Meeting with Immigration a missed opportunity

[Momofarang]

21 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

6 - How are the sums of money that aliens have to show proof of calculated? There is a figure of 65,000 baht a month, yet many can live at far below that level, especially if they have no rent to pay. Why is 400,000 or 800,000 baht required to be shown in a Thai bank account, but only by aliens. It is not required of Thais and nor is the monthly income level, and is therefore discriminatory.

Well the retirement visa is sort of a deal: "We are not overly happy to see a bunch of old pink geezers floating about our country but we let you in if we can benefit from it. Hence we want you to spend  least 65000 THB a months to boost our economy." So this figure is not "calculated" as a miserable subsistence level, but is a price you have to pay for the privilege to stay in the Kingdom.

As far as I am concerned the 65K figure is quite reasonable and I would be at all surprised if it got reviewed in the short to mid term.

Your last sentence (in my quote), is nonsense. I would be relevant to the TM30 issue though.

[Nowisee]

19 hours ago, jackdd said:

You need to understand that when talking with immigration police, you don't need to ask why a law is as it is, this is just not their responsibility. Their task is to enforce laws, so you can talk with them about how they enforce it, and ways to comply with the law.

they are incapable of using discretion and the greed of fine revenue too much to surrender just to make farang happy.

 

18 hours ago, drbeach said:

Are you sure they read TV? If so they should be aware of how many expats/tourists/foreigners no longer love Thailand and want to leave.

 

they don't care about their own country and it's people in many ways, so I doubt they give a care about farang's feelings... except if it involves chinese and the clowns can't even see the threat that poses, only the greed of now money. 
 

18 hours ago, drbeach said:

Thailand isn't that special anyway and if it's economy collapsed it would barely be noticeable on the global stage. 

 

the only thing to do is decide that this place is no longer of any value and presents no spectacular reason to stay here.  in fact it's downright dangerous, unhealthy, ecologically dying and boring in many cases.  not like how people go to usa for freedom, opportunity and rights or national parks, wildlife or recreational activities.  what does this place offer that other countries don't with better value, safety or freedom? 

 

the upper 1% has their money and has control of the 99%, they don't care about the economy.

at the average thai level the mentality here is keep fishing the pond of fish until they're all gone, then move to the next pond.  they'll continue until their economy collapses and sit around drinking wondering what happened.  

[TheFishman1]

TIT

[30la]

It was just a marketing, the winners are the lawyers (farangs) who organized this farce!

[AgMech Cowboy]

22 hours ago, jackdd said:

These questions were probably not addressed because they were talking with immigration police, and not Prayut or other ministers. Immigration police does not make the laws and they can't change them. Their job is to enforce existing laws.

There is only one question which you could ask them: Why did you ignore the law for so many years, and just recently started enforcing it? iirc this question was asked.

 

Let's imagine you would ask Immigration police these questions, the answers would have been:

1) Because the law says so

2) Because the law says so

3) Because the law says so

4) Because the law says so

5) They don't need to leave, they can apply for an extension

6) Because the ministerial orders say so

7) Because the ministerial orders say so

You are correct about the answers, but Barry is right about a missed opportunity.

 

With the answers you've suggested, the questions could have been directed toward who the Immigration Officers would recommend to petition to change the law. And maybe petition is the wrong idea, maybe write a letter to is better.

 

You can say Prayut all you want, but it really boils down to a lower level MP or Ministry. PM Prayut has much bigger problems to deal with than expat husband and retiree issues.  Maybe they (you) already know who handles these issues, but I'd write a letter if I knew who to send it to and had an address.  No, not an email address, an actual person with a physical address.  My wife doesn't even know who manages laws for immigrants and tourist. (of course the Thai Post Office would probably not deliver the letters). 

Edited September 4, 2019 by AgMech Cowboy
punctuation

[Thaidream]

56 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

ou are correct about the answers, but Barry is right about a missed opportunity.

 

With the answers you've suggested, the questions could have been directed toward who the Immigration Officers would recommend to petition to change the law. And maybe petition is the wrong idea, maybe write a letter to is better.

 

You can say Prayut all you want, but it really boils down to a lower level MP or Ministry. PM Prayut has much bigger problems to deal with than expat husband and retiree issues.  Maybe they (you) already know who handles these issues, but I'd write a letter if I knew who to send it to and had an address.  No, not an email address, an actual person with a physical address.  My wife doesn't even know who manages laws for immigrants and tourist. (of course the Thai Post Office would probably not deliver the letters). 

I agree with you comments.   The  Immigration Department falls under the Minister of the Interior while the  Authority for Visas falls under the  Minister of Foreign Affairs.

 

I believe an actual change in the law would have to come from the National Assemply and a bill drawn up by an MP; have discussions and a vote. approved by the PM and then printed in the Royal Gazette before enacted.  IMo since the Immigration Act of 1979 has not been changed since 1979- the national Assembly would never even consider such a thing unless it was a matter of urgency or National Security.

 

The Thai cabinet can certainly amend the law and change or add requirements such as no fee Visas; Visa Free Entry etc but just a few weeks ago the Minister of Tourism wanted entry without Visa for the Inidians and Chinese- the Cabinet met and  General Prawit indicated  that such a move would allow unlimted numbers of said nationalities into Thailand and huge numbers would never leave.  The Cabinet votd no but allowed no charge for the Visa.

 

For whatver reason- there are certain elements in the Thai Government that are very concerned about  security and this has been pushed down to Immigration.  I doubt they will ever do away with TM 30 but it may go back to loose enforcement .

 

IMO- the greater issue is the requirements  for long stay people in which  a large amount of money is tied up for 5 months initially and still half must remain in the bank indefinitely.  In addition, the fact that one's income must be transferred into Thailand by  foreign bank to Thai bank adds added and unnecassry burdens on the foreigner. This has nothing to do with national security and to me appears to be a backlash to 3 Embassies who refuse to 'paly ball' with Immigration and it is the long stayers who bear the burden.

Then there is the lack of any reciprocity for foreigners married to Thais.  While a Thai citizen who emigrates to the USA or UK is met with the initial burden of the spouse having assets of around $24,000 these assets can be money in the bank; income from a job; property or other.  Once entered and after a 2 year waiting period the Thai spouse  obtains  residence; and all the benefits and rights to social programs; health coverage; working and land purchase.    In Thailand- the spouse gets only the right to stay for 1 year- nothing else- no permanency- come back year after year- ad infinitum/

 

Then there is the issue of denial of entry at Thai airports; the lack of reasonable explanation of why; the lack of civlity and   the IO's not being honest in their denials.

 

IMO the above issues are a lot more important than a piece of paper aka TM 30.

 

IMO. the only people who could approach the Thai powers to be on any of these isues would be  the Embassies of the affected Nationalities.  A person or persons of diplomatic standing making  it know at the Thai Ministerial level may be listened to if there were enough of them.  In addition, if there was widespread  negativity about Thailand on Social Media and other Media and  the powers that be were convinced that this was costing Thailand reputation and money- it may move them,

[fhickson]

probably because it was being recorded. next time show up and see if they drag you from the room.

[fhickson]

2 hours ago, Nowisee said:

they are incapable of using discretion and the greed of fine revenue too much to surrender just to make farang happy.

 

 

they don't care about their own country and it's people in many ways, so I doubt they give a care about farang's feelings... except if it involves chinese and the clowns can't even see the threat that poses, only the greed of now money. 
 

 

the only thing to do is decide that this place is no longer of any value and presents no spectacular reason to stay here.  in fact it's downright dangerous, unhealthy, ecologically dying and boring in many cases.  not like how people go to usa for freedom, opportunity and rights or national parks, wildlife or recreational activities.  what does this place offer that other countries don't with better value, value and freedom.

well, its cheaper. i just got a load of dental work done here that was unaffordable in the usa. ghen i went out to dinner for a buck or two.

 

i just hope the dental work holds up and does not have to be redone anytime soon.

[Classic Ray]

The answer is to make the TM30 process a simple online transaction like 90 day reporting, through an app rather than the cumbersome hotel oriented system. 

 

The phone could record your your location as often as they like when you travel between provinces or Re enter the country. Make it easy and people will do it, no need to involve landlords, it’s the location of the person they are interested in, not where he may or may not spend the night.

[drbeach]

19 hours ago, Mavideol said:

have to disagree with their English proficiency, some are really and really very good they just are not on thee front lines but working on the back ground (trust me, (unfortunately) I know for the fact). I do think as it was brought up in previous conversations they do infiltrators here at TV, same as do the Chinese. In regards to them knowing or caring about our lost love of Thailand, they couldn't care less like they can't care less the baht is very strong they couldn't care less their exports are falling behind when comparing to their neighbors, we better come to terms with it (unfortunately) as our voices will not be heard nor our concerns will make them change..... plenty of money in reserve, "pretended" democratic elections, they guy didn't swear in as supposed to and the list keeps growing, question,... did the Thais care? NO the only ones complaining and placing their "uncalled" for opinions were us the foreigners, we are tourists , long term tourists but still tourists and for ALL of them (Thais, police and IMO included), tourists are walking ATM's some loud noisy / speaking walking ATM's

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Very few Thais understand English well enough to be able to comprehend what we're talking about on here and that was evident at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand TM30 panel. The head immigration honcho seemed like a nice guy, but his vocabulary was so limited he kept having to repeat himself because he ran out of words to express himself.

 

You are talking about a tiny minority of Thais who are fluent in English - one of which was in the audience of said panel and was rightfully concerned about the direction Thailand is taking. These are the Thais who have lived abroad and decided to come back home, but may decide to move out of Thailand again if things keep taking the turn they are taking.

[MartinKal]

The other justification given is to keep track of tourist numbers. Which is curious as we are talking about residents and the law does not apply to internal tourist movements of Thai passport holders which I seem to recall is a third of total tourist nights.

 

So what is the real reason for this intensified monitoring?

[Thingamabob]

Ridiculous. Do you seriously think your questions would achieve anything ? They are a total waste of time, and will most likely make things a lot worse. I don't know how long you have lived in East Asia, but you certainly have a lot more to learn about how things work around here. Starting point is to understand that the appearance, behaviour and manners of westerners in Thailand has deteriorated beyond belief over the last 20 years or so, resulting in a loss of respect from the Thai side. Very sad, and all down to cheap air travel.

[drbeach]

45 minutes ago, fhickson said:

well, its cheaper. i just got a load of dental work done here that was unaffordable in the usa. ghen i went out to dinner for a buck or two.

 

i just hope the dental work holds up and does not have to be redone anytime soon.

Get insurance and it'll be cheaper in the USA. Alternatively, go to Tijuana. Definitely cheaper there than coming here. In my country I pay a "gap" payment through my private health insurance which makes dental work a lot cheaper than in Thailand. Which is why I have never been to a dentist here and am waiting to go back home for my next check-up.

[drbeach]

1 minute ago, Thingamabob said:

Ridiculous. Do you seriously think your questions would achieve anything ? They are a total waste of time, and will most likely make things a lot worse. I don't know how long you have lived in East Asia, but you certainly have a lot more to learn about how things work around here. Starting point is to understand that the appearance, behaviour and manners of westerners in Thailand has deteriorated beyond belief over the last 20 years or so, resulting in a loss of respect from the Thai side. Very sad, and all down to cheap air travel.

That is a preposterous and offensive accusation. There is also no evidence to support what you claim. Most westerners are very respectful but we aren't door mats either. Likewise, take a look at how some of the Chinese behave here. I've seen it with my own eyes - shouting at each other across the store leading to confused looks and smirks by staff. The few westerners who are disrespectful are lewd drunks in Pattaya. Mostly short-term visitors.

 

Even Thais are starting to ask questions as they rightfully should.

 

If things are stupid, we question them. Thai officials can "lose face" all they want but that won't rectify the situation. It will simply lead to loss of investor confidence and an exodus of foreigners and a brain drain of skilled Thais. What will be left is a shell of a country, ripe for separatists, terrorists and criminals to take apart.

[jackdd]

I don't think there will be big changes, but there would be a very simple change which would make life much easier:

Currently the interpretation of "area" in immigration act section 38, is "province"

If they would just issue a police order which says "area" means "tambon" it would make it way easier.

Because then everybody who does not stay in the same tambon as the immigration office could do the report at the local police station.

[fhickson]

12 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Get insurance and it'll be cheaper in the USA. Alternatively, go to Tijuana. Definitely cheaper there than coming here. In my country I pay a "gap" payment through my private health insurance which makes dental work a lot cheaper than in Thailand. Which is why I have never been to a dentist here and am waiting to go back home for my next check-up.

private health and dental insurance in the usa is through the roof expensive.

 

tj your putting your life at risk and mexico sucks. tried that one already.

 

thailand is already tracking many via sim card registration, even changing currency, denstist even asking for passports now someone mentioned bts top up. curious as to where all this info is going. overkill.

Edited September 4, 2019 by fhickson

[drbeach]

3 hours ago, Nowisee said:

they are incapable of using discretion and the greed of fine revenue too much to surrender just to make farang happy.

 

 

they don't care about their own country and it's people in many ways, so I doubt they give a care about farang's feelings... except if it involves chinese and the clowns can't even see the threat that poses, only the greed of now money. 
 

 

the only thing to do is decide that this place is no longer of any value and presents no spectacular reason to stay here.  in fact it's downright dangerous, unhealthy, ecologically dying and boring in many cases.  not like how people go to usa for freedom, opportunity and rights or national parks, wildlife or recreational activities.  what does this place offer that other countries don't with better value, safety or freedom? 

 

the upper 1% has their money and has control of the 99%, they don't care about the economy.

at the average thai level the mentality here is keep fishing the pond of fish until they're all gone, then move to the next pond.  they'll continue until their economy collapses and sit around drinking wondering what happened.  

Don't see why Thais would care about Chinese feelings. They don't, just as they don't care about our feelings. Besides, Chinese people rarely question things to begin with. Officialdom only care about themselves and making big deals with whoever makes them the most money. The way they keep going on and on about increasing tourism, despite there not being very many good reasons to come here anymore proves that they are basically children. They have never taken an economics class; they think that increasing revenue is all about bringing as many tourists into the country as possible without considering the ecological and social consequences of this.

 

I agree that the USA has, despite it's faults, so much more to offer for tourists and as a place to live.

[drbeach]

1 minute ago, fhickson said:

private health and dental insurance in the usa is through the roof expensive.

 

tj your putting your life at risk and mexico sucks. tried that one already.

The 3 southernmost provinces of Thailand are far more dangerous than TJ.

[smutcakes]

6 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Don't see why Thais would care about Chinese feelings. They don't, just as they don't care about our feelings. Besides, Chinese people rarely question things to begin with. Officialdom only care about themselves and making big deals with whoever makes them the most money. The way they keep going on and on about increasing tourism, despite there not being very many good reasons to come here anymore proves that they are basically children. They have never taken an economics class; they think that increasing revenue is all about bringing as many tourists into the country as possible without considering the ecological and social consequences of this.

 

I agree that the USA has, despite it's faults, so much more to offer for tourists and as a place to live.

You could not pay me to live in the USA. Nothing has really changed in Thailand. The only thing changed is the TM30 and once they get the online system working properly that would only be a minor inconvenience. I simply will take my chances when traveling to other provinces when not staying in a hotel which is rare.

 

Other than TM30 things are exactly how they always were.

[drbeach]

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I don't think there will be big changes, but there would be a very simple change which would make life much easier:

Currently the interpretation of "area" in immigration act section 38, is "province"

If they would just issue a police order which says "area" means "tambon" it would make it way easier.

Because then everybody who does not stay in the same tambon as the immigration office could do the report at the local police station.

I think with all the outrage and this issue being featured in foreign media, there will be big changes. Just that the authorities need to buy themselves some time to come up with a "face saving" solution. I give it 6-12 months, though it could take longer. Alternatively, when the next immigration guy is in charge this whole thing may be quietly forgotten.

 

Reporting can be done by post. Dealing with the local police station solves nothing and just creates more problems - just mail in your form or once the app starts working, use that.

 

Nothing is consistent in Thailand. Even publication in the Royal Gazette means nothing. Case in point - since 27 June 2016 foreign cars and motorcycles started needing permission to enter Thailand for tourism purposes (except for vehicles from Laos, Malaysia and Singapore, and Burma/Cambodia in their respective border areas). December 2016 - a guide and lead vehicle requirement was introduced. However, at each border officials have their own interpretation - some let you in without a guide, while others are strict. Whole websites and FB pages have been created so travelers know where they can enter without paying thousands of dollars for a guide. About the only vehicles that need pre-approval all the time are those from China, since they were the ones who caused this to become "a national agenda" according to what Thai newspapers were saying at the time. Although there are far fewer foreign vehicles entering Thailand these days than prior to the rules being implemented, some are still getting in. By contrast, despite Burma being much less technologically advanced, they don't let anyone in with a car without pre-approval. I'm not arguing for stricter rules but why is it that Burma can do what Thailand can't?

[jondoe18]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Then there is the lack of any reciprocity for foreigners married to Thais.

Reciprocity should be a key word in negotiations any Free trade agreements,
Agreements regarding families...

Otherwise it is just taking the buffalo for a ride...shamelessly.

[drbeach]

7 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

You could not pay me to live in the USA. Nothing has really changed in Thailand. The only thing changed is the TM30 and once they get the online system working properly that would only be a minor inconvenience. I simply will take my chances when traveling to other provinces when not staying in a hotel which is rare.

 

Other than TM30 things are exactly how they always were.

Well I agree with you that not much has really changed in Thailand. Even the TM30 is nothing new, just being more enforced now. I hope that they will consider changing the system or perhaps scrapping it altogether. In the meantime, using the TM30 app/website, with less paperwork required than currently and ONLY when you re-enter the country, could be at least be an interim step in the right direction.

 

I wouldn't bother reporting when staying outside your home province if it's in a private home. I have never done it and there's no problem. Only people who need to use the services of immigration would even need to worry about it anyway. Tourists, those on 1-year multi entry visas who don't seek extensions, BOI smart visa holders, no need.

Edited September 4, 2019 by drbeach

[Tayaout]

The job of the military is to follow orders or enforce the law/constitution. It's the job of government to change law. Unfortunately, in this case the government and military are tightly intertwined. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Tayaout

[smutcakes]

14 minutes ago, jondoe18 said:

Reciprocity should be a key word in negotiations any Free trade agreements,
Agreements regarding families...

Otherwise it is just taking the buffalo for a ride...shamelessly.

So you will be happy with reciprocity with Iraq, Sudan, Somalia?

Or only countries where it suits you?

[jondoe18]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Then there is the issue of denial of entry at Thai airports; the lack of reasonable explanation of why; the lack of civlity and   the IO's not being honest in their denials.

They can easily make a simple rule / law

90/180 days on tourist visas a year ...Or 3 days a year on tourist visas.
But they prefer chasing people like dogs.

[jondoe18]

21 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

So you will be happy with reciprocity with Iraq, Sudan, Somalia?

Or only countries where it suits you?

Bilateral agreements ...Based on Reciprocity.

Edited September 4, 2019 by jondoe18

[Golden Triangle]

On 9/3/2019 at 4:03 AM, Bangkok Barry said:

I wasn't there but from what I've read,

Why haven't you bothered to watch the whole video ? I have & it may give you a different perspective.

 

Oh, and unless you were being sarky it is The Foreign Correspondents Club, not ALIENS.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Golden Triangle

[Bangkok Barry]

5 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

Ridiculous. Do you seriously think your questions would achieve anything ? They are a total waste of time, and will most likely make things a lot worse. I don't know how long you have lived in East Asia, but you certainly have a lot more to learn about how things work around here. Starting point is to understand that the appearance, behaviour and manners of westerners in Thailand has deteriorated beyond belief over the last 20 years or so, resulting in a loss of respect from the Thai side. Very sad, and all down to cheap air travel.

 

I've lived in Thailand for 25 years and know very well how things work. I wrote that more could have been made of the meeting and matters other than the TM30 situation - which although irritating is by no means as restrictive or inconvenient as other points I listed- could have been raised. I don't think I would have expected answers, but I'd have liked to see them trying to justify what is impossible to justify. I wouldn't have expected any result, and believe the meeting was a total waste of time whatever was raised there. And so it has proved to be.

 

They simply don't care about anyone or anything other than Thais and Thailand. That has little to do with the appearance, behaviour and manners of aliens over the past 20 years. It has always been so. We have never been respected. The only difference is that they have become more familiar of us and we are no longer such a novelty and a subject of curious but limited interest. It was a bit like seeing an animal from a zoo, but now we are commonplace among them.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Bangkok Barry

[Bangkok Barry]

5 hours ago, drbeach said:

 

4 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

Why haven't you bothered to watch the whole video ? I have & it may give you a different perspective.

 

Oh, and unless you were being sarky it is The Foreign Correspondents Club, not ALIENS.  

Sorry about the top of this post - not sure how to remove it.

 

What is the point of watching a video which has no plot, no surprises and no happy ending? The meeting was entirely pointless and produced nothing at all, as surely everyone expected. And the Thai authorities know us only as Aliens, not Foreigners. Just trying to adapt to the local lingo. Out of respect to them, you know????

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I've lived in Thailand for 25 years and know very well how things work. I wrote that more could have been made of the meeting and matters other than the TM30 situation - which although irritating is by no means as restrictive or inconvenient as other points I listed- could have been raised. I don't think I would have expected answers, but I'd have liked to see them trying to justify what is impossible to justify. I wouldn't have expected any result, and believe the meeting was a total waste of time whatever was raised there. And so it has proved to be.

 

They simply don't care about anyone or anything other than Thais and Thailand. That has little to do with the appearance, behaviour and manners of aliens over the past 20 years. It has always been so. We have never been respected. The only difference is that they have become more familiar of us and we are no longer such a novelty and a subject of curious but limited interest. It was a bit like seeing an animal from a zoo, but now we are commonplace among them.

A very good summary of the state of things Barry.

 

Indeed now we are commonplace among the Thais but are we respected? From my own experiences, depending on who you associate with and what you do, yes, but probably not among the overall Thai population. For most Thais, we're just "there" not even a passing curiosity.

 

In the video even well educated Thais are becoming frustrated with how things are going in Thailand but even their voices are not being listened to.

 

I think it's a two-tiered thing - Thais over foreigners, but the elite over the general Thai population. That's how society is run here.