Living in Thailand on an elite visa

[digeldoop5]

Hello,

 

I am 25, originally from and currently in Germany, however have spent 80% of the last 2 years in Thailand using tourist visas. Since I rather not get married anytime soon, don't want to bother with ED visa and so on, I am considering the 20 year elite visa.

I wish to leave Europe for good, cancel my rental apartment here and live in Thailand, at least for the close foreseeable future. I know that 20 years are a long time and I will probably leave to another country at some point. I wish to leave Germany as my primary residence address and live in Thailand on the elite visa. I have enough savings, investment returns and online job possibilities. After all, if things go down the drain I can always return to Germany in X years. Now the issue that arises is that the elite visa is a tourist visa if I know correctly, and I would not be allowed to work on it legally. (not online either!?)

 

My question in short, is anyone here living in Thailand using the Elite Visa and not having any primary residence in another country? If so, did this get you in trouble at any point? Would that make me theoretically a "homeless" nomad and live as a tourist for 20 years? How would I pay tax on my capital gains and co if I live on a tourist visa!?

 

 

[Captain Monday]

It is a great program. Why not try the 5 year deal first? I pay USA taxes and social security payments and sure it is different issues from Germany but not having a US physical address CAN be an issue for people, even retirees due to stupid investment and banking laws. Online work is a grey area. Keep on the down low no problems. You only bring in to Thailand funds earned in the previous year. My only Thai income is on Thai Bank account interest, and you can claim that that back up to a limit once you have a  tax id number which is easy to get. 

[digeldoop5]

5 minutes ago, Captain Monday said:

It is a great program. Why not try the 5 year deal first? I pay USA taxes and social security payments and sure it is different issues from Germany but not having a US physical address CAN be an issue for people, even retirees due to stupid investment and banking laws. Online work is a grey area. Keep on the down low no problems. You only bring in to Thailand funds earned in the previous year. My only Thai income is on Thai Bank account interest, and you can claim that that back up to a limit once you have a  tax id number which is easy to get. 

 

Thanks for your reply. My local bank told me I can keep my bank account as long as I keep them up to date with address changes.  By now we have many fin-tech online banks that make life a lot easier so banking is not much of a concern for me. I also have a Thai bank account with some funds already.

 

I read that before that online work is a grey area as all income is generated outside of Thailand.

 

In Europe (at least in Germany) I am not allowed to keep my primary residence here if I am not actually staying here, which results also me not having to pay my income tax here.

 

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

 

I am still unsure about whether I should try the 5 year one first, considered the amount saved if going straight for the 20 year one. That's something I need a few nights of sleep over before deciding ????

[NCC1701A]

56 minutes ago, digeldoop5 said:

My question in short, is anyone here living in Thailand using the Elite Visa and not having any primary residence in another country? If so, did this get you in trouble at any point?

i don't have a elite visa. but as an American I need to maintain a USA phone number to roam in Thailand to do banking transactions, i have a mail forwarding service for sending new credits cards and ATM cards and important mail, my primary form of USA ID is my California drivers license which has expired now which can make somethings very difficult like opening new accounts, banks get weird when you don't have enough transactions, one bank closed my accounts. not sure about Germany.  just some things to think about. good luck on your move.

[NCC1701A]

16 minutes ago, digeldoop5 said:

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

do they have a website?

 

[ubonjoe]

41 minutes ago, digeldoop5 said:

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

I am not aware of any embassy for a European country not issuing passports uness it was an emergency. Some do require you to register your residence here at the embassy to issue a passport.

[freeman01]

I am kind of a similar situation except not on an Elite visa but I do stay a total of 183 days or more on a tourist visa to be eligible for the tax residency.

 

First of all, nobody cares what kind of visa you use to stay in a country so don't worry about that.

In most countries you become a tax resident if you stay more than 183 days, more than half a year. If you don't stay anywhere that long, your home country will be able to claim taxes. Overall it's the banking mafia that will define your residency more than anything as you won't be able to open a bank account without proper proof of residence most of everywhere.

 

For now every time I get asked my address in my home country I give my last address which is the one on my current passport. I can see this becoming an issue if I ever get into some kind of trouble with the authorities but otherwise nobody gives a f really.

 

It seems a work permit would only be required by the Thai immigration dept if you work with a Thai based company or with Thai people, so any online freelance job or whatever online with a company or people outside of Thailand is fine to do on a tourist visa.

 

Regarding taxes it's a bit of a grey area however.

As a Territorial taxation country, Thailand only tax on income generated or earn inside Thailand, anything earned outside and not remitted in the country in the current year is not taxed.

 

That said, from my understanding and according to the law, if you perform an activities that can get classified as work performed on Thailand territory, whether or not the salary is paid oversea and remitted into Thailand, is considered taxable income. Exception in case the income is already taxed in a country that has a double taxation treaty with Thailand.

From my research it seems most people just bury their head in the sand on this by not declaring anything anywhere while working online job in Thailand, earning income and keeping it outside of Thailand. Apparently nobodies ever gets in trouble doing this it seems.

 

Investment outside of Thailand or management of a foreign company apparently does not qualify as work or as a job and therefore is not taxed as long as the profit is not remitted in the current tax year.

 

Important f you are involved with crypto, whatever you earned from crypto is considered Thailand income as the blockchain is everywhere they said ... A capital gain tax of 15% is due on crypto trading profit and interest or income earned from crypto would be considered taxable income by the revenue dept not matter what.

 

 

 

 

[freeman01]

btw, I strongly suggest you open an account with revolut, n26 and transferwise. I mean all of them and any other bank like provider you can think of while you can still provide a European proof of residence and get the visa card delivered before you leave, doesn't cost anything and can be very useful later. Play dumb when you move and never change your address with them unless they ask.

 

For instance in my case I can't get a transferwise debit card because it's not available with a registered Thai address of residence ... Also I had to cheat a bit to get the revolut card delivered in Thailand as its normaly not possible.

[trawler]

I have had a Elite Visa  since 2008,just renewed my lifetime 5 year visa for the 3rd time.I am a resident of Hk and have retired so while I cannot comment on the tax issues in Germany,I can say that the Elite visa satisfies my needs and does not bring the heartache or trepidation of renewing a yearly visa.Yes its expensive but therefore also brings benefits,If you have the spare cash and it does not impinge on your lifestyle at the moment then why not!

Cheers

[stat]

9 hours ago, digeldoop5 said:

 

In Europe (at least in Germany) I am not allowed to keep my primary residence here if I am not actually staying here, which results also me not having to pay my income tax here.

 

 

Not correct, sorry mate who told you this? If u have a permanent residence for 1 day in Germany you could be liable for capital gains tax in Germany if no other country claims you via a dba ie Thailand for 183 day stay.

 

https://www.deloitte-tax-news.de/arbeitnehmerentsendung-personal/thema-des-monats/wohnsitz-par-8-ao-und-gewoehnlicher-aufenthalt-par-9-ao.html

in german

 

The topic is very complicated in German tax law. However in real life usually you are not liable for German tax (meaning you do not get caught) if you do the "Abmeldebestätigung" i.e. state that you have no longer a permanent residence in GER. . You remember Boris Beckers tax troubles if you are German. You can keep German residence and tax liability for example by simply stating you life with your parents in Germany.

Edited December 13, 2019 by stat

[tjo o tjim]

At your age, I would strongly recommend you set up a company somewhere/anywhere that can be a bit of a constant for you.  Tax havens might make sense for this purpose.  Then, open a Thai subsidiary within a year or so of getting the EV, and use that for a real work permit.  Expecting to be able to take advantage of the Elite for a long time is going to be tricky unless you are a trust-fund baby.

 

If you don’t have right-to-work in a place then you are always on the edge.

[tjo o tjim]

11 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

i don't have a elite visa. but as an American I need to maintain a USA phone number to roam in Thailand to do banking transactions, i have a mail forwarding service for sending new credits cards and ATM cards and important mail, my primary form of USA ID is my California drivers license which has expired now which can make somethings very difficult like opening new accounts, banks get weird when you don't have enough transactions, one bank closed my accounts. not sure about Germany.  just some things to think about. good luck on your move.

Check out VOIP.ms for phone service, along with Bria for your phone for SMS.

 

Also, get a US Passport Card.
 

Guessing you are still liable for California taxes...

[ThaiBunny]

11 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

I need to maintain a USA phone number to roam in Thailand to do banking transactions

Because they will send you SMS, in which case you mean a mobile phone number? T-Mobile has a fairly basic service that doesn't cost much which should meet your needs. Otherwise I've friends here who sign up for Vonage for a landline number

[Chazar]

One thing you DO need to bear in mind is Thai Elite reserve the right to change their  rules at any time and are answerable to Thai immigration.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

Maintain those family ties, guys. I've watched people lose them over the most petty disagreements, and the price they paid was dear.

 

I use my mom's US address for everything. I maintain my US credit cards and bank account, and they're tied to that address. I still have to file taxes at that address, for my student loans. I never have to pay as long as they keep seeing my meager Thai income.

 

My mom's pretty old already, but eventually she'll get older, and is going to need help. Then I've got a place to stay. With the way things are here, I'm certainly not staying in Thailand indefinitely.

[NCC1701A]

4 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

Check out VOIP.ms for phone service, along with Bria for your phone for SMS.

 

Also, get a US Passport Card.
 

Guessing you are still liable for California taxes...

 

 

i have a us passport card

 

no taxes for california. i am a stateless person. 

[NCC1701A]

4 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Because they will send you SMS, in which case you mean a mobile phone number? T-Mobile has a fairly basic service that doesn't cost much which should meet your needs. Otherwise I've friends here who sign up for Vonage for a landline number

yes and i have tmobile. $3 a month. thank you.

[looking for LIFE insurance]

6 hours ago, Chazar said:

One thing you DO need to bear in mind is Thai Elite reserve the right to change their  rules at any time and are answerable to Thai immigration.

I have the TE Lifetime Visa which I purchased about 20 yrs ago.  This was the only option with TE back then (1M BHT).

While back then Taksin Era, they almost went out of business several times, they ALWAYS HONORED my Visa.  I'm on my 4th 5 year Visa.  They amended several perks, which I don't care, as my goal was to find a streamline, hassle free (minimum contact with immigration)

way to live peacefully in Thailand.

From experience, you will have ZERO issues with the Visa.

I can also sell my visa to another expat which they can use for life.

I think you should live here (anywhere) continuously for 12 months prior to any commitments.

There are a lot of frustrated, malcontents, on this forum.  You should decide if this is really where to want to live...

[toolpush]

1 hour ago, looking for LIFE insurance said:

I have the TE Lifetime Visa which I purchased about 20 yrs ago.  This was the only option with TE back then (1M BHT).

While back then Taksin Era, they almost went out of business several times, they ALWAYS HONORED my Visa.  I'm on my 4th 5 year Visa.  They amended several perks, which I don't care, as my goal was to find a streamline, hassle free (minimum contact with immigration)

way to live peacefully in Thailand.

From experience, you will have ZERO issues with the Visa.

I can also sell my visa to another expat which they can use for life.

I think you should live here (anywhere) continuously for 12 months prior to any commitments.

There are a lot of frustrated, malcontents, on this forum.  You should decide if this is really where to want to live...

I may be wrong, but I believe that once you sell it, it is then only good for another 30 years, not life. I was talking to a Korean fellow who had one for sale and that is what he told me.

[cerox]

How much do you sell it for?

Is it 3month per extension what I heard from the old TE visa?

[pikao]

21 hours ago, digeldoop5 said:

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

Not an issue. Whenever your passport expires (or got lost) you can apply for a new one. Either at the Embassy or at a Consulate (Ching Mai, Pattaya, Phuket). I got my new one from Phuket (so I can tell for sure that it's possible there)

Don't know about the other Consulates. Convenient was that Phuket Consulate staff fly to Koh Samui (I live on Koh Phangan) once a month and you can meet them there in a restaurant and do your things. Just look at their website.

Keep in mind that it will take several weeks to get a new PP. Apply well before expiry date

[gk10002000]

22 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

i don't have a elite visa. but as an American I need to maintain a USA phone number to roam in Thailand to do banking transactions, i have a mail forwarding service for sending new credits cards and ATM cards and important mail, my primary form of USA ID is my California drivers license which has expired now which can make somethings very difficult like opening new accounts, banks get weird when you don't have enough transactions, one bank closed my accounts. not sure about Germany.  just some things to think about. good luck on your move.

Yep I had one bank in which I kept just a savings account and it was just for that, emergency savings.  I did not touch it for many months then was shocked to see "dormant" fees taken out of it.   I complained loudly that it is just a savings account and I add to it once every year.  Bank refunded the fees and I closed the account.  Florida bank, can't even remember the name now. 

[Max69xl]

23 hours ago, digeldoop5 said:

 

Thanks for your reply. My local bank told me I can keep my bank account as long as I keep them up to date with address changes.  By now we have many fin-tech online banks that make life a lot easier so banking is not much of a concern for me. I also have a Thai bank account with some funds already.

 

I read that before that online work is a grey area as all income is generated outside of Thailand.

 

In Europe (at least in Germany) I am not allowed to keep my primary residence here if I am not actually staying here, which results also me not having to pay my income tax here.

 

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

 

I am still unsure about whether I should try the 5 year one first, considered the amount saved if going straight for the 20 year one. That's something I need a few nights of sleep over before deciding ????

Of course you can apply for a new passport at your embassy in BKK when your old one expires. How do you think german expats do it? 

[digeldoop5]

1 minute ago, Max69xl said:

Of course you can apply for a new passport at your embassy in BKK when your old one expires. How do you think german expats do it? 

 

I thought being on a non-immigrant visa and tourist visa would make a difference, but OK, that's cleared up then. 

[abrahamzvi]

23 hours ago, digeldoop5 said:

 

Thanks for your reply. My local bank told me I can keep my bank account as long as I keep them up to date with address changes.  By now we have many fin-tech online banks that make life a lot easier so banking is not much of a concern for me. I also have a Thai bank account with some funds already.

 

I read that before that online work is a grey area as all income is generated outside of Thailand.

 

In Europe (at least in Germany) I am not allowed to keep my primary residence here if I am not actually staying here, which results also me not having to pay my income tax here.

 

Another concern is my Passport, if it were to expire, can I just get a new one at the Embassy in Bangkok despite it not being an emergency?

 

I am still unsure about whether I should try the 5 year one first, considered the amount saved if going straight for the 20 year one. That's something I need a few nights of sleep over before deciding ????

As far as keeping your bank account(s) in Germany is concerned, there shouldn't be any difficulties. Regarding your residence in Germany, it's really up to you. strictly speaking if you have no place of residence you have to deregister (abmelden), but if you wish to remain registered in Germany (I wouldn't know why, as it would have no advantages), you can always register your address with a friend or a family.

 

There is no difficulty in obtaining or renewing passports at the German Embassy in Bangkok. However, if you deregister in Germany, it would be advisable to bring the deregstery confirmation ( you get it when you do register in Germany), as otherwise the Embassy will ask the authority where you are registered for permission.

 

Taxation is a different issue. If you deregister in Germany, you have to notify the Tax authorities that you no longer live in Germany and you have moved to Thailand. You will be asked if you intend to spend time in Germany and if so how long. If you can satisfy them that you will not spend a considerable time (longer than 180 days in a year), you will be granted a Taxation status (Steuerlicher Ausländer), which will allow you to avoid paying tax in Germany on most incomes emanating in or from Germany, and obviously on all other worldwide incomes. The situation in Thailand has been explained earlier above/

Good Luck!!!

[pikao]

15 minutes ago, abrahamzvi said:

but if you wish to remain registered in Germany (I wouldn't know why, as it would have no advantages), you can always register your address with a friend or a family.

Advantage can be health insurace. All the "travel insurances" also long term ones, require residency in Germany

[joni08]

Im here on Elite Visa, im 27. I lived in thailand 2 years on tourist and ED but same as you i didnt want to marry or keep study so i apply for the 5 years elite - best decision ever... i moved out of bangkok so i lost little bit benefices as elite service and limo but its ok, no hassle. I do my 90 days report online (when is working.. lol);

 

I keep pay my tax in Portugal (home country). Since i cant provide a document saying im paying tax another country i cannot take advantage of living outside of Portugal for tax purpose. So living here and paying tax there (quite bad, but its ok for now). I manage a foreigner business outside of thailand so its ok about thailand tax as well, dont have any kind of thai income.

For any kind of official docs, letters and everything else i keep my adress as my parents portuguese adress and always keep my portugal sim card on.

 

Bank accounts i have Portugal, Thailand and transferwise (digital).. Better option is always choose the most digital hassle free bank accounts from any country.

Edited December 14, 2019 by joni08

[stat]

2 hours ago, abrahamzvi said:

....

 

Taxation is a different issue. If you deregister in Germany, you have to notify the Tax authorities that you no longer live in Germany and you have moved to Thailand. You will be asked if you intend to spend time in Germany and if so how long. If you can satisfy them that you will not spend a considerable time (longer than 180 days in a year), you will be granted a Taxation status (Steuerlicher Ausländer), which will allow you to avoid paying tax in Germany on most incomes emanating in or from Germany, and obviously on all other worldwide incomes. The situation in Thailand has been explained earlier above/

Good Luck!!!

No questions were asked in my case from German IRS (Finanzamt) but they decided to pay my former abode a visit. After being told that I left the country they left me in peace.

Edited December 14, 2019 by stat

[racket]

I suggest you stay in Thailand with a METV. If issues arises that’s when you apply for elite, but the question is, do you pick the 5 yr program or the 20? I’m a digital nomad and have been residing here with a METV since 2015 and haven’t had any issues whatsoever, contrary to what some people have had bad experiences with immigration; I would say try to stay at least 3 months outside Thailand before you submit a new METV. The hard choice I see is that the 5 yr program cost 500k while the 20 goes for a million - so it would be obvious to spend the extra half to get another 15 years. It eventually comes down to if you really sure about the circumstances. One thing to note is that Thailand is becoming more and more expensive each year; the government elite wants this tourist spot to consist of high spender tourists, they no longer want the expats and the days are now gone for those who could just chill here with a low budget. With that said 20 years is very far into the future and if you are 100% certain that you’ll be financially capable moving forward then go for the elite once they start asking heavy questions about your stay with a regular visa, I’m currently waiting for that day but so far so good. No issues! 
 

Good luck!

[wasabi]

I am still debating between the 5 and 20 year. I realize on an annual basis the 20 year visa is the best deal if one stays in Thailand the majority of those 20 years. The difference between the 5 and 20 year visas in USD is about $40,000. (For the Family Excursion choice) I have done very well investing and am confident, but of course not 100% certain, I could double that extra 40,000 savings if I got the 5 year visa; in 5 years time when the next 5 year visa is due but once the money is committed to the Thai visa obviously it can't be invested, other than the fact the visa itself is a sort of investment since it coincidentally saves you about 40k over 20 years vs four 5 year Family Excursion visas.

 

If I don't at least double the 40k in 5 years and renew the Thailand Elite on a 5 year basis which comes at a higher annual premium that  40k savings of the 5 year visa would begin to decay and eclipse the money I saved upfront so it is a question how confident I am that I can invest and at least double that money vs just plunking down the cash and benefiting from the lower annual rate of the 20 year eventually eclipsing the benefit of saving 40k right now. 

 

There also is the question how confident am I that I will spend most of my time in Thailand over the next 20 years. I'd say it's likely but impossible for me to be sure. I can more easily predict I will be here for 5 more years.