Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[Rookiescot]

The union is finished.

All the Britnatz screaming like stuck pigs is not going to fix it.

52% voted for the break up of the UK when they voted for Brexit.

 

[englishoak]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Thank you for a very interesting read; I genuinely appreciate the time and effort you put into that.

 

I think that there is a lot of deliberate obfuscation on much of the nation's finances, but the reality is that all areas of the UK run at a deficit with the exception of the SE. Whether that is inevitable or the result of a failed (or deliberate?) economic policy, I cannot say. I must say, though, that the near balance in the SW surprises me, given how frequently we read of significant poverty levels in that part of the UK - maybe a result of under-funding rather than impressive productivity?

 

If I were to summarise your post (or, at least, my take on your post) in a couple of lines, I think our views are similar - the desire for cohesion is more to do with an innate belief in a whole which, somehow, has become unassailable to some. At a base level, the same ideology can be seen in some Rangers supporters, who are so staunch in their support for their team that this becomes a principle by which they live their lives, particularly influencing their politics.  

 

Maybe the apparent failure of successive governments over the lifetime of the union to create a unified sense of Britishness is a particular fault here. I appreciate that people in the north of England may feel equally as remote from Westminster as those from the north of Scotland, but they are still English at heart. Scots, similarly, have, in the main, never dropped the Scottishness above Britishness.

 

Of course, that in itself is hardly a rational justification for separation - a drive for independence based on romantic hubris is no better than a similarly romantic desire to maintain the cohesion of the islands. But combine the former with a sense of unfairness, whether that be in resource allocation or decision making, and then you have a viable move to something better. 

 

And that is the key thing here - what is being mooted as the package of an independent Scotland is not simply a change of decision making from London to Edinburgh, but a fundamental change in how those decisions are made and who has influence over them. I could not support  an independence movement that merely aspired to copy Westminster's institutions and enact them in our own capital - I want that the manifest failings of the UK political system are dispensed of entirely. We have seen that there is no desire whatsoever among either the Tories or Labour to amend the culture from which they have benefited for so long. Scottish voters have been proven to be ineffective in influencing change at a UK level. So, if you cannot change from within, better to walk away and create something better on your own.

 

 

Was glad to put thoughts down to a very good Q , ive not tried to before on paper and it was helpful to me as well once I got going,

 

I agree we are not so different in our views re the collective which is the UK, Im sure we would get along more than not IRL i find patriots the world over have much common ground.My only issue with Scottish independence is truly a total inability to respect or understand why any Scot who wants own rule and i support that 100% would even consider swopping one master for another, theres no pretending Scotland would have more autonomy and the rules as we both know arnt a choice. As a fellow patriot cannot fathom the support for Catfish and co given their obsession to join the EU... Not one Scotsman has been able to give a sensible and well thought out and plausible answer to me when I ask.

 

if its just because Scots want to pretend to be more European than British ok but then its just shallow and petty I am genuinely at a loss and not one of my many Scottish patriot friends get it either but just mumble its better than being ruled by Westminster. So reluctantly some but far from all vote SNPand ill admit that irritates the heck out of me because I see it as weak and false pride. For me thats just not independence and thats when I normally reply Scotls are weal willed and deserve to be run forever by the English then etc etc... Its not what I really think of course but being a patriot it infuriates me to hear another claim to being one yet really happy to just sell their ass and country to the next paymaster. At that point I have zero respect for such a campaign and thats all I see the SNP stands for these days. 

 

Maybe you could have a stab as a return Q you seem like as good and informed person as any. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by englishoak

[englishoak]

56 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The union is finished.

All the Britnatz screaming like stuck pigs is not going to fix it.

52% voted for the break up of the UK when they voted for Brexit.

 

 

You need permission to even have a vote and thats not going to happen now, not with a strong  gov in Westmonster.  Try telling me HOW its going to happen as so far not one has

[Brigand]

48 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Can you go into a bit more detail about why you think, economically, independence is not a viable option? Please don't just parrot the tired old lines but add some actual insight.

Well, I'm not ranting on about Scotland can never have another vote, just trying to inject a bit of realism ... which often seems overlooked. You asked about economic/financial viability and, well, the obvious elephant in the room is who/what institution is going to underwrite & guarantee everything if Scotland leaves? The BoE? Use the pound? Might be hard to convince Westminster to do/allow that and if they did, well, an independence road block there on fiscal policy already. OK, you could turn round and say we'll use the Scottish pound ... OK, sure, but someone still needs to underwrite it all and the markets might not believe an independent Hollyrood could convincingly do that (markets aren't stupid and get spooked easily). We all know how cowardly big corporations are and how risk averse they are ... well, in that event, many would just bail south till it all blows over. However, if I was a Scot, then one of my major concerns would be what would happen to my house price and my savings ... what currency would they end up in and how much would they be worth if not in Pound Sterling? Have any serious plans been issued on how these things will be dealt with? I'm not saying there aren't answers somewhere but there seems to have been scant thought given to such obvious problems thus far. Maybe the only option would be to use Pound Sterling to avoid a cliff face but Westminster is going to be pretty humbug on such points and would want something in return if they agreed ... which then brings us full circle to the "not independence" point. OK, maybe Scotland thinks a "transition period" style same as the UK is now in with the EU till the end of the year but it might take years to get Scotland in a position to be eligible to join the EU on their terms and Scotland wouldn't have much choice other than to accept anything and everything the EU wanted as that is the only choice then. I seriously doubt Westminster will agree to a 3-5 year "transition period".

 

What I was getting at is that the SNP should really knuckle down and get Scotland in shape so the EU could look at it and go "OK, cool" and can turn round to everyone and show that they can sort it out, instead of what it is at the moment which would fail the EU requirements on a few fronts (including the high deficit at over 7%). Not saying it can't be done but the SNP should bring a fully functioning and well run Scotland to the table ... which it isn't really at the moment.

 

As a question back to you RR, what is your view on what you think about the EU easily allowing parts of larger countries to break-away and then rejoining asap but as independent entities? I personally don't think the Brussels lot likes the idea of it much because of the possible future implications, as I mentioned, regarding their own larger countries who have independence/separatist areas (will just encourage them all the more). Fragmentation of the larger EU countries is problematic on all sorts of levels and I'm personally not sure they (EU) are really in favour of it ... and if they make it easy for Scotland then they have set the bar and let the genie out of the bottle, which would be hard to put back in considering the current state of things in many places. I'm just saying that it's not impossible but I don't think much serious planning and consideration has been given to a myriad of glaring issues.

[Scott]

One post has been edited.   Please use the correct names for politicians.  

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

 

You need permission to even have a vote and thats not going to happen now, not with a strong  gov in Westmonster.  Try telling me HOW its going to happen as so far not one has

We dont need permission from anyone. We entered the union voluntarily and can leave the same way. The UN has very strong rules on a countries right to self determination. Rules which the UK has signed up to.

The Scottish parliament has also just passed a law saying its up to Holyrood to determine when another referendum is held. It's been given Royal assent. 

Having Northern Ireland in the customs union while Scotland is removed from it also constitutes a breach of the Treaty of Union and therefor renders it null and void.

But why do you care? You voted for the break up of the UK.

[englishoak]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

We dont need permission from anyone. We entered the union voluntarily and can leave the same way. The UN has very strong rules on a countries right to self determination. Rules which the UK has signed up to.

The Scottish parliament has also just passed a law saying its up to Holyrood to determine when another referendum is held. It's been given Royal assent. 

Having Northern Ireland in the customs union while Scotland is removed from it also constitutes a breach of the Treaty of Union and therefor renders it null and void.

But why do you care? You voted for the break up of the UK.

 

So how about you tell me EXACTLY HOW , it needs permission ie agreement from Westminster lad or it wont be legal. Ive been over this with many Scots and English patriots and  its 100% needing Westminster to rubber stamp it, the Queen as zero power on this..  I care because although i want what you do Im not an idealist but a realist, far as I can see your talking about what you want with zero ability to tell or prove how thats at all possible let alone deliver..  and yes I want the break up f the UK and Ireland reunified etc etc but im not stupid enough to just rant about it happening when its not going to, you cant wish it t has to be legal.. if you cant give me a clear path its just stupid fanciful wishing, claims and  pointless assumptions, your just talking to your own naval and fellow expat and frankly its for the birds.... you dont have any future there so why do you care other than to talk about it in a bar or here ? 

 

I was hoping to learn something i didnt know that might make a difference but nope apparently not, I guess some people are just dreamers.

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

So how about you tell me EXACTLY HOW , it needs permission ie agreement from Westminster lad or it wont be legal. Ive been over this with many Scots and English patriots and  its 100% needing Westminster to rubber stamp it, the Queen as zero power on this..  I care because although i want what you do Im not an idealist but a realist, far as I can see your talking about what you want with zero ability to tell or prove how thats at all possible let alone deliver..  and yes I want the break up f the UK and Ireland reunified etc etc but im not stupid enough to just rant about it happening when its not going to, you cant wish it t has to be legal.. if you cant give me a clear path its just stupid fanciful wishing, claims and  pointless assumptions, your just talking to your own naval and fellow expat and frankly its for the birds.... you dont have any future there so why do you care other than to talk about it in a bar or here ? 

 

I was hoping to learn something i didnt know that might make a difference but nope apparently not, I guess some people are just dreamers.

Because a section 30 makes it easier for all concerned.

Refusal to grant a section 30 means it goes to court.

I can not make this any simpler for you.

[englishoak]

23 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Because a section 30 makes it easier for all concerned.

Refusal to grant a section 30 means it goes to court.

I can not make this any simpler for you.

Yes section 30...

 

Wing and a prayer section 30 then is your answer ? , thats what I thought youd come back with.... well aware of and been all over it and talked it over many times with friends, some legal trained and its not an solution or a path but a last ditch desperate gamble with much risk in failure. It isnt going to happen bud ive been all over it and precedence has already been set.

 

This was acknowledged by the Scottish government in its consultation ahead of the last referendum

“Any changes to Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom will require negotiation with the UK government and legislation in the UK and Scottish parliaments.” that wont happen in Westminster with this gov. Boris has way to much a majority to lose any vote. So kiss that goodbye or go to high court and risk never getting another one in a few terms ? i dont think NS has the stones and is far too smart to try and risk losing everything. 

 

Take it to the high court and waste everyones time and risk precedence being set there too and thats the end of any ref in the future... I will wager SNP isnt going to risk never again scenario and it would be foolish to do so, another decade is nothing in terms of time in the UKs shared history there is no rush and it can be proven over and over it was indeed once in a generation last time,its a high risk gamble and one it would be folly to make for simply being impatient but i will admit the SNP is unlikely to gain much more support and time isnt on its side imo. 

 

still isnt a path just a leap into the dark... naa IMO SNP dosnt have the stones mate

Edited February 4, 2020 by englishoak

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

We dont need permission from anyone. We entered the union voluntarily and can leave the same way. The UN has very strong rules on a countries right to self determination. Rules which the UK has signed up to.

The Scottish parliament has also just passed a law saying its up to Holyrood to determine when another referendum is held. It's been given Royal assent. 

Having Northern Ireland in the customs union while Scotland is removed from it also constitutes a breach of the Treaty of Union and therefor renders it null and void.

But why do you care? You voted for the break up of the UK.

 

Which UN rules do you refer to?

 

 

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Which UN rules do you refer to?

 

 

https://unpo.org/article/4957

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

https://unpo.org/article/4957

 

 

 

relation to UN being what?

 

allowed in as observer at some UN agency meeting/conferences?

 

the legal bit please

 

[Rookiescot]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

relation to UN being what?

 

allowed in as observer at some UN agency meeting/conferences?

 

the legal bit please

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

 

 

[englishoak]

Another scumbag borderline pedo MP bites the dust. 

Derek Mackay: Scottish finance secretary quits over messages to boy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

Another scumbag borderline pedo MP bites the dust. 

Derek Mackay: Scottish finance secretary quits over messages to boy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

An embarrassment for the SNP no doubt. 

 

Of course it is virtually unknown for members of any other political party to behave like this.

 

https://timetostartcaring.com/a-list-of-members-of-parliament-convicted-of-sex-offences/

 

hmm maybe not.

[Nigel Garvie]

On 2/6/2020 at 7:30 PM, englishoak said:

 

Whoa slow down with your stawman BS

 

I specifically avoided mentioning a party or a nation .Thats why i said another scumbag MP without even mentioning the SNP let alone highlighting the country, its a Scottish political thread and its a Scottish scumbag MP. Thaivisa isnt going to report it, if you thought it meant anything other than the facts then you are projecting. Or are you trying to excuse scum like him by pointing at others ?  i doubt it  but you are being overly sensitive. All pedos found guilty should end up doing the Tyburn jig imo

 

Trust me if I wanted to say  scottish SNP pedo scumbag or thought they had a pedo monopoly I would have done so, get some air pal your clearly not thinking straight. 

Kindly calm down, The point I was making, was simply that sadly this type of thing is not at all rare in politics. If you have hundreds of MPs or MSPs some will be paedos (English not US spelling) or gay, or whatever same as in the general population. 

 

"I specifically avoided mentioning a party or a nation".

Let's not be silly, the thread is about Scotland, your post said  "Derek Mackay: Scottish finance secretary". 

 

"Or are you trying to excuse scum like him by pointing at others ?".  This is offensive, I don't excuse him, or anyone like him, and never indicated in any way that I did. 

 

I said that it was an embarrassment for The SNP before......it is, a big one. The greater matter though is his personal behaviour, disgrace, and possible criminality. You will probably note that most Con, Lab, Lib, and SNP MPs have stopped striking a self righteous pose when a member of an opposite party does things like this, let those without sin ......ect. 

 

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Kindly calm down, The point I was making, was simply that sadly this type of thing is not at all rare in politics. If you have hundreds of MPs or MSPs some will be paedos (English not US spelling) or gay, or whatever same as in the general population. 

 

"I specifically avoided mentioning a party or a nation".

Let's not be silly, the thread is about Scotland, your post said  "Derek Mackay: Scottish finance secretary". 

 

"Or are you trying to excuse scum like him by pointing at others ?".  This is offensive, I don't excuse him, or anyone like him, and never indicated in any way that I did. 

 

I said that it was an embarrassment for The SNP before......it is, a big one. The greater matter though is his personal behaviour, disgrace, and possible criminality. You will probably note that most Con, Lab, Lib, and SNP MPs have stopped striking a self righteous pose when a member of an opposite party does things like this, let those without sin ......ect. 

 

I note that many social media britnats and Brexiteers are salivating over this guy's behaviour and, yet again, predicting the demise of the SNP, the independence movement and the resurgence of the Nasty Party. 

 

It's not as if we needed a reminder of how little these people understand about the independence movement or Scottish politics in general, but this failure to realise that independence ≠ the SNP and vice versa is, after all this time, frustrating. 

 

For the record, the SNP is the journey, not the destination. 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I note that many social media britnats and Brexiteers are salivating over this guy's behaviour and, yet again, predicting the demise of the SNP, the independence movement and the resurgence of the Nasty Party. 

 

It's not as if we needed a reminder of how little these people understand about the independence movement or Scottish politics in general, but this failure to realise that independence ≠ the SNP and vice versa is, after all this time, frustrating. 

 

For the record, the SNP is the journey, not the destination. 

I am still waiting for Alex Salmonds trial. what happened there?

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I am still waiting for Alex Salmonds trial. what happened there?

I believe the trial is scheduled to commence next month. Hopefully justice will prevail, unlike when the previous PM shredded hundreds of files on high profile child molesters. 

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I believe the trial is scheduled to commence next month. Hopefully justice will prevail, unlike when the previous PM shredded hundreds of files on high profile child molesters. 

May?

 

[Nigel Garvie]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

May?

 

Guessing that wasn't trial in the month of May, but Theresa May, or maybe a clever double meaning. I believe the Dickson file was handed by Thatcher to Leon Brittan and it was brushed under the carpet. There was talk of a paedo ring. Later the document had mysteriously disappeared. 

 

Don't quite me on this, from memory not from Google.

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

May?

 

Yes, when she was Home Secretary 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_paedophile_dossier

[melvinmelvin]

40 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Guessing that wasn't trial in the month of May, but Theresa May, or maybe a clever double meaning. I believe the Dickson file was handed by Thatcher to Leon Brittan and it was brushed under the carpet. There was talk of a paedo ring. Later the document had mysteriously disappeared. 

 

Don't quite me on this, from memory not from Google.

the meaning was PM Th. May (ie the previous PM)

 

my command of E isn't good enough to play with ambiguities

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Yes, when she was Home Secretary 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_paedophile_dossier

ta, interesting

 

why on earth did all these female ring leaders resign?

 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I believe the trial is scheduled to commence next month. Hopefully justice will prevail, unlike when the previous PM shredded hundreds of files on high profile child molesters. 

 RR I don't care which party or country nonces are from. They deserve the same treatment. Castration.

If he is found guilty then I hope your opinion will change towards him.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Laughing Gravy

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

ta, interesting

 

why on earth did all these female ring leaders resign?

 

It's hard to fathom just how cack handed the government could be in their repeatedly appointing potentially compromised people. It's almost as if they wanted the whole thing to fall apart... 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 RR I don't care which party or country nonces are from. They deserve the same treatment. Castration.

If he is found guilty then I hope your opinion will change towards him.

You have no idea of my opinion towards salmond or Mackay, and I strongly object to any suggestion from you that I have expressed anything other than a desire to see justice served. 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You have no idea of my opinion towards salmond or Mackay, and I strongly object to any suggestion from you that I have expressed anything other than a desire to see justice served. 

My suggestion has not mentioned other than if he is found guilty. Yes  as you stated "Hopefully justice will prevail" and I agree.

 

So he wont be such an SNP poster boy if he is found guilty.

 

I can only read what has been mentioned against and I admit this is not court.

 

Some paper bag he has to fight out of that one.

 

You have mentioned Salmonds many times on these threads with regards to the referendum, once in a lifetime vote.

 

So I will ask you again after the trial what you think of him then.

 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

My suggestion has not mentioned other than if he is found guilty. Yes  as you stated "Hopefully justice will prevail" and I agree.

 

So he wont be such an SNP poster boy if he is found guilty.

 

I can only read what has been mentioned against and I admit this is not court.

 

Some paper bag he has to fight out of that one.

 

You have mentioned Salmonds many times on these threads with regards to the referendum, once in a lifetime vote.

 

So I will ask you again after the trial what you think of him then.

 

Feel free to go through my post history. I suspect that, where Salmond is concerned, you will find my expressed opinions restricted to:

 

He doesn't speak for me

He is smug and smarmy

He is a showman

 

That's about it. 

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Feel free to go through my post history. I suspect that, where Salmond is concerned, you will find my expressed opinions restricted to:

 

He doesn't speak for me

He is smug and smarmy

He is a showman

 

That's about it. 

Well point made. Let justice prevail then. Agree

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Laughing Gravy