Judge's order releasing Trump's tax returns and blasting 'repugnant' immunity claim put on hold

[webfact]

Judge's order releasing Trump's tax returns and blasting 'repugnant' immunity claim put on hold

By Jonathan Stempel

 

FILE PHOTO: U.S. President Donald Trump responds to a question about Ukraine and the whistleblower report during a joint news conference with Finland's President Sauli Niinisto at the White House in Washington, U.S., October 2, 2019. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque/File Photo

 

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Monday said eight years of U.S. President Donald Trump's tax returns must be provided to Manhattan prosecutors, forcefully rejecting the president's argument that he was immune from criminal investigations.

 

Trump's returns will not be turned over immediately, after the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan granted the president's request to temporarily block the order, handed down by U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero.

 

The Manhattan judge had called the immunity claim "repugnant to the nation's governmental structure and constitutional values," and said he could not "square a vision of presidential immunity that would place the President above the law."

 

His 75-page decision complicates Trump's battle to keep his finances under wraps, despite having promised during his 2016 White House run that he would disclose his tax returns.

 

Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance, a Democrat, had subpoenaed personal and corporate tax returns from 2011 to 2018 and other records from Trump's longtime accounting firm Mazars USA.

 

The subpoena was part of Vance's criminal probe into the Republican president and his family business.

 

Marrero's decision would have forced Mazars to start turning over documents on Monday afternoon, but the appeals court said the case had "unique issues," justifying a delay.

 

The court said it may hear Trump's appeal as soon as the week of Oct. 21 to 25. Trump has not been accused of criminal wrongdoing.

 

Two committees of the Democratic-controlled U.S. House of Representatives have separately subpoenaed Deutsche Bank AG for Trump's financial records, which include tax returns.

 

"The Radical Left Democrats have failed on all fronts, so now they are pushing local New York City and State Democrat prosecutors to go get President Trump," Trump tweeted after Marrero's decision. "A thing like this has never happened to any President before. Not even close!"

 

In suing Vance last month to block his subpoena, Trump said he was immune from criminal probes while in the White House and that the U.S. Constitution required Vance to wait.

 

HOUSE PROBE

The Constitution does not say whether sitting presidents can be indicted, and the Supreme Court has not decided the issue.

 

Federal prosecutors cannot charge sitting presidents because presidents have temporary immunity, according to the Department of Justice, but that does not block criminal probes by state-level prosecutors like Vance or even federal prosecutors.

 

"It's uncharted legal terrain," Jens David Ohlin, vice dean at Cornell Law School, said in an interview."If the framers of the Constitution desired a president who was completely immune from all forms of criminal prosecution, they would have said so," he added. "The counterargument is that the Constitution would prohibit it because it would infringe on the president's ability to govern the country."

 

Vance issued the subpoena four weeks after issuing another subpoena to the Trump Organization for records of hush money payments, including to two women prior to the 2016 election who said they had sexual relationships with Trump, which he denies.

 

Those payments were made to Stormy Daniels, a porn star whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, and former Playboy model Karen McDougal, with the involvement of Trump's now-imprisoned former lawyer Michael Cohen.

 

Trump is also trying to block the House subpoenas to Deutsche Bank and is awaiting a ruling from the 2nd Circuit.

 

The House probes are separate from the debate over whether Trump should be impeached because of his dealings with Ukraine.

 

Jay Sekulow, a lawyer for Trump, said he was pleased the Vance subpoena was put on hold. Danny Frost, a spokesman for Vance, declined to comment.

The Justice Department, which opposed dismissing Trump's challenge to the subpoena, declined to comment.

 

Mazars did not respond to requests for comment, but has said it would comply with its legal obligations.

 

'OVERREACH OF EXECUTIVE POWER'

In his decision, Marrero, who was appointed by Democratic President Bill Clinton, declined to assert jurisdiction over the Vance subpoena, saying Trump should have brought his case in a New York state court.

 

But the judge made clear that if the appeals court disagreed with that finding, Trump should lose.

 

Marrero said the president failed to show that enforcing the subpoena would interfere with his presidential duties, cause irreparable harm or be against the public interest.

 

He also rejected as too broad the idea of shielding Trump, his family and his businesses from criminal process.

 

"The expansive notion of constitutional immunity invoked here to shield the President from judicial process would constitute an overreach of executive power," Marrero wrote.

 

Marrero said even President Richard Nixon conceded during the Watergate scandal that he would be required to produce documents in response to a judicial subpoena.

 

Trump's lawyers said the case raised "momentous" questions about the president's immunity and complying with the subpoena would cause irreversible damage.

 

"There will be no way to unscramble the egg scrambled by the disclosure," the lawyers said in a court filing.

 

Trump is running for re-election. His current term ends on Jan. 20, 2021.

 

(Reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York; Editing by Steve Orlofsky)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-10-08

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[stevenl]

" A thing like this has never happened to any President before. Not even close!" " Trump said.

 

Very true, that is what happens when there is a president who is trying to act like a dictator and feels he is above the law. Much pressure on the checks and balances system at the moment.

[spidermike007]

These tax returns may reveal his relative lack of wealth, his high debts, his bank fraud, from grossly over inflated assets and his poor financial condition. In addition, they will reveal how this non patriot works the system and pays no taxes as all, and is one of the least charitable people with wealth. 

 

It may also reveal the fraudulent use of his so called charitable foundation, which was dissolved in order to avoid being caught in yet another fraud. Don Donald is going down. It is inevitable and of his own making. 

[Bluespunk]

23 minutes ago, webfact said:

despite having promised during his 2016 White House run that he would disclose his tax returns.

One of many misleading statements made by him

[Sujo]

I saw Jay Sekulow stated the ruling was a win for trump. Simply because there was a stay on the ruling.

 

You just cant make this stuff up.

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, Sujo said:

I saw Jay Sekulow stated the ruling was a win for trump. Simply because there was a stay on the ruling.

 

You just cant make this stuff up.

You could also interpret that as 'we know the ruling will go against us, so any postponement is a win for us'.

[pmarlin]

They will only show that he has paid no or very little income tax. Not  un-common for people who own large companies. He gets audited by the IRS each year and if anything criminal was there it would have come out long ago. This is a which hunt by a democrat district attorney and that is way Trump is fighting it. It's no bodies business what is on those tax returns.  

[Matzzon]

Just leave him immune, and throw his <deleted> in jail when he step down from his post. Then he at least know what his sorry life has to offer in the future.

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

forcefully rejecting the president's argument that he was immune from criminal investigations.

This is about criminal investigations, the President is not above the law, if he was Innocent he would want to prove it.

 

This is likely to show, false accounting, money laundering, that he has lied to investors about his true wealth, and he is just a financial black hole that is about to implode.  

[Basil B]

20 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Just leave him immune, and throw his <deleted> in jail when he step down from his post. Then he at least know what his sorry life has to offer in the future.

Need to stop him getting re-elected...

[Emdog]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

These tax returns may reveal his relative lack of wealth, his high debts, his bank fraud, from grossly over inflated assets and his poor financial condition. In addition, they will reveal how this non patriot works the system and pays no taxes as all, and is one of the least charitable people with wealth. 

 

It may also reveal the fraudulent use of his so called charitable foundation, which was dissolved in order to avoid being caught in yet another fraud. Don Donald is going down. It is inevitable and of his own making. 

perhaps also list sources of income, like twin towers in Istanbul (cave in to Turkey), amount of loans from various Russian sources (gee, ya think might have something to do with bromance of Putin?), etc etc

Could see evidence for violation of emoluments clause in Constitution. There is a reason high officials put assets into blind trusts, but not this magnificent and wise narcissist

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, pmarlin said:

They will only show that he has paid no or very little income tax. Not  un-common for people who own large companies. He gets audited by the IRS each year and if anything criminal was there it would have come out long ago. This is a which hunt by a democrat district attorney and that is way Trump is fighting it. It's no bodies business what is on those tax returns.  

 If that's all it will show, why not release them like everyone else?????

[Ketyo]

If there was a right wing populist who was likeable, competent and honest...... or...?

[joecoolfrog]

4 hours ago, Sujo said:

I saw Jay Sekulow stated the ruling was a win for trump. Simply because there was a stay on the ruling.

 

You just cant make this stuff up.

And yet still his fanboyz insist that he is some kind of hero , astonishing really.

[joecoolfrog]

4 hours ago, pmarlin said:

They will only show that he has paid no or very little income tax. Not  un-common for people who own large companies. He gets audited by the IRS each year and if anything criminal was there it would have come out long ago. This is a which hunt by a democrat district attorney and that is way Trump is fighting it. It's no bodies business what is on those tax returns.  

So did you not read the article in full or are you still pretending that anything you dont like is ' fake ' news ?

[Jonnapat]

Obviously a person with much to hide.

I wonder how many more dark secrets there are hidden somewhere. 

 

[Jonnapat]

4 hours ago, pmarlin said:

They will only show that he has paid no or very little income tax. Not  un-common for people who own large companies. He gets audited by the IRS each year and if anything criminal was there it would have come out long ago. This is a which hunt by a democrat district attorney and that is way Trump is fighting it. It's no bodies business what is on those tax returns.  

Nobody's business? Interesting. 

[mtls2005]

Nixon was compelled to release his tax returns for 1969-1972, after having stone-walled Congress.

 

A subsequent audit was found that he owed ~ $476,000 in taxes and penalties.

 

The current president faces quite a few challenges:

 

Ways & Means Committee

IRS Whistleblower: re: political interference in the president's or VP's audits.

NY State and Manhattan* prosecutors

 

 

Believe he will lose on appeal; Supreme Court will not hear this case for him.

 

 

It's a Grand Jury so his returns would not be made public, unless there is an indictment.

 

* Ivanka and Don Jr. dodged a bullet when Mahattan DA Cy Vance Jr chose not to prosecute them for various felonies like fraud. He received campaign "donations" from Trump lawyer Marc Kasowitz.

 

 

[wwest5829]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

" A thing like this has never happened to any President before. Not even close!" " Trump said.

 

Very true, that is what happens when there is a president who is trying to act like a dictator and feels he is above the law. Much pressure on the checks and balances system at the moment.

Good show, you beat me to the punch.

[Waterloo]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

" A thing like this has never happened to any President before. Not even close!" " Trump said.

 

Very true, that is what happens when there is a president who is trying to act like a dictator and feels he is above the law. Much pressure on the checks and balances system at the moment.

Isn't that because previous presidents have released their records prior to taking office!

[Caldera]

Too bad he cannot pardon any state crimes he has committed. Maybe he should make a deal (cough, cough) with New York's governor before it's too late.

[chokrai]

8 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

These tax returns may reveal his relative lack of wealth, his high debts, his bank fraud, from grossly over inflated assets and his poor financial condition. In addition, they will reveal how this non patriot works the system and pays no taxes as all, and is one of the least charitable people with wealth. 

 

It may also reveal the fraudulent use of his so called charitable foundation, which was dissolved in order to avoid being caught in yet another fraud. Don Donald is going down. It is inevitable and of his own making. 

Why didn't the IRS take action against him then?  

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed.

 

[joecoolfrog]

4 hours ago, chokrai said:

Why didn't the IRS take action against him then?  

Perhaps they have , we dont know do we ?

[Credo]

4 hours ago, chokrai said:

Why didn't the IRS take action against him then?  

He may not have directly broken IRS rules.   The taxes may be relevant to other types of fraud.   

 

As an example, I know of a person who sold marijuana.   He made a lot of money on it and he avoided a whole lot of misery because he had declared the earnings.   He was caught, but he did avoid any problems from the IRS because he had reported the income.   Whether or not he was accurate in his reporting, I have no idea, but apparently he was close enough to avoid any income-tax evasion.   

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, pmarlin said:

They will only show that he has paid no or very little income tax. Not  un-common for people who own large companies. He gets audited by the IRS each year and if anything criminal was there it would have come out long ago. This is a which hunt by a democrat district attorney and that is way Trump is fighting it. It's no bodies business what is on those tax returns.  

As I've said many times. Does anyone think the IRS isn't doing its job properly?

All part of the failed attempted removal by judicial means been going on for 2 years, but if they keep trying to do the same thing a different way maybe they will "win" eventually.

However, should be careful what they wish for.

 

Isn't it time for the Dems to come up with a candidate that can win the election, instead of this endless parade of failed attempts?

[jcsmith]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't it time for the Dems to come up with a candidate that can win the election, instead of this endless parade of failed attempts?

Or maybe it's time for you to realize that these investigations that you quickly mock and dismiss are rooted in truth. 

Cold Hard Facts
 

• Trump lied about not being able to release this tax returns because he was under audit. He promised to release his tax returns after the audit. His former lawyer says he was lying. Here we are four years later... and he's fighting tooth and nail to keep his tax returns from becoming public. 
• The Trump campaign attempted to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russian government. At best you can say this was a failed attempt, but they sent he presidents son, son and law, and campaign manager to take a meeting after being promised dirt on Hillary Clinton as part of the Russian governments efforts to get him elected. His son's response, "If it's what you say it is, I love it!" 
• Trump attempted to get the FBI director to clear his name by saying he was not under investigation, and later fired him. And he all but admitted that it was due to "this Russia thing". Days after the firing he had the Russian ambassador at the white house add bragged about Comey firing alleviating pressure against them.
• Trump attacked his Attorney General Jeff Sessions for a year before firing him. Why? Because he recused himself from the Russia investigation.
• Trump repeatedly stonewalled investigators into this matter. Only giving written answers to the special counsel, refusing to answer many questions. Never answering follow up questions. His aids deleted evidence. He repeatedly tried to influence the public opinion of the matter on twitter, attacking investigators. This is all detailed in the Mueller report.
• Trump clearly asked Ukraine to investigate his primary political rival and look for dirt on them. He withheld aid to them that had been congressionally approved just before it happened. When a whistle blower complaint came out his justice department (Barr being one of the people named in this complaint) refused to follow rules to turn the complaint over to congress for weeks.
• Trump has released a transcript of this report that clearly show he did it. He admits he did it. Case closed.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, jcsmith said:

Or maybe it's time for you to realize that these investigations that you quickly mock and dismiss are rooted in truth. 

Cold Hard Facts
 

• Trump lied about not being able to release this tax returns because he was under audit. He promised to release his tax returns after the audit. His former lawyer says he was lying. Here we are four years later... and he's fighting tooth and nail to keep his tax returns from becoming public. 
• The Trump campaign attempted to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russian government. At best you can say this was a failed attempt, but they sent he presidents son, son and law, and campaign manager to take a meeting after being promised dirt on Hillary Clinton as part of the Russian governments efforts to get him elected. His son's response, "If it's what you say it is, I love it!" 
• Trump attempted to get the FBI director to clear his name by saying he was not under investigation, and later fired him. And he all but admitted that it was due to "this Russia thing". Days after the firing he had the Russian ambassador at the white house add bragged about Comey firing alleviating pressure against them.
• Trump attacked his Attorney General Jeff Sessions for a year before firing him. Why? Because he recused himself from the Russia investigation.
• Trump repeatedly stonewalled investigators into this matter. Only giving written answers to the special counsel, refusing to answer many questions. Never answering follow up questions. His aids deleted evidence. He repeatedly tried to influence the public opinion of the matter on twitter, attacking investigators. This is all detailed in the Mueller report.
• Trump clearly asked Ukraine to investigate his primary political rival and look for dirt on them. He withheld aid to them that had been congressionally approved just before it happened. When a whistle blower complaint came out his justice department (Barr being one of the people named in this complaint) refused to follow rules to turn the complaint over to congress for weeks.
• Trump has released a transcript of this report that clearly show he did it. He admits he did it. Case closed.

As I said, be careful what they wish for.

The safest way is to find a candidate that can beat Trump at the polls.

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the unintended consequences of removing Trump through legal means. 

[jcsmith]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I said, be careful what they wish for.

The safest way is to find a candidate that can beat Trump at the polls.

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the unintended consequences of removing Trump through legal means. 

The flip side to that though is that he could be continuing to try to cheat and abuse his power right now. Prior to the impeachment inquiry he was completely stonewalling congress when it tried to have any oversight of him. He refused to hand over documents, everyone they brought in to testify he would claim executive privilege and not allow them to talk about anything during their time at the white house. Then today even when facing an impeachment inquiry he said he will not comply with their subpoenas or requests for information. 

So what do you do when a president refuses to allow the branch of government whose job it is to provide oversight of him, to do that oversight? And when he has corrupted the justice department to the extent that his attorney general is one of the people named in the complaint, who misrepresented the Mueller report and then took a month to release it, who has travelled the world seeking dirt to help Trump, and who believes that a sitting president is immune even from investigation. An impeachment is the only option there as it makes it easier to gain access to that information.

The reality here is that Trump is bucking the rule of law. I don't think Democrats have any choice but to open the inquiry and most likely to impeach him. And then put the onus on the senate, where it will most likely die. But any information they can get out right now is a bonus, and it may make it riskier for him to continue to pursue similar lines of thought. Because one thing he has shown during this process is he won't change. He's basically raised his hand in the air and broadcast, "If you want to help me win the election, I can help you in other ways." 

 

The tax returns are important because they may provide some insight into a lot of these matters. It may help people connect the dots. Or it may just wind up being something embarrassing to him, maybe he is simply hiding them because his finances are not as good as he would like. But he's obviously hiding them for some reason. We can't just assume that they are to protect himself from embarrassment when it could also be to protect himself from prosecution or from public opinion. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by jcsmith

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, jcsmith said:

The reality here is that Trump is bucking the rule of law. I don't think Democrats have any choice but to open the inquiry and most likely to impeach him. And then put the honus on the senate, where it will most likely die.

Read the thread that says Trump will not co operate with the impeachment which means no information will be forthcoming.

If the Dems want to get rid of Trump, find a candidate that can beat him at the polls, then after he is defeated he will no longer have presidential immunity, and a criminal investigation can begin.

IMO it's because the Dems know in their hearts that Trump can't be defeated in the election.

 

IMO, all the uproar is only making Trump MORE likely to be re elected.