Trump communication with foreign leader prompted whistleblower complaint -Washington Post

[wayned]

36 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

That is not first hand knowledge of the calls.

Unless he was on a speaker phone the only one that has first hand knowledge of the calls is Trump.  It's reported that the calls were not taped and only a written transcrip[t exists.  Trump could put anything that he wants in the written transcript which he is supposed to give to congress tomorrow. Now that they have announced formal Impeachment investigations I doubt that congress will get anything!

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, wayned said:

Unless he was on a speaker phone the only one that has first hand knowledge of the calls is Trump.  It's reported that the calls were not taped and only a written transcrip[t exists.  Trump could put anything that he wants in the written transcript which he is supposed to give to congress tomorrow. Now that they have announced formal Impeachment investigations I doubt that congress will get anything!

Well, the Inspector General has already seen the evidence so I don't think Trump is free to tamper with it. And keep in mind, the whistleblower cited multiple episodes. Not just this one.

[jcsmith]

3 hours ago, elmrfudd said:

you have no idea what was said or in what context, and you assume guilt nonetheless.

 get ready for another disappointment

Who are you going to trust? The pathological liar or the intelligence officer? Trump himself admits that he asked them to investigate Biden... reportedly 8 times in a single phone call. What more do you need?

 

From my understanding most calls are listened into by transcribers. Multiple transcribers who then compare notes after the call to create a transcript. If that is the case then you wouldn't need a speaker phone to know what was said. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by jcsmith

[SometimezaGreatNotion]

"The intelligence community’s chief watchdog, Michael Atkinson [Intelligence Community Inspector General], is known to his peers and colleagues as a highly cautious “straight shooter”... So when [Atkinson] sounded the alarm to Congress earlier this month about an “urgent” complaint he’d received from an intelligence official involving Trump’s communications, those who’ve worked with him were surprised — and took it seriously."

 

"There’s no evidence Atkinson is a political partisan in either direction — a search of campaign finance records, for instance, finds no evidence that he’s ever donated to a candidate."

 

"Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire has refused to share the substance of the whistleblower’s complaint with Congress, as is normally required by law after the IG [Atkinson] determines that the complaint is of “urgent concern.”

 

So, regardless of whether Trump is culpable, TRUMP'S ACTING DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE JOSEPH MAGUIRE HAS BROKEN THE LAW.

 

"At a closed-door briefing with the House Intelligence Committee last week, Atkinson stonewalled Democrats’ attempts to get answers — but only, he said, because his hands were tied by the Justice Department’s opinion, which was that the complaint “did not concern allegations of conduct by a member of the intelligence community” or an intelligence activity under ODNI’s supervision and is therefore outside the ODNI’s purview ... Whistleblower experts say Maguire doesn’t have the authority to overrule Atkinson, but effectively tied the inspector general’s hands when he involved the Justice Department."

 

Note that Atkinson disagrees with the Justice Department decision. Trump team again using shady legal tactics to hide information. No surprise there.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/23/atkinson-trump-ukraine-whistleblower-scandal-1508594

Edited September 25, 2019 by SometimezaGreatNotion
typo

[Jingthing]

Quid pro quo in your face.

 

[SometimezaGreatNotion]

3 minutes ago, SometimezaGreatNotion said:

"Atkinson ... said, because his hands were tied by the Justice Department’s opinion, which was that the complaint “did not concern allegations of conduct by a member of the intelligence community” or an intelligence activity under ODNI’s supervision and is therefore outside the ODNI’s purview ... 

So, according to Trump team, a whistleblower complaint can only concern allegations about 1) a member of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, or 2) intelligence activity under ODNI supervision.

 

LOL - that limitation is basically putting a gag on whisteblowers and, if upheld, will radically limit what the ODNI can investigate in the future,

[Jingthing]

*Deleted post edited out*

Let's get real. Only a tiny percentage of democratic primary voters are actually EXCITED by the idea of nominating Biden. The only reason he holds on to currently being a front runner is that he's wildly popular among older African American voters. It's not like those older African American voters would ever vote for "trump" instead of someone other than Biden being nominated. In other words Biden is now a private citizen and in no way indispensable to the democratic party's ambition to retake the white house. The way it seems now it looks like he might be toast and not capable of being nominated and the majority of democratics will be HAPPY about that. 

 

Assuming there will be scrutiny of Biden's actions in regard to his son's activities in Ukraine, at the end of the day -- SO WHAT? I certainly have no problem with that. The problem was trading necessarily military aid for finding trash on what at least was a major potential POLITICAL opponent. That's a very impeachable offense. 

 

Biden is a private citizen now. The issue at hand is the outrageous misbehavior (ignoring the endless and often effective distractions from the "trump" camp")  of a sitting and tweeting president. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Scott

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

[wayned]

I truly believe that Trump doesn't care about being impeached he even welcomes it. If he is impeached the first thing that will happen is that "Massacre Mitch" will try to stop it when it is presented to the Senate by putting it up for vote and if there are 51 votes against it it will stop there.  If not, he knows that there will never be 67 votes to remove him from office so it will be another "win: for him.  "The deep state tried to get me two times and they didn't succeed because I'm I didn't do the things that they said", and on and on and on!!

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, wayned said:

I truly believe that Trump doesn't care about being impeached he even welcomes it. If he is impeached the first thing that will happen is that "Massacre Mitch" will try to stop it when it is presented to the Senate by putting it up for vote and if there are 51 votes against it it will stop there.  If not, he knows that there will never be 67 votes to remove him from office so it will be another "win: for him.  "The deep state tried to get me two times and they didn't succeed because I'm I didn't do the things that they said", and on and on and on!!

Yes he's not likely to be convicted but that isn't the only reason to impeach. I agree "trump" likely thinks as you said, but the truth is that there is nobody at all that knows where this is going to lead now that it has started. 

[JHolmesJr]

This whistleblower is all lawyered up....government employees can't afford that level of legal

firepower...so who's footing the bill? Therein lies the answer as to who's behind all this.

 

[wayned]

The acting DNI threatened to resign if the Whistle blowers complaint is not handed over to congress.  Supposedly it will be handed over to congress today.  Most likely with all of the "other" occasions other than the Ukraine call heavily redacted.  We'll see!

[scorecard]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:00 PM, elmrfudd said:

you mean the same crew of TVF leftists that have been after the same result for 3 years regardless of actual factual evidence and have been peddling assumptions and innuendos? like that "objectivity"??

 

the lack of objectivity is precisely the problem.

'Lack of objectivity' I seem to remember a clown who refused to acknowledge proof of a certain birth certificate... could that also be lack of objectivity?

[Monomial]

I've read through the transcript, and the analysis by news reporters on both sides of the argument. Ultimately, it seems to me, the problem comes down to this:

 

Was it OK for Trump to ask the Ukraine to work with him knowing full well that this meant help digging up dirt on Biden, who is potentially a political opponent?

 

On one side, you have the argument that this is inappropriate. On the other, you have the argument that this is just business as usual. Depending on your personal values, you are going to fall into one camp or the other. I don't think this is clearly an impeachable offence strictly on the objective facts. By that I mean, 1000 years in the future, a student reading the transcript in history class would not automatically assume Trump was clearly wrong. He didn't say anything. You have to factor in the context to arrive at a conclusion. And that means it is subjective, and everyone is going to interpret this according to their personal values. 

 

Trump won't be convicted in the Senate. This much, at least, I think is obvious. This is political theater. The interesting point is how this going to play into the 2020 election, and how both sides are going to try and spin this to their advantage. So grab some popcorn and let the games begin. I am waiting to be entertained.

 

 

 

[Kelsall]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

The acting DNI threatened to resign if the Whistle blowers complaint is not handed over to congress.  Supposedly it will be handed over to congress today.  Most likely with all of the "other" occasions other than the Ukraine call heavily redacted.  We'll see!

Nonsense.  He never threatened to resign.  https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/acting-dni-joseph-maguire-denies-report-he-threatened-to-resign.html

[Tug]

27 minutes ago, Monomial said:

I've read through the transcript, and the analysis by news reporters on both sides of the argument. Ultimately, it seems to me, the problem comes down to this:

 

Was it OK for Trump to ask the Ukraine to work with him knowing full well that this meant help digging up dirt on Biden, who is potentially a political opponent?

 

On one side, you have the argument that this is inappropriate. On the other, you have the argument that this is just business as usual. Depending on your personal values, you are going to fall into one camp or the other. I don't think this is clearly an impeachable offence strictly on the objective facts. By that I mean, 1000 years in the future, a student reading the transcript in history class would not automatically assume Trump was clearly wrong. He didn't say anything. You have to factor in the context to arrive at a conclusion. And that means it is subjective, and everyone is going to interpret this according to their personal values. 

 

Trump won't be convicted in the Senate. This much, at least, I think is obvious. This is political theater. The interesting point is how this going to play into the 2020 election, and how both sides are going to try and spin this to their advantage. So grab some popcorn and let the games begin. I am waiting to be entertained.

 

 

 

You forgot to factor in the timing when Donald knew(after muller)testimony when Donald knew he was getting away with getting help from the Russians he immediately called Ukraine to ask a favor and factor in withholding aid to Ukraine nope Donald is dirty 

[BobBKK]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes he's not likely to be convicted but that isn't the only reason to impeach. I agree "trump" likely thinks as you said, but the truth is that there is nobody at all that knows where this is going to lead now that it has started. 

I believe Trump is very smart and knows the result of this. Entrapping Biden and his Ukraine 'expert' son to take out the front runner. The Prosecutor that was fired under Biden's influence will have much to say one would imagine and Biden will have to explain the 'coincidence' of his son selling his Ukraine-unrelated business for $3m (let alone the 'China deal' allegedly worth over $1b). 

Pellosi saw the trap and very wisely avoided it until some of her chums came under pressure from AOC's gang. Now she is in deep, deep trouble as they don't have the votes. Still Warren must be ecstatic!

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I believe Trump is very smart and knows the result of this. Entrapping Biden and his Ukraine 'expert' son to take out the front runner. The Prosecutor that was fired under Biden's influence will have much to say one would imagine and Biden will have to explain the 'coincidence' of his son selling his Ukraine-unrelated business for $3m (let alone the 'China deal' allegedly worth over $1b). 

Pellosi saw the trap and very wisely avoided it until some of her chums came under pressure from AOC's gang. Now she is in deep, deep trouble as they don't have the votes. Still Warren must be ecstatic!

That prosecutor was fired not due to Biden's influence. It was US policy that Biden was carrying out. In addition it wasn't only the US that pushed for that prosecutor to be fired but several european nations and the IMF. What's more, as has been stated over and over again, the only person who claims he was still going after Burisma is that prosecutor. The records clearly show he had stopped investigating that company over a year before the US demanded his dismissal.

And what business did Hunter Biden sell? And even if he did sell a business, what evidence ties it to his father? And the China charges are a crock.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-says-hunter-biden-walks-out-of-china-with-15-billion-a-lawyer-says-thats-not-true/2019/09/25/26b89e7e-dfcf-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by bristolboy

[bristolboy]

Here's a link to the entire unclassifed version of the whistleblower's complaint:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/26/us/politics/whistle-blower-complaint.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

[bristolboy]

20 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

This whistleblower is all lawyered up....government employees can't afford that level of legal

firepower...so who's footing the bill? Therein lies the answer as to who's behind all this.

 

You don't even know who the whistle blower is yet you assume he depends on his paychecks. Maybe he earned his fortune the way Trump did - via a rich daddy.  And you also assume that there aren't lots of first rate lawyers who might be willing to work pro bono in a case such as this.

[bristolboy]

On 9/25/2019 at 11:50 AM, JHolmesJr said:

This whistleblower is all lawyered up....government employees can't afford that level of legal

firepower...so who's footing the bill? Therein lies the answer as to who's behind all this.

 

Sorry to trouble you with facts again. 

 

Andrew P. Bakaj is the lawyer representing the whistleblower who came forward with information about President Donald Trump and his conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky about an investigation into 2020 democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

 

Andrew Bakaj and Mark Zaid are involved in Whistleblower Aid, a nonpartisan legal nonprofit that supports “individuals who, lawfully, report government and corporate law breaking. We can provide assistance to individuals in the United States or abroad who want to disclose illegal conduct, including misconduct relating to,” according to its website.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/09/andrew-p-bakaj/

 

[spidermike007]

There is a fascinating element to Trump's personality. On the surface he seems quite dim, and with his horrific lack of negotiating skills, one tends to think the same. Same goes for his 30 minute, unscripted rambles. He often comes across as a man who has not read much, does not know much, and does not seem to care. But, when you look at how he is capable to spinning the truth, the diabolical nature of his real intelligence seems to emerge. How he turns an investigation on himself, into a question about the very nature of the whistleblower, for instance. And now?

 

In audio obtained and released by the Los Angeles Times, Trump says: “Who’s the person that gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days, when we were smart, right? The spies and treason? We used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

 

This is truly fascinating. In many countries, a leader who betrays his country on the level he has betrayed the US, with both the Russian meddling, and this phone call (and perhaps many others we do not know about) would be considered an act of treason, and the perpetrator would be tried, and put to death. Yet, somehow he comes out with the spy stuff. This kind of thing keeps his devotees energized, and many start to repeat the mantra, like parrots. He is a master at this kind of deception, manipulation, and deflection. So, my guess is that he is less dumb than he appears to be. He may actually have an IQ of 100 after all.

[spidermike007]

Trump in reality, is the polar opposite of a patriot. He betrays the national security of his nation for dirt on his opponents, he got five deferments from the draft, when his time came to demonstrate if he was truly willing to put it on the line for his country, or be a coward and seek the easy way out. And if you take into account his five major bankruptcies, the billions he has stolen from investors, his "university" students, small contractors, and take into account the fact that they were mostly Americans, this really makes him the least honorable amongst the population, and not a patriot on any level. Only talk of patriotism to fire up his base. Never a demonstration of the real deal, when his butt is on the line. 

[sfokevin]

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.