybe eat some of the fruit you have sowed, before you rot.

 

3 years ago I got rid of my property to avoid paying 1/3rd in taxes and future Capital Gains Tax as a non resident, the timing was perfect as a year later the market went south,  now around 20% down, as I have seen similar properties online selling for around $150k AUD less, and I still have ALL of the funds, reinvested into shares and put in the banks back in Oz, I only pay 10% tax on the interest, or little that I receive from them and as I don't pay any kind of tax on the shares, I have for the 1st time in my life experienced a no worries life, but you do have to have control on what you are doing, and I haven't basically changed anything that I would do on a my usual daily routines, except don't get up to go to work, which was the goal, e.g. retire at an early age. As I said property is a good long term investment, but life is short, and we have to enjoy that, and with money, the Thai government to me is not an issue when you guide yourself around their rules and regulations, even if they don't make sense to us, it's part of the Thai culture isn't it, duck and weave, and keep smiling, that's life here in the LOS, isn't it ????

 

I once had 4 properties, asset rich, cash strapped, and pretty tight, especially when interest rates went up 8% in a short time back in the late 80's, but as I said, you have to eat some of the fruits you sow, otherwise some family member/s will be smiling and saying dad or uncle Bob was a great guy, as they pi$$ it up the wall when you cark it. 

Good post, you can't take it with.

 

Although a London firm Goldberg McTavish & Co, are now marketing a luggage rack that can fit on the back of a hearse and a long flat safe for our money that fits beneath a corpse in the base of a coffin when the time comes for it to be lowered into the grave or shoved into the roaring furnace of a crematorium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by yogi100

[mommysboy]

On 8/31/2019 at 3:41 PM, NCC1701A said:

you create your own reality.  

 

Walter Mitty, is it?

[mommysboy]

Going back to the question posed, I think they are mainly saying 'Thailand isn't cheap anymore relative to my currency. and I'm getting old and don't know what to do.'  And if in that position people really ought to leave pronto.  If there is any frostiness on the part of Thais it is because many millions are now working to become poorer, so they aren't going to go out of their way to make things easier for a foreigner.

[4MyEgo]

13 hours ago, thaicurious said:

Just to hopefully clarify for the two confused emoticon'd reactions.

 

My point is that we can exercise some control over our destiny but not complete control over fate.

 

Even in working for money, some might be born with aspects preventing their making much, be that by IQ or physical handicap or luck of where born (Somalia as opposed to America) etc. Someone born in America who made riches might not have had skills to survive Somalia. So a lot of that is luck of the draw. Within that, you can bring skills to bear or not, seek to improve yourself or not, etc., so then there is measure of being in control of your fate within certain bounds.

 

But even beyond that, even if you've been born into a lucky position, even if you worked within that to improve yourself, even if you've applied what you've learned all with good intent there's still this little aspect to life: deleted happens, because, news flash: Life is bigger than we are.

 

Karma isn't just a matter of what you put in is what you get out; though there is that aspect to it, It is not to say that you entirely are creating your own world. Because deleted happens, Karma is less about what happens and more about what we do with what happens. Being in control of your life is less about controlling what happens to you, more about controlling how you perceive what happens and thereby about how you deal with what happens.

 

Thus another saying: "We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are." For that is what we can gain some control over, our own perceptions, whereby we can control our reactions, whereby we can take action.

Well summed up, especially the last sentence, : whereby we can control our reaction", not our reactions us, and therefor can take control or our own perceptions, if you like, same same. 

[Geir Rasch]

8 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

A dictatorship?. A military coup. Ya think?

The military coup was in 2014. This years poll was not democratic, so I consider the generals are still in power and will be for the years to come. My hope is that the younger generation can make a change, but then I might not be around.

[Tropposurfer]

Great post ... a voice of sanity at last ????????????