Health Insurance: Non-Imm O-A

[lkv]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Not sure how that confirms much about a law to start Nov 1.

Order is effective as of October 31, 2019.

[SpokaneAl]

4 hours ago, ourdon said:

Any info about acceptance or denial of an OA (no health insurance) would be appreciated.

 

I have a new Non OA visa issued in October but will not be reaching the Kingdom till

Dec 1.

 

I can buy a good travel policy here but would like to know how necessary it is.

 

Thanks

I was in pretty much the same situation - bought a new non imm o-a in June and flew into Thailand on October 31. No conversation, no questions, stamped in for one year, just as they have done for previous new non imm o-a visas that I have purchased and used over the past few years.

[Sheryl]

5 hours ago, ourdon said:

Any info about acceptance or denial of an OA (no health insurance) would be appreciated.

 

I have a new Non OA visa issued in October but will not be reaching the Kingdom till

Dec 1.

 

I can buy a good travel policy here but would like to know how necessary it is.

 

Thanks

If the visa was issued before the 31st the nrw order does not apply. And after the 31st the Embassy or Consulate which issued the visa would have required proof of insurance from you. 

 

However it is a very bad idea to come here without insurance for at least emergency medical costs.

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, pookondee said:

No, of course not. Certainly appreciate all the free help. 

I was commenting on when asking a simple yes or no question..

Many are not simple yes or no answers here wrt immigration questions. I myself could be guilty as charged for fear of misleading someone. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by jacko45k

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Yes,they normally expires,but when we're talking about killing an O-A without a re-entry permit the second year, we're talking about "killing" it before it officially expires on purpose. Do you know what I mean? 

I guess you mean failing to take full advantage of the 2nd year one can obtain using it. But in effect the visa will expire on the same date whatever you do. Common knowledge that one needs to use it just before the one-year expiry, and then keep the one year Permission to Stay alive if one needs to leave Thailand, with a Re-Entry Permit. 

[pookondee]

42 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I guess you mean failing to take full advantage of the 2nd year one can obtain using it. But in effect the visa will expire on the same date whatever you do. Common knowledge that one needs to use it just before the one-year expiry, and then keep the one year Permission to Stay alive if one needs to leave Thailand, with a Re-Entry Permit. 

Perhaps you missed the context of the conversation?

I think he was talking about deliberately "killing" a Non O-A early, so as to apply for a Non-O and avoid the health insurance requirement.

 

Im not sure if my question was answered in that regard.

It seems the Thai consulate i use has been only issuing multi entry Non O-A, (as it is a higher price)

So you cannot "kill" that type of visa,

since on re-entry they will keep stamping you in until the 'enter before' date on the visa is up.

 

Granted though, i think he was talking about killing an "extension of stay" from an original O-A,

which is my argument, that would be a bad move if it turns out they are not requiring insurance for

 O-As granted before Oct 31st.

[jacko45k]

34 minutes ago, pookondee said:

.

 

Granted though, i think he was talking about killing an "extension of stay" from an original O-A,

which is my argument, that would be a bad move if it turns out they are not requiring insurance for

 O-As granted before Oct 31st.

If, yes. Although we now have had quite a few reports of immigration offices denying O-A originating stays to be extended without insurance. And at this time, ALL these Extension Applications must be based on pre 31st Oct O-A issued Visas. 

I believe a nearby Embassy or Consulate may refuse to issue a new Non-Imm-O when the passport has a still valid O-A, not certain on this. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by jacko45k

[Momofarang]

12 minutes ago, pookondee said:

 

It seems the Thai consulate i use has been only issuing multi entry Non O-A, (as it is a higher price)

That's another thing that deserves monitoring as it would given some sense a (this?) policy of requiring HI for all new non-OAs. The more I think about it, the more I believe it would be a clever policy to "cleanse" the retiree population of a period of 15 to 20 years. But corruption (agents) would remain a spanner in wheel of any well thought policy.

[Peter Denis]

19 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

...

I believe a nearby Embassy or Consulate may refuse to issue a new Non-Imm-O when the passport has a still valid O-A, not certain on this. 

That's correct.  When the 'valid until' date of your Non Imm OA Visa has not expired, it is not possible to switch to another type of Visa. 

However, when your original Visa validity date has expired you can stay in Thailand till the last day of the permit to stay that has been stamped in your passport (that's the reason most OA Visa holders do a border-run just before the visa validity date expires, so that they will have another full year on permit to stay).  During that 2nd year when leaving Thailand you will need a re-entry permit to keep the permission to stay alive.  But if you leave Thailand without having bought a a re-entry permit, your permission to stay will be void.  Doing so you have effectively 'killed' the permission to stay by leaving without a re-entry permit.

Please note that if you bought a multi-entry re-entry permit, you need to use up all the re-entry permits before your permission to stay will be voided.

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Please note that if you bought a multi-entry re-entry permit, you need to use up all the re-entry permits before your permission to stay will be voided.

It may be more accurate to say it is the arrival of the Permission to Stay Until date which does that for you. Going in and out would not be relevant, there would be no limit on a multi.

Edited November 5, 2019 by jacko45k

[Peter Denis]

9 hours ago, britishjohn said:

There's been talk about killing off ones OA and applying for an O. I know nothing about the O,  but I just read it's for people married to a Thai citizen or staying with Thai family. Is this correct ? And if so since I have no Thai family here I assume I can forget this option.

 

That's not correct.  When leaving Thailand when your OA Visa validity has expired without a re-entry permit, your permission to stay based on the original OA Visa will be void.  Having done so and having left Thailand, you can then apply for a Non Imm O Visa based on retirement at a Thai embassy or consulate in the country you entered (please note that not all embassies/consulates issue these, so check before leaving).  You can also re-enter Thailand (e.g. Visa exempt or on a tourist visa) and apply for a Non Imm O based on retirement at an immigration office.  Obviously when applying, you would need to meet the requirements for a Non Imm O based on retirement.   Many posts spelling out these requirements are available on the Forum.

[Andrew Dwyer]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

That's not correct.  When leaving Thailand when your OA Visa validity has expired without a re-entry permit, your permission to stay based on the original OA Visa will be void.  Having done so and having left Thailand, you can then apply for a Non Imm O Visa based on retirement at a Thai embassy or consulate in the country you entered (please note that not all embassies/consulates issue these, so check before leaving).  You can also re-enter Thailand (e.g. Visa exempt or on a tourist visa) and apply for a Non Imm O based on retirement at an immigration office.  Obviously when applying, you would need to meet the requirements for a Non Imm O based on retirement.   Many posts spelling out these requirements are available on the Forum.

Pretty much the situation I find myself in, on extension of stay based on retirement originating from an OA.

 

As I have no valid re-entry permit I can leave the country and in effect “ kill “, or void , my retirement extension. I then have the options to re enter on visa exempt, a tourist visa or a non imm O visa.

As it’s likely my next destination will be the uk and the London Thai Embassy has complicated ( IMHO) the visa process I will choose a visa exempt entry, apply for an O visa here and pursue retirement extension from an O visa.

 

But, I have time as my next extension is Sept 2020, I believe it is still early to jump the gun and make changes to my extension perhaps unnecessarily. I prefer to wait and see in which direction this is going.

 

Of course, people on valid OA’s, 2nd year permissions and extensions ( OA related ) in the near future are the ones who will be “ testing out “ the new rules, as the 3 denied foreigners have found to their dismay !!

 

A similar occurrence happened when the new financial requirements came into force ( March 1st ? ), lack of standardised rules between the Immigration Offices and a general lack of knowledge in the expat community meant many expats fell foul of the new rules before they settled down and became more routine.

 

Its still early days for this current ruling to become clear to all.

 

I genuinely feel for anyone who has found to their dismay that all of a sudden they are forced to purchase a Health Insurance Policy which, due to age , is expensive and basically impractical for their purposes many of which already have a better and cheaper health insurance in place.

[Andrew Dwyer]

I did join the FB group ( Thai visa advice ) to see if anymore up to date information could be gathered re: denied or accepted extensions or entries.

 

 The group is moderated by some right “ know it alls “ !! 
Threads are closed for comments almost immediately if anyone dares to ask about this particular subject.

[LivinLOS]

11 hours ago, lkv said:

Order is effective as of October 31, 2019.

was the wording not 'from' eg 'after' 

 

Starting a new process on the last day of a month seems, even for here, unusually illogical. 

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

If the visa was issued before the 31st the nrw order does not apply. And after the 31st the Embassy or Consulate which issued the visa would have required proof of insurance from you. 

 

However it is a very bad idea to come here without insurance for at least emergency medical costs.

You keep posting that with an absolute confidence, which as a moderator should be clear is currently an opinion, like the 'it wont apply to extensions' confidence posted here for so long. 

 

Secondly, as the year ticks along, and OIs have started to question and possibly deny entry to people who do not have insurance for post Oct 31 issued visas, the chance of them applying it to pre Oct 31 issued visas grows IMO. Eg letting someone in now Nov 19 is much more likely than letting someone in next year Oct 20, with the exact same paperwork. 

 

We have yet to fully determine what the policy will be and what kind of ratio to rogue IOs there are. 

 

I do agree that in any reading or logical understanding of the process, re-entry permits 'should' be considered the readmission of a previously generated entry. However logic doesnt always come into it. 

 

[pookondee]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

If, yes. Although we now have had quite a few reports of immigration offices denying O-A originating stays to be extended without insurance. And at this time, ALL these Extension Applications must be based on pre 31st Oct O-A issued Visas. 

I believe a nearby Embassy or Consulate may refuse to issue a new Non-Imm-O when the passport has a still valid O-A, not certain on this. 

If that is the case, and IF the officers have acted against the law,

 then the forum should encourage the 3 guys to do some sort of appeal against it.

 

Actually, if provincial IOs are making up their own rules, then maybe people should be encouraged to report it, or at least query it, at Chaengwattana.

 

It might achieve nothing, but it might also go a ways towards getting the problem of these inconsistent rulings and decisions looked into.

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, Momofarang said:

That's another thing that deserves monitoring as it would given some sense a (this?) policy of requiring HI for all new non-OAs. The more I think about it, the more I believe it would be a clever policy to "cleanse" the retiree population of a period of 15 to 20 years. But corruption (agents) would remain a spanner in wheel of any well thought policy.

Only if they were to stop issuing non imm Os for retirement, or spread the insurance to all retirement classes or all non imm O classes. Otherwise the option to simply leave and re-enter is obvious. This is partly why I think longer term, this is coming. 

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

As it’s likely my next destination will be the uk and the London Thai Embassy has complicated ( IMHO) the visa process I will choose a visa exempt entry, apply for an O visa here and pursue retirement extension from an O visa.

You can still get single non imm Os from consuls in the UK. Cardiff confirmed that to me just yesterday. 

[pookondee]

13 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Only if they were to stop issuing non imm Os for retirement, or spread the insurance to all retirement classes or all non imm O classes. Otherwise the option to simply leave and re-enter is obvious. This is partly why I think longer term, this is coming. 

I don't think so.

But the question remains:

Are they are excusing Health Ins. from the Non-O and the other visa classes,

purely because of the having 400 or 800k easily accessible in a Thai bank?

 

If yes then there is no reason, as the money is there and it was hinted they would consider people self insuring.

 

There is a big difference towards a Thai hospital recovering its funds from a patient who has guaranteed funds in a Thai account,

rather than having to get a patient to arrange international transfers..

 

they must then wait on that money,

and of course, they dont even know if the patient has any money at home anyway.

[Peter Denis]

45 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

...

Secondly, as the year ticks along, and OIs have started to question and possibly deny entry to people who do not have insurance for post Oct 31 issued visas, the chance of them applying it to pre Oct 31 issued visas grows IMO. Eg letting someone in now Nov 19 is much more likely than letting someone in next year Oct 20, with the exact same paperwork.

...

Non Imm OA Visas issued after Oct 31, will by definition have the required health insurance, otherwise the Visa would not have been issued.

On entry with such a post Oct 31 OA Visa Immigration Officers have been instructed to check the notes on that Visa, and they will not automatically stamp the OA Visa holder in for a full year, but limit the granted permission to stay to the expiry date of the health insurance (as provided in the notes on the Visa).  

[LivinLOS]

30 minutes ago, pookondee said:

I don't think so.

But the question remains:

Are they are excusing Health Ins. from the Non-O and the other visa classes,

purely because of the having 400 or 800k easily accessible in a Thai bank?

But OAs need the same to extend thier permission of stay and they apparently do need insurance. 

 

Why does one not need and one need it, when the candidates are the same and its just a technicality. 

 

I am not in any way saying its coming now or next year, having just watched the visa process get more and more restrictive, since 2000, and the way they seem to want to only have high net worth (elite visa, OX visa, etc) stayers.. I can see this as a way to make it less appealing to less financially affluent retirees over the next decade. 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

48 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

You can still get single non imm Os from consuls in the UK. Cardiff confirmed that to me just yesterday. 

Ahh okay, thanks.

Have just looked at the Hull site ( easily accessible from my hometown nr Leeds ) and seems like it can be done there also.

Seems like you send docs online and they forward to London then contact you to arrange a visit to get your visa , wonder how long in between you sending docs and the visit ??

 

Sounds real easy and certainly geographically easier than London for me.

I obtained a 60 day TV from Hull a few years ago and found it a small, friendly and efficient consulate.

 

Any problem I always have visa exempt and O visa in LOS to fall back on .

[LivinLOS]

16 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Non Imm OA Visas issued after Oct 31, will by definition have the required health insurance, otherwise the Visa would not have been issued.

On entry with such a post Oct 31 OA Visa Immigration Officers have been instructed to check the notes on that Visa, and they will not automatically stamp the OA Visa holder in for a full year, but limit the granted permission to stay to the expiry date of the health insurance (as provided in the notes on the Visa).  

Right.. But I am not talking about post Oct issued ones.. I am talking about pre Oct issued ones without notes. 

Once IOs get used to stamping 'up to the end date' of policies and not full year.. And get used to denying people without current insurance (post Oct visas) or checking notes.. Is it likely they will just say 'hey theres no note here so I should assume its fine' ?? Doesnt sound like typical IO behavior to me and clearly into the grey areas of local enforcement. I can only see it getting tighter not easier in that situation over the full year. 

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Ahh okay, thanks.

Have just looked at the Hull site ( easily accessible from my hometown nr Leeds ) and seems like it can be done there also.

Seems like you send docs online and they forward to London then contact you to arrange a visit to get your visa , wonder how long in between you sending docs and the visit ??

 

Sounds real easy and certainly geographically easier than London for me.

I obtained a 60 day TV from Hull a few years ago and found it a small, friendly and efficient consulate.

 

Any problem I always have visa exempt and O visa in LOS to fall back on .

The result of my call was I could get an appointment and one issued over the counter. 

[Andrew Dwyer]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

The result of my call was I could get an appointment and one issued over the counter. 

Even better.

Will definitely look into this when my time comes.

A quick phone call beforehand definitely seems like the way to go .

[oslooskar]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

If the visa was issued before the 31st the nrw order does not apply. 

My O-A visa was issued on February 5, 2019 and is valid until February 4, 2020. Therefore, I am exempt from the new regulation requiring me to have health insurance ONLY until February 4, 2020. After that I am subject to the same requirements for health insurance as the newly issued O-A visas----------that is, if I wish to continue living in Thailand. Hence, the O-A visas issued before October 31, 2019 are NOT exempt from the mandatory health insurance regulation for all time----only for the duration of their validity.

[Mango Bob]

I just called 1178 Immigrations hotline and stated that I arrived in Thailand 13 years ago on an O/A visa.  I asked if I would required health insurance when my extension of stay is due.  The gentleman told me yes I will need to show that I have insurance.  So this is different than what Jib was told.

[Peter Denis]

51 minutes ago, oslooskar said:

My O-A visa was issued on February 5, 2019 and is valid until February 4, 2020. Therefore, I am exempt from the new regulation requiring me to have health insurance ONLY until February 4, 2020. After that I am subject to the same requirements for health insurance as the newly issued O-A visas----------that is, if I wish to continue living in Thailand. Hence, the O-A visas issued before October 31, 2019 are NOT exempt from the mandatory health insurance regulation for all time----only for the duration of their validity.

There are a couple of inaccuracies/misunderstandings in your post:

1. Your OA Visa validity is till February 4, 2020.  When you entered Thailand you got a permission to stay, valid for 1 year from the day you entered.  The last day of the permission to stay is by definition later than the Visa validity date.

2. If you exited and re-entered Thailand after the first permission to stay was granted, you will have been stamped in again for yet another year.  Most OA Visa holders exit and re-enter just before the validity of their Visa expires (in your case Feb 4), as that would allow them to squeeze almost 2 years of permission to stay out of the original OA Visa.  Entering say on Feb 3, 2020 will generate a permission to stay valid till Feb 2, 2021.

3. After your Visa validity date (Feb 4, 2020) has expired, you can still exit and re-enter Thailand during the period of your stamped in permission to stay.  But if you want to do so you need to acquire a re-entry permit before leaving the Kingdom.  That re-entry permit simply keeps your permission to stay 'alive'.

In previous posts it has been pointed out that such re-entry permit is NOT an application for extension of stay.

4. At the end of your permission to stay you can apply for an extension of stay based on the original OA Visa.

This can be done 30 - in some cases 45 days - before the final day of your extension of stay.

5. It is NOT required to have health insurance during the full period that you have a valid permission to stay.

In your case the ultimate date would be Feb 2, 2021.

6. And probably most relevant in the context of the present thread, it still remains to be seen whether health insurance will be required when applying for an extension of stay of an OA Visa based on retirement.

TVF moderators like Sheryl and UbonJoe are confident that it will NOT be required for permission to stay based on OA Visa's issued before Oct 31.

I also tend to that point of view.  But as This is Thailand, for sure would welcome first-hand reports of holders of OA Visas/permissions to stay, where the application for permission to stay has been approved (or denied).

It's almost 1 week since the new requirement became effective, and there must be some OA Visa /permission to stay holders who by now have applied for an extension of stay somewhere in the Kingdom.

If you have done so > please post a report - Thanks!

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Peter Denis

[chubby]

Another nail in the coffin,  for so called "good guys in",  what's next, maybe EOS medical requirements     stupid is, stupid does TIT,  after 3 O-As ,  I'll be doing some other visa version ,    

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

I just called 1178 Immigrations hotline and stated that I arrived in Thailand 13 years ago on an O/A visa.  I asked if I would required health insurance when my extension of stay is due.  The gentleman told me yes I will need to show that I have insurance.  So this is different than what Jib was told.

Better to directly ask at the retirement desk at YOUR office.