Legallity of visa agents

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

I see advertisements here about "visa agents" who can bring

a retirement visa extention for a fee. using their services for a fee

will eliminate the need for the cash deposits in thai bank, both

for 800K for two months before the visa application, AND

the 400K needed to be in the account during one year.

QUESTION IS, OF COURSE, How legal are those agents and their

service? What are the legal implications for the one who hire

their services, in case of complication? For example, can

an immigration officer decide that their visa stamp is illegal or fake,

and than fine or even imprison the visa holder, AKA me?

[Lacessit]

I have heard of visa agents who will do this. The going rate is apparently 25 - 30 K baht.

They are operating illegally, and in the event of either the agent or a corrupt Immigration officer being caught, will drag the extension applicant down with them.

[Momofarang]

What do you reckon should happen? Immediate deportation? or deportation following a couple of months in the slammer? This is probably what would happen, as T.I.T, while the two other parties involved in the fraud would remain unscathed and "resume duties" after a short cool off period.

[ThomasThBKK]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I have heard of visa agents who will do this. The going rate is apparently 25 - 30 K baht.

They are operating illegally, and in the event of either the agent or a corrupt Immigration officer being caught, will drag the extension applicant down with them.

 

yeah this, visa agents per se aren't illegal but if they do something illegal then expect the consequences to go down on you aka void visa and deportation, while the agents and IO involved can't be thrown out of the country.

[The Cobra]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I have heard of visa agents who will do this. The going rate is apparently 25 - 30 K baht.

They are operating illegally, and in the event of either the agent or a corrupt Immigration officer being caught, will drag the extension applicant down with them.

I have heard this before and I dont agree at all.

 

If the services were illegal they would not be allowed to operate and certainly not allowed to advertise the service.

 

The stamp/visa is issued by the legal authority, by a lawful officer entitled to issue such a visa/stamp. The actions of the agent are NOT illegal, the actions of the issuing officer could be described as questionable in some circumstances but the agent is not doing anything illegal. 

 

If at some stage the actions of the immigration officer concerned was brought into question/doubt that is another issue and nothing at all to do with the agent.

 

 

 

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

1 minute ago, Momofarang said:

What do you reckon should happen? Immediate deportation? or deportation following a couple of months in the slammer? This is probably what would happen, as T.I.T, while the two other parties involved in the fraud would remain unscathed and "resume duties" after a short cool off period.

i know of a case in another country, not thailand, when the visa stamp holder was arrested in the airport, because the agent used fake visa stamps (you pay him for the "visa extention", give him

your passport, than get it back with what he claimed is ligitimate visa, but only in the airport,

when you try leave the country, it is discovered, by the IO that it is just fake visa stamp...)

 

the price paid by the innocent fake visa holder was heavy : few weeks in jail, heavy fines and lawyer fees, and aventually deportation and 5 year ban from that country.

[ThomasThBKK]

Just now, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i know of a case in another country, not thailand, when the visa stamp holder was arrested in the airport, because the agent used fake visa stamps (you pay him for the "visa extention", give him

your passport, than get it back with what he claimed is ligitimate visa, but only in the airport,

when you try leave the country, it is discovered, by the IO that it is just fake visa stamp...)

 

the price paid by the innocent fake visa holder was heavy : few weeks in jail, heavy fines and lawyer fees, and aventually deportation and 5 year ban from that country.

You can read this all over vietnamese visa forums too.

The so praised business visas, most are done on shell companies with no purpose.

Vietnam cracks down on the companies, agents and then also blacklists the visa receiver.

 

I would expect that to happen everywhere else, in pretty much the same way.

[The Cobra]

Just now, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i know of a case in another country, not thailand, when the visa stamp holder was arrested in the airport, because the agent used fake visa stamps (you pay him for the "visa extention", give him

your passport, than get it back with what he claimed is ligitimate visa, but only in the airport,

when you try leave the country, it is discovered, by the IO that it is just fake visa stamp...)

 

the price paid by the innocent fake visa holder was heavy : few weeks in jail, heavy fines and lawyer fees, and aventually deportation and 5 year ban from that country.

That is entirely different scenario and deals with "fraudulent" stamps NOT issued by the correct authority.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

Just now, The Cobra said:

I have heard this before and I dont agree at all.

 

If the services were illegal they would not be allowed to operate and certainly not allowed to advertise the service.

 

The stamp/visa is issued by the legal authority, by a lawful officer entitled to issue such a visa/stamp. The actions of the agent are NOT illegal, the actions of the issuing officer could be described as questionable in some circumstances but the agent is not doing anything illegal. 

 

If at some stage the actions of the immigration officer concerned was brought into question/doubt that is another issue and nothing at all to do with the agent.

 

 

 

i agree with your disagreement. it is not clear. that is why i decided to ask here.

indeed if those visa agents were absolutely illegal, they would'nt feel so free to

advertise their services right here, on this site !!

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

Just now, The Cobra said:

That is entirely different scenario and deals with "fraudulent" stamps NOT issued by the correct authority.

indeed. i have no problem with visa agents, as long as they

will not get ME into trouble.

and the fee of 15K baht is worth it, if i can keep 800K out of thailand.

investing 800K in conservative way , with 3% annual return, will bring

24K annual profit, which will cover the visa agents commision.

 

[The Cobra]

1 minute ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i agree with your disagreement. it is not clear. that is why i decided to ask here.

indeed if those visa agents were absolutely illegal, they would'nt feel so free to

advertise their services right here, on this site !!

I have know of instances where the person actually accompanies the agent into the Thai immigration office to have their photo taken etc and received the visa stamp in front of the issuing officer ! there isno way that can be deemed illegal, it is not the responsibility of the recipient to question or not the validity of the stamp/visa issued by the lawful authority.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Cobra

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, The Cobra said:

I have heard this before and I dont agree at all.

 

If the services were illegal they would not be allowed to operate and certainly not allowed to advertise the service.

 

The stamp/visa is issued by the legal authority, by a lawful officer entitled to issue such a visa/stamp. The actions of the agent are NOT illegal, the actions of the issuing officer could be described as questionable in some circumstances but the agent is not doing anything illegal. 

 

If at some stage the actions of the immigration officer concerned was brought into question/doubt that is another issue and nothing at all to do with the agent.

 

 

 

Bribing an IO to get extension approval is not illegal?

I understand there was a purge at Chiang Mai Immigration about a year ago. One American who recently tried to do the 30K route was told no agents in CM would do it anymore. He is now in Cambodia.

Where do you get the idea an agent would openly advertise such a service? It would all be word of mouth.

 

[Jingthing]

I'd like to hear Ubonjoe's opinion on this. If an expat got a legit stamp but the agency and cooperating io were later cracked down on would the expat be in trouble or not? My only feeling about that is that it's possible but not certain

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i agree with your disagreement. it is not clear. that is why i decided to ask here.

indeed if those visa agents were absolutely illegal, they would'nt feel so free to

advertise their services right here, on this site !!

IMHO you are indulging in wishful thinking.

[The Cobra]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Bribing an IO to get extension approval is not illegal?

I understand there was a purge at Chiang Mai Immigration about a year ago. One American who recently tried to do the 30K route was told no agents in CM would do it anymore. He is now in Cambodia.

Where do you get the idea an agent would openly advertise such a service? It would all be word of mouth.

 

Whose being "bribed" no one is forcing/intimidating or coercing anyone to do anything, the officer is charging for a service, that does not constitute a bribe. Whether or not his actions are legal in doing so is another issue and one for immigration to address.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Cobra

[The Cobra]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'd like to hear Ubonjoe's opinion on this. If an expat got a legit stamp but the agency and cooperating io were later cracked down on would the expat be in trouble or not? My only feeling about that is that it's possible but not certain

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

What you have to remember is that ANY visa can be withdrawn at ANY time by immigration if they feel the need and have sufficient grounds to do so. No matter what the circumstances of issuance.

 

If a visa was deemed to have been issued "in error" or some other reason it would be cancelled and the applicant have to re-apply, as the stamp was legally issued by the correct authority.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Cobra

[OneMoreFarang]

The applicant is responsible that all the information on the forms and all submitted documents are correct.

If someone fills in the form for you and does it correct, fine.

If someone writes incorrect information and/or i.e. an incorrect document from a bank then it's your responsibility to check your application and all documents.

 

Personally I used an agent a long time ago for visa runs. And now our company uses an agent to make sure we fill out all the forms correctly and we submit all the necessary documents. If we do something wrong then our agent tell us to correct if before we go to immigration.

 

So in principle an agent can be helpful. Just make sure you check what you sign.

[OneMoreFarang]

In case you don't know be aware of the scam artists.

I remember a visa agent from a long time ago. It seems he had his home made stamp and the he "approved and issued" all those visas.

I think they allowed him 7 days to leave the country...

 

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The applicant is responsible that all the information on the forms and all submitted documents are correct.

If someone fills in the form for you and does it correct, fine.

If someone writes incorrect information and/or i.e. an incorrect document from a bank then it's your responsibility to check your application and all documents.

 

Personally I used an agent a long time ago for visa runs. And now our company uses an agent to make sure we fill out all the forms correctly and we submit all the necessary documents. If we do something wrong then our agent tell us to correct if before we go to immigration.

 

So in principle an agent can be helpful. Just make sure you check what you sign.

We are not talking about "companies" here.

THE agents who do it promise they can get the retirement visa extention

WITHOUT having to keep 800K baht in a thai bank.

that is all the point here. People pay those agents 15-30K so they will

not have to send - and keep - 800 k BAHT in a thai bank account !

And that's , my friend, brings to the question, is this practice legal, or, more

precisely, will it not cause problems for ME, the small time average joe

who use their service?

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

In case you don't know be aware of the scam artists.

I remember a visa agent from a long time ago. It seems he had his home made stamp and the he "approved and issued" all those visas.

I think they allowed him 7 days to leave the country...

 

my fear is what will happan to me, if i used such an agent, legal or not, in

case he gets caugth?

[xylophone]

25 minutes ago, The Cobra said:

That is entirely different scenario and deals with "fraudulent" stamps NOT issued by the correct authority.

This was covered off in another thread a short while ago and I remember posting a few paragraphs from an edict which was issued by immigration and it stated that, "the senior officer in the immigration department has the authority to sign off on a retirement extension without proof of funds" – – – or something along those lines, and it was made very clear that the senior officer has dispensation to do exactly that, so I can't see it being illegal?

[OneMoreFarang]

3 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

We are not talking about "companies" here.

THE agents who do it promise they can get the retirement visa extention

WITHOUT having to keep 800K baht in a thai bank.

that is all the point here. People pay those agents 15-30K so they will

not have to send - and keep - 800 k BAHT in a thai bank account !

And that's , my friend, brings to the question, is this practice legal, or, more

precisely, will it not cause problems for ME, the small time average joe

who use their service?

The company was just an example of what real agents do.

 

I guess it's like this: If the agent lends to you 800k and you can officially say you own the money (at that time) then I guess it's legal. The money must be in your bank account and you must have a legal document from the bank confirming it's your money.

 

But if you don't own that money but somehow you get a letter from a nice bank manager that he confirms you have an account, which you don't. Now then I would think twice if you really want to take that risk.

 

And going to the police and telling them agent x did something illegal is likely not helpful.

[from the home of CC]

ah yes, the briber and the bribee - two sides of the same corruption coin - buyer beware..

[OneMoreFarang]

7 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

my fear is what will happan to me, if i used such an agent, legal or not, in

case he gets caugth?

Best case the nice officers will tell you that your visa application was illegal and please do it again and make sure it's legal.

So maybe make sure it's legal right from the beginning - or live with the risk.

[The Cobra]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

The company was just an example of what real agents do.

 

I guess it's like this: If the agent lends to you 800k and you can officially say you own the money (at that time) then I guess it's legal. The money must be in your bank account and you must have a legal document from the bank confirming it's your money.

 

But if you don't own that money but somehow you get a letter from a nice bank manager that he confirms you have an account, which you don't. Now then I would think twice if you really want to take that risk.

 

And going to the police and telling them agent x did something illegal is likely not helpful.

Except that the senior officer who signs the visa stamp has the legal authority and discretionary power to issue a visa without ANY financial proof if he deems appropriate.

That is where all this talk falls apart. It is NOT therefore illegal.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Cobra

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

7 minutes ago, xylophone said:

This was covered off in another thread a short while ago and I remember posting a few paragraphs from an edict which was issued by immigration and it stated that, "the senior officer in the immigration department has the authority to sign off on a retirement extension without proof of funds" – – – or something along those lines, and it was made very clear that the senior officer has dispensation to do exactly that, so I can't see it being illegal?

THANKS for your reply.

i guess that explain it all.

that is the explanation to the legality of those agents

and i guess this is how they do it.

maybe twisted, unjust, inconsistent, but i don't mind, as long

as it will not get me into troubles.

[moontang]

29 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

indeed. i have no problem with visa agents, as long as they

will not get ME into trouble.

and the fee of 15K baht is worth it, if i can keep 800K out of thailand.

investing 800K in conservative way , with 3% annual return, will bring

24K annual profit, which will cover the visa agents commision.

 

Or you could just take 2% here and then only pay 1900 every year, and 100 for the letter.  You really need a banking presence here, anyways.

[Jingthing]

Of course the topic here isn't about customers actually meeting the requirements and paying for clerical help!

 

I assumed everyone was on the same page here realizing it's about making a payoff via an agent where you aren't actually meeting the financial requirements with your own money.

 

Geez Louise.

 

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[Orton Rd]

29 minutes ago, The Cobra said:

Whose being "bribed" no one is forcing/intimidating or coercing anyone to do anything, the officer is charging for a service, that does not constitute a bribe. Whether or not his actions are legal in doing so is another issue and one for immigration to address.

Of course it's a bribe and a corrupt illegal payment. While not illegal for an officer to waive the financial requirements, taking cash to do so is illegal, it's not a service, it's a crime! Let the buyer beware, some have had their extensions done in another province to where they live and have met with difficulties when going to their own office. Lets not pretend this money making is anything other than what it is.

[Orton Rd]

9 minutes ago, The Cobra said:

Except that the senior officer who signs the visa stamp has the legal authority and discretionary power to issue a visa without ANY financial proof if he deems appropriate.

That is where all this talk falls apart. It is NOT therefore illegal.

Not illegal EXCEPT if they are taking money to do it, which is always the case. Can anyone tell of a case otherwise?