UK Pensions and related info

[Lazy Sod]

6 minutes ago, Lazy Sod said:

Is my UK pension annuity (with UK pension provider) subject to UK income tax?

I'm a British Citizen living permanently in Thailand for 30 years, coming up to retirement (in Thailand).

Non-resident in the UK for tax purposes, no question about that.

 

Question: is my UK pension annuity income subject to UK income tax?

 

I ask because there is conflicting information.

HMRC website appears to say no as below, but I've found other websites, particularly financial advisors which say yes. Totally confused!!!

 https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#:~:text=If you live abroad but,the country you live in.

"If you’re not a UK resident, you don’t usually pay UK tax on your pension. But you might have to pay tax in the country you live in. There are a few exceptions - for example, UK civil service pensions will always be taxed in the UK."

[Tiber]

7 hours ago, Madgee said:

Err, I'm not quite old enough to receive my UK state pension yet so stop your wild assumptions about people's state of finances. 
Cornflakes for brekkie eh..... Go on, you'll be telling me they're Kellogg's next!  Enjoy your (cold) day. 
 

 

  "not quite old enough to receive SP",so not involved eh, not a clue about consequences re: frozen

 

  Not hard to realise tho the frozen bunch feelings at this moment in time,£900 a year not coming their way,  lot more including compounding, which could easily add  50% more to someone frozen for donkeys years, imagine £1500 quid lost just in one year, with more to come,   which I know bitter and envious commentators can be, in fact I think some cruel comments do come my way, lol

 

  Still never mind eh!    By the way I did tell a lie, not Kellogg's corn flakes but CocoPops ,and  good time of year to be in UK, its beautiful   spring  springing ,bloody gardener waking me up cutting the grass

 

  Just to finish  as you yourself state....     "As I've stated many times before, UP 2 YOU. Over and out. "       You got your battery re charged I see

[Madgee]

1 hour ago, Lazy Sod said:

Question: is my UK pension annuity income subject to UK income tax?

Any income above the personal allowance of £12,570 is subject to tax. I'm afraid that includes income from a private pension.

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, Lazy Sod said:

Is my UK pension annuity (with UK pension provider) subject to UK income tax?

I'm a British Citizen living permanently in Thailand for 30 years, coming up to retirement (in Thailand).

Non-resident in the UK for tax purposes, no question about that.

 

Question: is my UK pension annuity income subject to UK income tax?

 

Well one thing you will have to consider is if it is conventional Annuity, purchased from a money purchase pension fund, is that the UK tax free lump sum oprtion, may not be tax free if you are Thai Tax resident, and you send it to Thailand.

 

Most UK annuities, SIPP drawdown, etc are taxed at source in the UK. 

 

If you are buying an annuity with a pile of cash that's different as the monthly payment will have a return of capital element and a taxable income element. 

 

Not a simple yes no answer.

 

Super caution if you are tempted to transfer to an overseas provider, slightest discrepancy and a 55% tax charge could be made.

Edited March 5 by UKresonant

[UKresonant]

6 hours ago, Lazy Sod said:

I ask because there is conflicting information.

HMRC website appears to say no as below, but I've found other websites, particularly financial advisors which say yes. Totally confused!!!

 https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#:~:text=If you live abroad but,the country you live in.

"If you’re not a UK resident, you don’t usually pay UK tax on your pension. But you might have to pay tax in the country you live in. There are a few exceptions - for example, UK civil service pensions will always be taxed in the UK."

The fact that you have been in Thailand so long they may allow that (no deduction at source), under their discretionary authority you could be non domicile. 

If you google search HMRC form 'DT-Individual', it appears that they don't perhaps do that for Thailand. Read it in conjuction with the double taxation treaty digest 2018.

(I'm just on the phone so don't have the links to attach till home and on the PC.)

 

Some years ago, when I took a few of my early pension benefits, I was not tax resident in Thailand, so as to avoid any issues.

 

This would be a good subject to inject into one of current Tax threads.

 

 

[UKresonant]

15 hours ago, Lazy Sod said:

I ask because there is conflicting information.

HMRC website appears to say no as below, but I've found other websites, particularly financial advisors which say yes. Totally confused!!!

 https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#:~:text=If you live abroad but,the country you live in.

"If you’re not a UK resident, you don’t usually pay UK tax on your pension. But you might have to pay tax in the country you live in. There are a few exceptions - for example, UK civil service pensions will always be taxed in the UK."

Links I mentioned previously

 

See page 34 Thailand  OTHER PENSIONS / ANNUITIES = No relief (See Note 4)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/paye-manual/paye81030

No relief

No exemption from UK income tax can be applied to the income concerned. It will remain liable to UK tax at the appropriate rates.

 

 

Page 7. "HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) publishes the Digest of Double Taxation Treaties (the DT Digest) which contains a summary of the relief available under each DT treaty."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

 

Annuities and other than Gov pensions do not have a specific article in;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

It does have Article 23 (3)

 

 

You retain your UK personal allowance in the UK if you are a British citizen (along with others noted), in relation to UK tax. 

 

 

Edited March 6 by UKresonant

[transam]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:18 PM, theoldgit said:

 

Both were required to pay back the overpayment and both agreed a penalty to avoid being charged.

One had his pension suspended whilst being investigated as it was believed he acted with criminal intent. he was using a relatives address, his daughter, she was given a hard time as she worked for the MoJ. 

Worth remembering, stuff does happen...😉

Edited March 7 by transam

[Tiber]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Worth remembering, stuff does happen...😉

  

   "stuff "stuff" meaning what exactly?, not a criminal offence, fact is it is not an offense, Rules and regulations ,  Again its "somebody else", if he wants to put something up to prove his point....welcome.

Another posting of same ilk

 

"The folk I know who were caught never went to court, they settled it with pensions. Paid back what they wanted and paid the fine, which I think was a £1000 quid   .Bit of a story? (sic), ... but my friend got away with the 1000 quid fine,               

 

 bit of of a story?,  Ill say  "  but my friend got away with the 1000 quid fine.".....you sure it was not disability payment?. You did state earlier it was brain damage he had,  (around 14/8/22)    have to look it u   Ill do it later   lol, now that is a million miles off State pension

 

 

 

   

[Tiber]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:37 AM, transam said:

The folk I know who were caught never went to court, they settled it with pensions. Paid back what they wanted and paid the fine, which I think was a 1000 quid. Bit of a story, but my friend got away with the 1000 quid fine.. 

Found it

    A fine of £1000 and paid back with pensions, something  there about £13000,"they" meaning more than one, some bad characters around, wicked, really wicked

[transam]

8 hours ago, Tiber said:

  

   "stuff "stuff" meaning what exactly?, not a criminal offence, fact is it is not an offense, Rules and regulations ,  Again its "somebody else", if he wants to put something up to prove his point....welcome.

Another posting of same ilk

 

"The folk I know who were caught never went to court, they settled it with pensions. Paid back what they wanted and paid the fine, which I think was a £1000 quid   .Bit of a story? (sic), ... but my friend got away with the 1000 quid fine,               

 

 bit of of a story?,  Ill say  "  but my friend got away with the 1000 quid fine.".....you sure it was not disability payment?. You did state earlier it was brain damage he had,  (around 14/8/22)    have to look it u   Ill do it later   lol, now that is a million miles off State pension

 

 

 

   

😂...............Which of your usernames would you like me to use to not talk to you.....?......😂

[transam]

8 hours ago, Tiber said:

Found it

    A fine of £1000 and paid back with pensions, something  there about £13000,"they" meaning more than one, some bad characters around, wicked, really wicked

Your input is becoming amusing instead of me taking it seriously........🤣

Do you actually think folk here are going to risk taking your advice on committing fraud over a few pension quid.

It is sad that you find yourself in a position to commit UK pension fraud, I am sure most feel a bit sorry for you, but me, no, you will only be happy when someone falls into your trap and gets a problem...

 

But as I said, your efforts at convincing folk to commit fraud is amusing, and I am surprised this forum allows you to do it, but that's another story, eh,........🤭

[Tiber]

On 6/1/2020 at 7:01 AM, transam said:

Thank you TOG, you have confirmed I probably am not a liar ....

 

On 5/12/2020 at 5:25 AM, transam said:

You can call me a liar if you like, you have my permission this one time as you know all the facts out there....????

 

My chum was caught out being overpaid, he paid the extra back, his pension was not stopped but it was reduced to the time he came to LOS...That is fact....????

    You mean  of course Pension Credit, or and Disability Pension

On 6/1/2020 at 7:13 AM, transam said:

I can tell you about my cases.

They never went to court, just got 1000 quid fine and repay the over payment figure.

One didn't get the fine because he had a brain something-or-other and his UK sister did his paperwork, but he had to pay back the over payments, his pension payment went back to the figure he would have got when he moved to LOS. They did their homework and told him when that was....

 

11 hours ago, transam said:

Your input is becoming amusing instead of me taking it seriously........🤣

Do you actually think folk here are going to risk taking your advice on committing fraud over a few pension quid.

It is sad that you find yourself in a position to commit UK pension fraud, I am sure most feel a bit sorry for you, but me, no, you will only be happy when someone falls into your trap and gets a problem...

 

But as I said, your efforts at convincing folk to commit fraud is amusing, and I am surprised this forum allows you to do it, but that's another story, eh,........🤭

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud  again.   https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

If I  may direct you to DWP regulations, and of course directly, repeat directly, relate to State Pension    thank you. 

  If you yourself kindly direct me to anything that directly opposes the DWP statement on State Pension, of course eliminating anything that may blur your statement   ie  Pension Credit/Disability /sickness/ housing/universal credit it would again be most appreciated  would be deeply appreciated  Thanking You

 

A feather in your cap, and I mean it really is, if as you ascertain that DWP regulatory authors are wrongly publishing wrongful content, really a huge thank...thank you

 

Realisation homes in here!" taking your advice on committing fraud over a few pension quid".  as you quote above  "Few pension quid?"   £900 this up and coming year, I estimate I'm £4000 a year ahead of you

 

  A few camp followers   frozen pit wallowers, now I see down from 9

[cleopatra2]

15 minutes ago, Tiber said:

 

    You mean  of course Pension Credit, or and Disability Pension

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud  again.   https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

If I  may direct you to DWP regulations, and of course directly, repeat directly, relate to State Pension    thank you. 

  If you yourself kindly direct me to anything that directly opposes the DWP statement on State Pension, of course eliminating anything that may blur your statement   ie  Pension Credit/Disability /sickness/ housing/universal credit it would again be most appreciated  would be deeply appreciated  Thanking You

 

A feather in your cap, and I mean it really is, if as you ascertain that DWP regulatory authors are wrongly publishing wrongful content, really a huge thank...thank you

 

Realisation homes in here!" taking your advice on committing fraud over a few pension quid".  as you quote above  "Few pension quid?"   £900 this up and coming year, I estimate I'm £4000 a year ahead of you

 

  A few camp followers   frozen pit wallowers, now I see down from 9

You are talking rubbish.

The statements/guidance you are quoting states that the Benefit cannot be reduced. This simply means that the DWP have to credit the claimant , in this case a pensioner with the value of the state pension. 

Take note it's states the Benefit. It does not state the claimant must receive the benefit in full. 

As an example a person who claims housing benefit may have the benefit paid direct to the council , landlord or to their bank account. Regardless how the housing benefit is paid the claimant is still regarded as receiving the benefit amount.

 

However let's just assume your position is correct  in the case of a charge of benefit fraud on the state pension.

 

The CPS guidelines on such a situation is that the DWP does not commence criminal charges but use the civils powers available.

Thus the DWP start proceedings to apply a fine for failure to notify a change of circumstances without reasonable excuse.

They then calculate the overpayment and request the repayment. Failure to reach an agreement , the overpayment on accounts legislation allow the DWP to deduct amounts from the state pension to clear any outstanding debt.

It now should be obvious that the DWP has not charged the pensioner with fraud thus the statement)guidance about sanctionable / non sanctionable benefits is moot.

[Tiber]

12 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

You are talking rubbish.

The statements/guidance you are quoting states that the Benefit cannot be reduced. This simply means that the DWP have to credit the claimant , in this case a pensioner with the value of the state pension. 

Take note it's states the Benefit. It does not state the claimant must receive the benefit in full. 

As an example a person who claims housing benefit may have the benefit paid direct to the council , landlord or to their bank account. Regardless how the housing benefit is paid the claimant is still regarded as receiving the benefit amount.

 

However let's just assume your position is correct  in the case of a charge of benefit fraud on the state pension.

 

The CPS guidelines on such a situation is that the DWP does not commence criminal charges but use the civils powers available.

Thus the DWP start proceedings to apply a fine for failure to notify a change of circumstances without reasonable excuse.

They then calculate the overpayment and request the repayment. Failure to reach an agreement , the overpayment on accounts legislation allow the DWP to deduct amounts from the state pension to clear any outstanding debt.

It now should be obvious that the DWP has not charged the pensioner with fraud thus the statement)guidance about sanctionable / non sanctionable benefits is moot.

Benefits that cannot be reduced or stopped

The following benefits cannot be reduced or stopped if you commit benefit fraud:              State Pension

 

Cannot be reduced or stopped

   

No moot

•  

[Tiber]

...and if I may quote SP is classed as a" disqualifying pension" as you were reminded of a while ago

 

   Nothing moot about that

[cleopatra2]

37 minutes ago, Tiber said:

Benefits that cannot be reduced or stopped

The following benefits cannot be reduced or stopped if you commit benefit fraud:              State Pension

 

Cannot be reduced or stopped

   

No moot

•  

Like I pointed out .

Your presumption is flawed at a basic level.

The guidance you refer to states 

If you are charged with benefit fraud 

There is no obligation on behalf of the DWP to commence criminal proceedings, or even make a claim of fraud. There are other possible criminal charges available other than fraud.

The DWP can and are recommended in such cases to use the civil powers available.

In addition the overpayment calculation and recovery are separate from any criminal proceedings.

[Tiber]

8 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Like I pointed out .

Your presumption is flawed at a basic level.

The guidance you refer to states 

If you are charged with benefit fraud 

There is no obligation on behalf of the DWP to commence criminal proceedings, or even make a claim of fraud. There are other possible criminal charges available other than fraud.

The DWP can and are recommended in such cases to use the civil powers available.

In addition the overpayment calculation and recovery are separate from any criminal proceedings.

Like I pointed out repeatedly, yours is flawed.

      Any "over payment  " which has never been applied or will, see https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud is entirely covered by Disqualifying Sanction regulation, which confirms no stoppage /reduction to SP is possible

 

    No criminal/civil proceedings...  by the way   how are the fish?  lol.   

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

 

 

[transam]

12 hours ago, Tiber said:

 

    You mean  of course Pension Credit, or and Disability Pension

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud  again.   https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

If I  may direct you to DWP regulations, and of course directly, repeat directly, relate to State Pension    thank you. 

  If you yourself kindly direct me to anything that directly opposes the DWP statement on State Pension, of course eliminating anything that may blur your statement   ie  Pension Credit/Disability /sickness/ housing/universal credit it would again be most appreciated  would be deeply appreciated  Thanking You

 

A feather in your cap, and I mean it really is, if as you ascertain that DWP regulatory authors are wrongly publishing wrongful content, really a huge thank...thank you

 

Realisation homes in here!" taking your advice on committing fraud over a few pension quid".  as you quote above  "Few pension quid?"   £900 this up and coming year, I estimate I'm £4000 a year ahead of you

 

  A few camp followers   frozen pit wallowers, now I see down from 9

Good morning TB, I see you have been busy wasting your time again....😂

 

How's the weather in Blighty..........?  🤭

[cleopatra2]

10 hours ago, Tiber said:

Like I pointed out repeatedly, yours is flawed.

      Any "over payment  " which has never been applied or will, see https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud is entirely covered by Disqualifying Sanction regulation, which confirms no stoppage /reduction to SP is possible

 

    No criminal/civil proceedings...  by the way   how are the fish?  lol.   

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide#appendix-1

 

See section 5 , particularly section 5.8, 5.9 and appendix 1 

 

Which state that compulsary deductions can be made against the state pension benefit.

5.9 even provides an example where another benefit overpayment can be recovered from the state pension.

Edited March 9 by cleopatra2

[Tiber]

6 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide#appendix-1

 

See section 5 , particularly section 5.8, 5.9 and appendix 1 

 

Which state that compulsary deductions can be made against the state pension benefit.

5.9 even provides an example where another benefit overpayment can be recovered from the state pension.

bike+riding+without+pants+cycle+clips

 

I would include the important link with your posting

                                                                          5.8 (as applied) inc  5.9  appendix vvi  would be part of a judgement Regina v Mann   in laypersons language.....and example....

 

  Two pensioners ,state pensioner 1, state pensioner 2.     state Pensioner 1 dies,  state pensioner 2 continues receiving State pensioner 1 pension without informing authorities.   Then yes, is possible

[BritManToo]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:18 PM, theoldgit said:

Both were required to pay back the overpayment and both agreed a penalty to avoid being charged.

One had his pension suspended whilst being investigated as it was believed he acted with criminal intent. he was using a relatives address, his daughter, she was given a hard time as she worked for the MoJ. 

When dealing with the police, government and courts ALWAYS deny, ALWAYS make them go to court, NEVER settle.

Nearly all government organisations will attempt to frighten and intimidate the public into compliance.

Even with cases they have no chance of winning.

 

Court cases cost them a lot of time and money.

Custodial sentences cost them even more.

Edited March 9 by BritManToo

[Tiber]

I kept my gob shut on arrival in UK,but the extra money received from DWP  virtually £200 tax free every week makes a mockery of checks, NHS charges? I reckon Ill be quarter of a million £ when finished, nobody checks anything

 

  I admit I had police visit yesterday tho,have to be honest here, unlike others. Presume I  informed TV licencing guy, plus  rates dept guy to take a hike,Gawd close on £2000 a year rates, no way.  Good looking police woman ,sat,chatted,almost asked her if she would keep her uniform on while I .....

[Rimmer]

Baiting post removed

[chickenslegs]

I just looked at my Government Gateway account forecast for 2024/2025.

Despite me informing DWP and HMRC that I reside in Thailand (I informed them when I moved here in 2005) they are still adding the UK State Pension increase into my total income.

In the past 2 years HMRC has failed to collect the correct amount of income tax after my total income increased, due to receiving my state pension. I brought this to their attention more than one year ago and I paid around 1,800 GBP to set things straight.

Even now, having paid the tax I owe by direct deposit to HMRC (I don't dispute the total Bill) my Government Gateway account still shows that I owe 1,300 GBP -  (and the threat of penalties if I don't pay) and I will owe another 1,800 GBP next year.

My tax history is very simple. I have been in the PAYE system since I was 15 years old. I'm now 68.

Communicating with HMRC IME there are 3 options 1) Write a letter and get no reply, 2) Use the Gateway account and get no reply, 3) Phone call to HMRC - wait 30-40 minutes to speak to a human being then be informed that your issue is dealt with a different department who will call you back within 48 hours (but they don't). 

 

I was trying to make sure that I paid the correct amount of income tax (more than was deducted).

 

What an absolute shambles.

 

Rant over.

 

[CharlieH]

Trolling post and responses removed.

[Mutt Daeng]

5 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

I just looked at my Government Gateway account forecast for 2024/2025.

Despite me informing DWP and HMRC that I reside in Thailand (I informed them when I moved here in 2005) they are still adding the UK State Pension increase into my total income.

In the past 2 years HMRC has failed to collect the correct amount of income tax after my total income increased, due to receiving my state pension. I brought this to their attention more than one year ago and I paid around 1,800 GBP to set things straight.

Even now, having paid the tax I owe by direct deposit to HMRC (I don't dispute the total Bill) my Government Gateway account still shows that I owe 1,300 GBP -  (and the threat of penalties if I don't pay) and I will owe another 1,800 GBP next year.

My tax history is very simple. I have been in the PAYE system since I was 15 years old. I'm now 68.

Communicating with HMRC IME there are 3 options 1) Write a letter and get no reply, 2) Use the Gateway account and get no reply, 3) Phone call to HMRC - wait 30-40 minutes to speak to a human being then be informed that your issue is dealt with a different department who will call you back within 48 hours (but they don't). 

 

I was trying to make sure that I paid the correct amount of income tax (more than was deducted).

 

What an absolute shambles.

 

Rant over.

 

I have successfully used the HMRC web chat service to fix my tax codes 3-4 times. They fixed my tax code while I was chatting to them. The staff who man the service are very helpful & friendly. Obviously you need to use the chat during their business hours or you will be chatting to a "digital" assistant. As soon as I invoke the chat, I ask to speak to a real person and I sometimes have to wait a short while (usually less than 10 minutes) before a human starts to chat to me.

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/ask-hmrc/chat/online-services-helpdesk

[chickenslegs]

4 hours ago, Mutt Daeng said:

I have successfully used the HMRC web chat service to fix my tax codes 3-4 times. They fixed my tax code while I was chatting to them. The staff who man the service are very helpful & friendly. Obviously you need to use the chat during their business hours or you will be chatting to a "digital" assistant. As soon as I invoke the chat, I ask to speak to a real person and I sometimes have to wait a short while (usually less than 10 minutes) before a human starts to chat to me.

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/ask-hmrc/chat/online-services-helpdesk

I used the chat service a couple of weeks ago, after I read your previous post here. Yes, very helpful and confirmed that my payment was received. However, the advisor couldn't correct my Gateway account as that required a different department (simple Assessment Department). I'm still waiting for the promised call back.  

[Mutt Daeng]

5 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

I used the chat service a couple of weeks ago, after I read your previous post here. Yes, very helpful and confirmed that my payment was received. However, the advisor couldn't correct my Gateway account as that required a different department (simple Assessment Department). I'm still waiting for the promised call back.  

OK I see. My queries have always been sorted using the chat. Not sure what you mean by "correcting your gateway account". Can you elaborate?

[chickenslegs]

16 minutes ago, Mutt Daeng said:

OK I see. My queries have always been sorted using the chat. Not sure what you mean by "correcting your gateway account". Can you elaborate?

My Government Gateway account is showing that I owe 1,300+ GBP income tax from 2022/2023 and states that I will incur penalties if not paid by 27 March this year. I paid in December 2023.

[Mutt Daeng]

10 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

My Government Gateway account is showing that I owe 1,300+ GBP income tax from 2022/2023 and states that I will incur penalties if not paid by 27 March this year. I paid in December 2023.

OK Thanks for clarifying. Having not been in the same situation, I am unable to help. Sorry.