Legionaires founder sexually abused 60 boys, religious order's report says

[webfact]

Legionaires founder sexually abused 60 boys, religious order's report says

By Philip Pullella

 

FILE PHOTO: Pope John Paul II (R) blesses Father Marcial Maciel, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, during a special audience in Paul VI hall at the Vatican November 30, 2004. REUTERS/Tony Gentile/File Photo

 

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Sexual abuse of minors was rife among superiors of the Legionaires of Christ Catholic religious order, with at least 60 boys abused by its founder Father Marcial Maciel, a report by the group showed.

 

The report is important because for decades until 2006, including during all of the pontificate of Pope John Paul, the Vatican dismissed accusations by seminarians that Maciel had abused them sexually, some when they were as young as 12.

 

The order said the report, which was released on Saturday and covers the period since Maciel founded it in his native Mexico in 1941 to this year, was "an additional attempt (by the Legionaires) to confront their history".

 

Maciel, who died in 2008, was perhaps the Roman Catholic Church's most notorious paedophile, even abusing children he had fathered secretly with at least two women while living a double life and being feted by the Vatican and Church conservatives.

 

Cardinal Angelo Sodano, 92, who was secretary of state under John Paul, was for years one of the Legionaires' biggest protectors in the Vatican.

 

Pope Francis accepted his resignation as dean of the college of cardinals on Saturday and simultaneously changed church law to limit the dean's position to a five-year term, rather than for life.

 

The Vatican first acknowledged Maciel's crimes in 2006, when former Pope Benedict ordered him to retire to a life of "prayer and penitence". But Benedict resisted calls from some in the Church who said the order should be dissolved because it was toxic to the core.

 

The Vatican instead took over the order in 2010 and began a process of reform.

 

The new report says that between 1941 and 2019, 175 minors were victims of abuse by 33 priests in the order. At least 60, or about one-third, were abused by Maciel himself, it said.

 

Most victims were boys between 11 and 16, it said.

 

ABUSE OF POWER

While the report said the 33 amounted to only 2.44% of the 1,353 priests ordained by the order, it said that nearly 43% of those who committed the abuse were in positions of authority, making it difficult to report or punish the abuse.

 

"(Abuse) was linked to the abuse of power and conscience on the part of some who took advantage of their posts to abuse," it said.

 

Of the 33, six have died, eight have left the priesthood, and one had left the order. Of the 18 who remain members, four have "ministerial restrictions" to keep them away from minors and 14 have no public priestly ministry, the report said.

 

Seventy-four seminarians studying for the priesthood also abused minors and 81% of them were not ordained.

 

Father Christian Borgogno, a former member of the order, said that the numbers of those abused were "clearly unlikely" to be accurate and believed that they were much higher.

 

"It is difficult to think that this is anything more than a whitewash of the (Legionaires') image," he said in a tweet. He said the reported lacked "independent sources".

 

After Maciel's death, Vatican investigations found that he had also fathered several children with at least two women, visited them regularly and sent them money. He also used drugs.

 

Former members have said the order was run like a cult, with rules forbidding any criticism of the founder or questioning of his motives.

 

They said Maciel gave huge contributions to the Vatican during the papacy of John Paul, who admired the Legionaires' orthodoxy and ability to produce vocations.

 

(Reporting by by Lizbeth Diaz and Philip Pullella; Editing by Catherine Evans and Alex Richardson)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-12-23

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[RJRS1301]

So more historical abuse admitted, what safeguards are there in place for those in the orders now?, and those kids in schools and acting as servers etc?
 

 

[PatOngo]

Castration without anesthetic for the filthy low life mongrel!

[colinneil]

The Vatican has a hell of a lot to answer for, been covering up for disgusting kiddy fiddlers for many many years.

Horrible load of disgusting perverts.

[ezzra]

42 minutes ago, webfact said:

the Legionaires of Christ Catholic religious order

How ironic, Christ, Catolic, and still sees nothing wrong with abusing children, but then again, sexual abuse is nothing new in the Catholic church as many such sase have been brought to light in recent years and went as high as this australia's cardinal Pell who's been found guilty for abusing children and now in jail...

[observer90210]

When the sick bastards of the Vatican and obviously under other orders of the church,  are not into their hateful habbits of pedophilia, they have been suspected to launder money and have ties with the italian mafia....

[finnishmen]

ALL catholic priest have apnormals, mads or pedofiles and need end all and no have in world more.

[Chazar]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

How ironic, Christ, Catolic, and still sees nothing wrong with abusing children, but then again, sexual abuse is nothing new in the Catholic church as many such sase have been brought to light in recent years and went as high as this australia's cardinal Pell who's been found guilty for abusing children and now in jail...

Also fine to  kill people who dont believe in many other religions or for the holy  war......all nonsense over a frikking FANTASY................more  sick than the child  molestors imo

[toofarnorth]

3 hours ago, PatOngo said:

Castration without anesthetic for the filthy low life mongrel!

If you mean Maciel you could be a bit late .

[Deerculler]

The Catholic church from the Vatican down is so corrupt it makes other corruption in the world look small.

 

 

[klauskunkel]

We have reports, we have admission of guilt and cover-up. Now what about voluntary financial restitution by the church?

Oh, I forgot - the abused will all go to paradise when they die... That's enough restitution.

[Baerboxer]

 

A Catholic Priest - a man who takes a vow of celibacy and should lead his "flock" morally: Fathers children with at lead two women who he "visits" regularly; sexually abuses huge amount of minors; takes illegal drugs.

 

Well, no surprises there then!

[xylophone]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

A Catholic Priest - a man who takes a vow of celibacy and should lead his "flock" morally: Fathers children with at lead two women who he "visits" regularly; sexually abuses huge amount of minors; takes illegal drugs.

 

Well, no surprises there then!

As long as he prays and asks for forgiveness on a daily basis, then everything is forgiven, and he can keep on doing that ad infinitum..........what a crock.

 

When I was a lad I lived next door to a Catholic family and every Sunday they would all traipse of to church to pray. And I knew the children of the family were always stealing sweets and other things from local shops, because I'd seen them do it, and occasionally they would boast about it, so I asked how they could do this when they were supposedly devout Christians, and the answer......... "every Sunday we go to church and ask for forgiveness then we can start doing it again on the Monday"!

[AhFarangJa]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

The Vatican first acknowledged Maciel's crimes in 2006, when former Pope Benedict ordered him to retire to a life of "prayer and penitence".

That is all right then. You have been a very naughty boy Maciel, so I want you to say a prayer to atone for all of your sins. what a crock of s***. If he was doing all this when he was supposed to be a pious individual then there is not much chance of him sitting in repentance is there.

Corrupt self serving pieces of dirt who close ranks and look after each other...... worse than politicians....

[George Aylesham]

According to the bible Jesus was in favour of the death penalty for those harming children. The method of execution he prescribed was original - a millstone round the the neck and drowning.

[Myran]

The pot calling the kettle black. The Catholic Church is rotten to the core and this is just a vague attempt at appearing to be doing something about it while they continue to cover up their most heinous crimes.

 

It is without a shred of doubt one of the most evil organizations in the world.

[bendejo]

Ain't nothing can't be absolved with a good Act of Contrition and 10 Hail Marys.

 

 

 

[JAG]

This is for me, and I am sure for many others, a very difficult matter. 

 

I am a Roman Catholic, was raised as a Catholic and have held to the faith throughout my life. I am a "practising Catholic" - heaven knows I have to practise, I am not very good at it! Now in my 60s my faith is central to my life. 

 

These people, and the despicable acts which they have committed, and the terrible harm which they have done to their victims are appalling sins. There is no defence to them, and I believe that the church has been wrong, terribly wrong, in attempting to hide, excuse or dismiss them. 

 

THere are two points which I would like to make. First, the teaching on confession and absolution. The Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation), whilst if the confession is properly and sincerely made offers spiritual absolution, conditional on a specific penance, it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts. Nor does it remove the requirement for trial, punishment or restitution. So whether it is pedophilia or stealing sweets, it still has to be paid for in an earthly sense. Moreover if the confession is made with the intention of continuing to sin, then the absolution is not valid. So it is not a matter of an act of contrition and half a dozen Hail Marys, and off we go!

 

Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns. Many of them have been very good people. These vile creature we hear and talk about, whilst there seem many of them, and many are in powerful positions within the church, are not representative of the Roman Catholic Church. They are a aberration, and one which the church is struggling - perhaps failing - to deal with. That is a source of great sadness and concern to many like me.

 

I leave you with a thought - The Devil. He works in many ways, and it has been said that his greatest victory, is in persuading so many people that he does not exist!

[candide]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

This is for me, and I am sure for many others, a very difficult matter. 

 

I am a Roman Catholic, was raised as a Catholic and have held to the faith throughout my life. I am a "practising Catholic" - heaven knows I have to practise, I am not very good at it! Now in my 60s my faith is central to my life. 

 

These people, and the despicable acts which they have committed, and the terrible harm which they have done to their victims are appalling sins. There is no defence to them, and I believe that the church has been wrong, terribly wrong, in attempting to hide, excuse or dismiss them. 

 

THere are two points which I would like to make. First, the teaching on confession and absolution. The Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation), whilst if the confession is properly and sincerely made offers spiritual absolution, conditional on a specific penance, it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts. Nor does it remove the requirement for trial, punishment or restitution. So whether it is pedophilia or stealing sweets, it still has to be paid for in an earthly sense. Moreover if the confession is made with the intention of continuing to sin, then the absolution is not valid. So it is not a matter of an act of contrition and half a dozen Hail Marys, and off we go!

 

Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns. Many of them have been very good people. These vile creature we hear and talk about, whilst there seem many of them, and many are in powerful positions within the church, are not representative of the Roman Catholic Church. They are a aberration, and one which the church is struggling - perhaps failing - to deal with. That is a source of great sadness and concern to many like me.

 

I leave you with a thought - The Devil. He works in many ways, and it has been said that his greatest victory, is in persuading so many people that he does not exist!

I stopped believing but I agree with you. I only met good people and I guess most of them are.

 

As for the Devil, I think that releasing the celibacy obligation would significantly limit his reach. Ok, It's a long debate.....

[Inn Between]

I went through the Roman Catholic school system, and many of the teachers were nuns and sometimes priests, but the priests were usually higher up the ladder -- vice principal, etc. I don't know of anybody who was seriously violated by a priest -- only a couple of strange encounters friends had with novice priests, but the one prevailing memory of the nuns who taught is most of them being generally nasty and quick to administer corporal punishment.

 

There were very few that seemed content or even with a normal degree of happiness. I assumed that was the nature of existence for those who have chosen to live a life without NORMAL intimate contact -- something that is likely essential to a person's state of completeness. I've always maintained that the imposition of celibacy puts Catholic clergy in a position where many are obviously going to struggle greatly with sexual matters and finding contentment.

 

On top of that, not only are priests deprived of the true knowledge of intimacy, but they're expect to guide and advise other in such matters. It's absurd to my way of thinking, and the Catholic Church needs a serious makeover, bringing it somewhere close to the realities of people's nature and 21st century life.    

 

[White Christmas13]

On 12/23/2019 at 7:33 AM, observer90210 said:

When the sick bastards of the Vatican and obviously under other orders of the church,  are not into their hateful habbits of pedophilia, they have been suspected to launder money and have ties with the italian mafia....

That reminds me of the Godfather movies I just finished watching this week

all nine hours of it.

[JimmyTheMook]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:04 AM, finnishmen said:

ALL catholic priest have apnormals, mads or pedofiles and need end all and no have in world more.

 

It's worse than chicken night in Turkey.

[Samui Bodoh]

11 hours ago, JAG said:

This is for me, and I am sure for many others, a very difficult matter. 

 

I am a Roman Catholic, was raised as a Catholic and have held to the faith throughout my life. I am a "practising Catholic" - heaven knows I have to practise, I am not very good at it! Now in my 60s my faith is central to my life. 

 

These people, and the despicable acts which they have committed, and the terrible harm which they have done to their victims are appalling sins. There is no defence to them, and I believe that the church has been wrong, terribly wrong, in attempting to hide, excuse or dismiss them. 

 

THere are two points which I would like to make. First, the teaching on confession and absolution. The Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation), whilst if the confession is properly and sincerely made offers spiritual absolution, conditional on a specific penance, it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts. Nor does it remove the requirement for trial, punishment or restitution. So whether it is pedophilia or stealing sweets, it still has to be paid for in an earthly sense. Moreover if the confession is made with the intention of continuing to sin, then the absolution is not valid. So it is not a matter of an act of contrition and half a dozen Hail Marys, and off we go!

 

Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns. Many of them have been very good people. These vile creature we hear and talk about, whilst there seem many of them, and many are in powerful positions within the church, are not representative of the Roman Catholic Church. They are a aberration, and one which the church is struggling - perhaps failing - to deal with. That is a source of great sadness and concern to many like me.

 

I leave you with a thought - The Devil. He works in many ways, and it has been said that his greatest victory, is in persuading so many people that he does not exist!

What a steaming pile of <deleted>.

 

"...it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts..."

 

Yes, it does when you cover up evidence, silence the most vulnerable victims, use (abuse) your influence to keep things out of the public eye, and merely transfer the criminal to another spot where he can do it again. The Catholic Church has, over and over and over and over again protected its priests and other staff by hiding their crimes. To see one example, Google 'Mount Cashel Orphanage, Newfoundland, Canada' for one of thousands and thousands of genuine horror stories.

 

"...Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns...'

 

For what its worth, I have as well. However, I have also read about literally tens of thousands (and the real number is certainly much, much higher) of cases of child molestation and abuse by Catholic Church staff. And virtually every time I read about it, I also read about how the Church ignored the problem, usually for years and years. I read about how the Church tried to silence the victims. I read about how the Church either knew or suspected, but didn't act. I read about how the Church used its influence with the powerful and connected to shove it under the carpet. 

 

I am tired of hearing excuses and rationalizations on why the Catholic Church shouldn't be held accountable.

 

If Microsoft had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Sony had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If British Petroleum had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Carrefour had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If CP All had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If the World Bank had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If IOC had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Manchester United FC had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

Finally, one last point.

 

I hear Catholics defend their Church a lot, and each time I get more and more disheartened. Knowing what we already know (and leaving out all the new information on global child molestation and abuse that is coming; there are hundreds of on-going investigations globally and we know what they will say), I ask why aren't Catholics marching full force into the Vatican and demanding (not asking for, meekly) change?

 

What would Jesus do? (Hint; take that book you like to waive and read about Jesus in the temple with the money-lenders).

 

As above, I will leave you with a thought - if you are a member of a Church that has a record of child abuse and child molestation like the Catholic Church and you are still worshiping and donating money, what does that say about you?

 

 

[JAG]

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

What a steaming pile of <deleted>.

 

"...it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts..."

 

Yes, it does when you cover up evidence, silence the most vulnerable victims, use (abuse) your influence to keep things out of the public eye, and merely transfer the criminal to another spot where he can do it again. The Catholic Church has, over and over and over and over again protected its priests and other staff by hiding their crimes. To see one example, Google 'Mount Cashel Orphanage, Newfoundland, Canada' for one of thousands and thousands of genuine horror stories.

 

"...Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns...'

 

For what its worth, I have as well. However, I have also read about literally tens of thousands (and the real number is certainly much, much higher) of cases of child molestation and abuse by Catholic Church staff. And virtually every time I read about it, I also read about how the Church ignored the problem, usually for years and years. I read about how the Church tried to silence the victims. I read about how the Church either knew or suspected, but didn't act. I read about how the Church used its influence with the powerful and connected to shove it under the carpet. 

 

I am tired of hearing excuses and rationalizations on why the Catholic Church shouldn't be held accountable.

 

If Microsoft had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Sony had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If British Petroleum had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Carrefour had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If CP All had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If the World Bank had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If IOC had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

If Manchester United FC had a history of massive, wide-spread, international child abuse and molestation, it would be disbanded (and rightly so).

 

Finally, one last point.

 

I hear Catholics defend their Church a lot, and each time I get more and more disheartened. Knowing what we already know (and leaving out all the new information on global child molestation and abuse that is coming; there are hundreds of on-going investigations globally and we know what they will say), I ask why aren't Catholics marching full force into the Vatican and demanding (not asking for, meekly) change?

 

What would Jesus do? (Hint; take that book you like to waive and read about Jesus in the temple with the money-lenders).

 

As above, I will leave you with a thought - if you are a member of a Church that has a record of child abuse and child molestation like the Catholic Church and you are still worshiping and donating money, what does that say about you?

 

 

First, I was not defending, or excusing abuse and worse by members of the Catholic Church. I made it quite clear what my views on the matter were, and my distress at the Church's inadequate response to it. Yjr purpose of my post was first to correct a basic misunderstanding which had been repeated through the thread (the role of the Sacrament of Confession and the principal of absolution for sin) and second to lay out my views, feelings if you like, on the subject. You entirely failed to understand that.

 

Second, all those institutions and companies which you list are commercial undertakings governed by the corporate laws of the countries in which they operate. The Church is not, The individuals who belong to the church, and use it as a cloak for these activities are subject to these laws, and i have made quite clear that I believe that they should face trial and penalties. Nor do I accept that the Church should shelter them - I have made that clear as well. You seem to have entirely failed to understand that.

 

Third, legal actions to "disband" the Church, even if they were, by some amazing feat of global consensus, to be achieved, would not work, There are some 1.2 billion Catholics in the world - they are the Church. You simply can not tell 1.2 billion people to change their beliefs. It has been tried numerous times in many countries, including in the past in mine. It doesn't work. You seem to fail to understand that.

 

As for your final point - what do my views say about me - they are utterly contemptible, and were I in a position to do so  would tell you to your face, without mincing my words, why. Once again, apart from it's sheer unprovoked offensiveness, the comment reveals a basic lack of understanding - I do not worship the Church, I worship Almighty God.

 

You may find my post "a steaming pile of <deleted>.", yours is in places deeply offensive, and mostly so flawed in its basic understanding of my post, and the realities of the institution on which you comment, as to amount to utter <deleted>!

[RuamRudy]

19 hours ago, Myran said:

The pot calling the kettle black. The Catholic Church is rotten to the core and this is just a vague attempt at appearing to be doing something about it while they continue to cover up their most heinous crimes.

 

It is without a shred of doubt one of the most evil organizations in the world.

I think that time will tell it is an issue that is much wider spread than only within the Catholic church. I was trekking in Bhutan a few years back and in the middle of nowhere, hours and hours on foot from civilisation, we passed a Buddhist monastery completely cut off from the rest of the world. There was a big hall filled with maybe 40 or 50 boys who were chanting and reciting texts, and maybe 2 or 3 monks tutoring them, but no sign of any other adults anywhere. We only spent a few minutes there and I never saw anything untoward, but the whole thing seemed creepy and made me feel uneasy. While they may be entirely virtuous an innocent, I am sure that if the catholic church was infected with this disease, there is no reason to think that Buddhist monasteries or Muslim madrasas are not equally as prone to it. 

[Samui Bodoh]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

First, I was not defending, or excusing abuse and worse by members of the Catholic Church. I made it quite clear what my views on the matter were, and my distress at the Church's inadequate response to it. Yjr purpose of my post was first to correct a basic misunderstanding which had been repeated through the thread (the role of the Sacrament of Confession and the principal of absolution for sin) and second to lay out my views, feelings if you like, on the subject. You entirely failed to understand that.

 

Second, all those institutions and companies which you list are commercial undertakings governed by the corporate laws of the countries in which they operate. The Church is not, The individuals who belong to the church, and use it as a cloak for these activities are subject to these laws, and i have made quite clear that I believe that they should face trial and penalties. Nor do I accept that the Church should shelter them - I have made that clear as well. You seem to have entirely failed to understand that.

 

Third, legal actions to "disband" the Church, even if they were, by some amazing feat of global consensus, to be achieved, would not work, There are some 1.2 billion Catholics in the world - they are the Church. You simply can not tell 1.2 billion people to change their beliefs. It has been tried numerous times in many countries, including in the past in mine. It doesn't work. You seem to fail to understand that.

 

As for your final point - what do my views say about me - they are utterly contemptible, and were I in a position to do so  would tell you to your face, without mincing my words, why. Once again, apart from it's sheer unprovoked offensiveness, the comment reveals a basic lack of understanding - I do not worship the Church, I worship Almighty God.

 

You may find my post "a steaming pile of <deleted>.", yours is in places deeply offensive, and mostly so flawed in its basic understanding of my post, and the realities of the institution on which you comment, as to amount to utter <deleted>!

Hi JAG

 

I seem to have (unfortunately) crossed the line and insulted both you and your faith; that was not my intent and please accept my sincere apologies. 

 

I think that you have read many of my posts on religion over the years, and know that while I have spent a great deal of time with religious people, I am not religious myself. Further, I think you know that I believe deeply in Freedom of Religion and have argued that case here on numerous occasions. Finally, again I think you know, I have said many times here that religion is good for some people, some times (let's studiously avoid an argument on how that gets decided) but not for others at other times.

 

It is just that we profoundly disagree on some things.

 

I do understand your point(s) regarding the Absolution of Sin and the Sanctity of Confession, and yes some of the previous posters had it wrong. However, despite the theological guidance, the De Facto response of the Church to this sort of crime has been to hide it and keep it away from non-church/secular people and law. And, in my view, this is wrong. Deeply, deeply wrong. Officers of the Church should face secular law as much as anyone else, but historically they have not done so. If we agree on this, then great.

 

Yes, many/most of the institutions that I listed are commercial and/or public organizations. And yes, laws should apply to them as they should apply to the Church. The point that I was making is that the Church was hiding individuals from those laws, and that was wrong. Either of us can simply Google stuff and find recent cases where the Church sheltered people who should not have been sheltered; the links below are examples from CNN this year and there are many more in past years. To sum up, while the Church is officially in compliance with relevant laws, it has De Facto not been following them properly and this is a pattern that needs to change; I think we both agree on this.

 

I have no desire to 'disband' the Catholic Church and agree that it would be impossible to do so even if I wanted it. However, I very strongly feel that the Catholic Church really, really needs some public accountability, and needs to demonstrate very clearly that it is reforming itself. It needs to show that it is serious about, through both word and deed, stopping the crimes against children, or at very least utterly determined to get there; It has not done this in my view (again, see links below as examples of many possible stories). And, I would add, there is a middle ground that could be started today; lift the veil of secrecy around cases of suspected child abuse globally and let the chips fall where they may. Provide immediate compensation (in one form or another) to all identified victims. Open investigations into all allegations globally and even though the reputation of the Church would likely take a hit due to some bad information, take the hit anyway. Above all else, this issue needs to be dealt with, and dealt with in a manner that satisfies outsiders as well as Church-goers. I recall reading about pedophiles and child molesters in the Catholic Church decades ago, and I am seeing the same or similar stories still; the names and places change while the basic story does not. It needs to, and I am glad we agree on that.

 

Finally, when I say 'You', I am referring to Catholics in general, not you in particular. But, I do think Catholics need to be speaking out, and speaking out loudly, but I do not hear them much. I want to see the Catholic Church reformed to stop, once and for all, these odious crimes, but Catholics need to do it, not outsiders. So, yes, I am critical of Church-goers because I do not see the effort needed being made. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

I get that you have your belief in your God, and while I do not share it I am a bit envious of it; I can't imagine what having faith like that is like. I suspect that it is both very nice and very comforting.

 

Finally, it is Christmas day, so let us put an end to this fight. If you promise not to punch me in the face if we ever meet, I'll promise to make greater effort in my choice of words.

 

Deal?

 

Merry Christmas to you and yours

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/26/europe/luk-delft-update-whereabouts-intl/index.html

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/us/catholic-priests-sex-abuse-colorado/index.html

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/14/us/new-mexico-former-catholic-priest-sentence/index.html

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/07/europe/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-intl/index.html

 

 

[JAG]

Deal, Merry Christmas!

[jak2002003]

18 hours ago, JAG said:

This is for me, and I am sure for many others, a very difficult matter. 

 

I am a Roman Catholic, was raised as a Catholic and have held to the faith throughout my life. I am a "practising Catholic" - heaven knows I have to practise, I am not very good at it! Now in my 60s my faith is central to my life. 

 

These people, and the despicable acts which they have committed, and the terrible harm which they have done to their victims are appalling sins. There is no defence to them, and I believe that the church has been wrong, terribly wrong, in attempting to hide, excuse or dismiss them. 

 

THere are two points which I would like to make. First, the teaching on confession and absolution. The Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation), whilst if the confession is properly and sincerely made offers spiritual absolution, conditional on a specific penance, it does not absolve the sinner from ANY of the worldly consequences or sanctions of his acts. Nor does it remove the requirement for trial, punishment or restitution. So whether it is pedophilia or stealing sweets, it still has to be paid for in an earthly sense. Moreover if the confession is made with the intention of continuing to sin, then the absolution is not valid. So it is not a matter of an act of contrition and half a dozen Hail Marys, and off we go!

 

Secondly, I have over the years known many clerics and religious, priests, monks and nuns. Many of them have been very good people. These vile creature we hear and talk about, whilst there seem many of them, and many are in powerful positions within the church, are not representative of the Roman Catholic Church. They are a aberration, and one which the church is struggling - perhaps failing - to deal with. That is a source of great sadness and concern to many like me.

 

I leave you with a thought - The Devil. He works in many ways, and it has been said that his greatest victory, is in persuading so many people that he does not exist!

How can you talk such nonsense?  Surely, if you really are a true Catholic you believe your god is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing.  You believe the pope is in directed communication with this god.

 

So how come your god knew about all these children getting abused and molested by all these people and he did nothing? These children were fellow Christians too... all praying to him to help them.  Yet he still does nothing.... is that part of his 'mysterious plan'?

 

Either he knew and did not care, or he knew and approved, as he knows even every thought we have.  

 

Yet this is not enough to tell you your god and religion might be all lies?  It is probably hard for you to even think logically about these things as your have been basically brainwashed since a child and grew up every day of your life with this religion.  

[CharlieH]

Reported derogatory generalisation removed.

[bristolboy]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:46 PM, George Aylesham said:

According to the bible Jesus was in favour of the death penalty for those harming children. The method of execution he prescribed was original - a millstone round the the neck and drowning.

Actually, here's the original text:

"And whoever shall cause to stumble one of these of the little ones believing in Me, it is better for him that a heavy millstone should be hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea."

https://biblehub.com/matthew/18-6.htm

Given the context, it is clear that Jesus was not talking about sexual abuse, or even really about children. But rather about leading people in general into sin. And given the mode of the verb in the second sentence, it seems likely that it means rather than lead children into sin, it would be better to die that death.