3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Zelensky doesn't want to get involved in US politics or get on Trump's bad side.  That's obvious to everyone who isn't wearing Trump blinders.

 

As I posted repeatedly, there is no upside to Zelensky antagonizing Trump, and considerable risk to his country.  Honorable leaders will lie to protect their country.  That is why Zelensky's statements can not be taken as truthful representations of what happened. 

 

Fortunately the facts, in the form of the phone call notes ("do us a favor" is as clear as "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse") and the sworn testimony of administration officials, make it clear that Trump wanted an announcement of BS investigations that would hurt his presumed Democratic opponent in the Presidential election.  Trump was interfering with "the very sacred election process" (Trump's words), which is an impeachable offense.

This guy KNOWS stuff huh? About what other people are thinking. Please don't tell where you get the coded messages from. I don't wanna know.

23 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Once again, an absurd claim unsupported by any evidence.  Apparently my request that you not provide an irrelevant link resulted in no link at all.

So are you saying that the Obama administration did not initiate spying on an opposition campaign prior to an election and govt agencies did not leak it to the media? 

 

Please tell me if you think this did not occur and why. 

13 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Zelensky doesn't want to get involved in US politics or get on Trump's bad side.  That's obvious to everyone who isn't wearing Trump blinders.

 

As I posted repeatedly, there is no upside to Zelensky antagonizing Trump, and considerable risk to his country.  Honorable leaders will lie to protect their country.  That is why Zelensky's statements can not be taken as truthful representations of what happened. 

 

Fortunately the facts, in the form of the phone call notes ("do us a favor" is as clear as "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse") and the sworn testimony of administration officials, make it clear that Trump wanted an announcement of BS investigations that would hurt his presumed Democratic opponent in the Presidential election.  Trump was interfering with "the very sacred election process" (Trump's words), which is an impeachable offense.

You have been told before Z had other channels to get his aid if threaten ! Try the US diplomats or the Foreign aid reps in the congress. It's a dem talking point your using . The aid was never denied anyway! Try something else that's more believable that deny's the key witness no, push .no pressure,no blackmail  

32 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Trump is notoriously thin-skinned and vengeful.  You think Zelensky would offend him with the truth regardless of the cost to Ukraine?

 

Zelensky probably knows US politics better than you.  Trump has the means to exact retribution regardless of any "bipartisan congressional consensus".  Also, history has shown that what Trump directs his Republican congressional lapdogs to do is usually obeyed, so the continuation of the bipartisan consensus is far from assured.

 

Interesting that you think telling the truth gives internal strength.  Trump must be totally devoid of such strength, it's a wonder he doesn't deflate like a balloon.

 

The entire Democrat case for impeachment is built on these kind of vague assumptions, theories, inferences, 

non-direct hearsay witnesses, superhuman hearing, emotional feelz all topped off with pathological hatred and desperation.

 

Z said he didn't feel pressured. Period.

You don't believe it, ask him again. And again.

Who cares about your biased theories about how Trump thinks and

how Z feels. This is surreal, ethereal nonsense that you are in no position to know.

So dont pretend you do.

 

14 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Z said he didn't feel pressured. Period.

Are u always so gullible, Zelensky said he didn’t feel pressured but he would never say otherwise because Ukraine needs US on its side and also the aids.
 

The problem with your convenient thinking is that you leave out the vital context and ignores the fact that Zelensky’s hands were tied by the necessities of his job and was heavily reliant on US aids while his men were dying fighting Russia sponsored separatists armed with lethal and modern weapons. 

 

11 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Are u always so gullible, Zelensky said he didn’t feel pressured but he would never say otherwise because Ukraine needs US on its side and also the aids.
 

nobody is interested in your thoughts and opinions..... lah!

Facts only please.

51 minutes ago, Chiphigh said:

So are you saying that the Obama administration did not initiate spying on an opposition campaign prior to an election and govt agencies did not leak it to the media? 

 

Please tell me if you think this did not occur and why. 

Please tell me what you are posting about.

 

You suggested in an earlier post that the Obama administration solicited foreign interference in an election.  Is the above in any way related?

 

1 hour ago, riclag said:

You have been told before Z had other channels to get his aid if threaten ! Try the US diplomats or the Foreign aid reps in the congress. It's a dem talking point your using . The aid was never denied anyway! Try something else that's more believable that deny's the key witness no, push .no pressure,no blackmail  

No, I haven't been told of "other channels to get his aid". 

 

The aid was approved by Congress, held up (illegally) by Trump, then released after he learned about the whistleblower report.  If you don't think that's suspicious you have serious Trump blinders in place.

43 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

The entire Democrat case for impeachment is built on these kind of vague assumptions, theories, inferences, 

non-direct hearsay witnesses, superhuman hearing, emotional feelz all topped off with pathological hatred and desperation.

 

Z said he didn't feel pressured. Period.

You don't believe it, ask him again. And again.

Who cares about your biased theories about how Trump thinks and

how Z feels. This is surreal, ethereal nonsense that you are in no position to know.

So dont pretend you do.

 

Published notes about the phone call and sworn testimony are not "vague assumptions, theories, inferences...". 

 

Zelensky's reasons for denying pressure have been explained, repeatedly.  His country is literally at gunpoint, he is not going to do anything to endanger Ukraine's ability to defend itself.  Ticking off Trump will endanger his country.

17 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

nobody is interested in your thoughts and opinions..... lah!

Facts only please.

Fact:  Ukraine is at war with its much more powerful neighbor.

Fact:  Russia has annexed part of Ukraine.

Fact:  Russia is supporting rebel forces that control part of Ukraine

Fact:  Ukraine needs US aid and international support to have any chance of surviving this war and negotiating some kind of reasonable end.

Fact:  Trump doesn't care about Ukraine and freaks out at anything that offends him.

Fact:  Confirming that Trump attempted to pressure Zelensky into publicly announcing investigations would have caused Trump to freak out.

A post in violation of fair policy has been removed:

 

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

 

Some inflammatory posts have been removed. 

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

A bit late, but show us an example of the Obama administration requesting foreign interference in an election.  Don't provide an irrelevant link and claim it proves something, provide a credible source and quote applicable parts of the source.

Are you actually trying to deny the Obama administration and govt agencies did not have govt agencies spy on an opposition campaign? The reports and evidence is everywhere. You can't deny that in any way. Unless you are delusional 

52 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Please tell me what you are posting about.

 

You suggested in an earlier post that the Obama administration solicited foreign interference in an election.  Is the above in any way related?

It is a reply to this previous post to illustrate the double standards :

 

you think asking for foreign interference in US elections is not an impeachable offense.  I disagree

40 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Fact:  Ukraine is at war with its much more powerful neighbor.

Fact:  Russia has annexed part of Ukraine.

Fact:  Russia is supporting rebel forces that control part of Ukraine

Fact:  Ukraine needs US aid and international support to have any chance of surviving this war and negotiating some kind of reasonable end.

Fact:  Trump doesn't care about Ukraine and freaks out at anything that offends him.

Fact:  Confirming that Trump attempted to pressure Zelensky into publicly announcing investigations would have caused Trump to freak out.

Facts 1,2,3 were done under the weak Obama administration. 

 

Facts 4,5:the only lethal defense aid was given under the Trump administration. 

 

It completely obliterates the points you've tried to make. 

After Patrick Philbin's excellent defense, I hope they are able to simply hold a successful vote that tosses this out quickly. His grounds are so solid that the House's entire proceeding was a sham. For the sake of the future, this should never be allowed again.

35 minutes ago, Chiphigh said:

Are you actually trying to deny the Obama administration and govt agencies did not have govt agencies spy on an opposition campaign? The reports and evidence is everywhere. You can't deny that in any way. Unless you are delusional 

I guess that the DOJ Inspector General is delusional too

DOJ inspector general refutes Trump claim that Obama tapped his wires

Department of Justice (DOJ) Inspector General Michael Horowitz said Wednesday that he found no evidence the FBI wiretapped anyone other than former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page in connection with its Russia investigation.

Horowitz’s comments at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing refuted a series of tweets sent by President Trump in March 2017 in which he claimed that Obama had his “wires tapped” at Trump Tower during the 2016 campaign.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/474134-doj-inspector-general-refutes-trump-claim-that-obama-tapped-his

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

I guess that the DOJ Inspector General is delusional too

DOJ inspector general refutes Trump claim that Obama tapped his wires

Department of Justice (DOJ) Inspector General Michael Horowitz said Wednesday that he found no evidence the FBI wiretapped anyone other than former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page in connection with its Russia investigation.

Horowitz’s comments at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing refuted a series of tweets sent by President Trump in March 2017 in which he claimed that Obama had his “wires tapped” at Trump Tower during the 2016 campaign.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/474134-doj-inspector-general-refutes-trump-claim-that-obama-tapped-his

Funny.

I guess Pam Bondi petty much destroyed the idea that Trump had no reason to be concerned about the Biden's and Burisma, and as the Democrats brought it up over 400 times I guess Hunter Biden does have something to do with this, as a witness? If they go there... that guy is gonna get torn to shreds... him and Daddy. They don't want that... for sure. 

58 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I guess that the DOJ Inspector General is delusional too

DOJ inspector general refutes Trump claim that Obama tapped his wires

Department of Justice (DOJ) Inspector General Michael Horowitz said Wednesday that he found no evidence the FBI wiretapped anyone other than former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page in connection with its Russia investigation.

Horowitz’s comments at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing refuted a series of tweets sent by President Trump in March 2017 in which he claimed that Obama had his “wires tapped” at Trump Tower during the 2016 campaign.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/474134-doj-inspector-general-refutes-trump-claim-that-obama-tapped-his

It went much deeper than that. Doj, CIA, nsc the fbi and the state department. 

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

No, I haven't been told of "other channels to get his aid". 

 

The aid was approved by Congress, held up (illegally) by Trump, then released after he learned about the whistleblower report.  If you don't think that's suspicious you have serious Trump blinders in place.

Suspicious  ! The radical dems have impeached the POTUS for suspicion  ! Their is no proof ! The progressive narrative that they can impeach for just about any reason has just thrown away any resemblance of executive privilege for the executive branch cause it only gets worse for the future office holders who try to use their constitutional prerogative (making the other branch go to court for subpoenas),so instead they invented he was obstructing congress by denying him of executive privelge,which the radical dem Nadler said was nonsense ! The radical dems couldn't find a crime, or prove illegality.The POTUS did everything he was in his right to do as the head of foreign policy,put on hold aid until  he vetted and his suspicions were satisfied for  the Ukraine President,which went to the Ukraine.  The money was on hold cause the POTUS was  suspicious also of the past,present and future corruption. 

 

The hate and unconstitutional actions by the radical dems are destroying the constitution!

 

 

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

I guess that the DOJ Inspector General is delusional too

DOJ inspector general refutes Trump claim that Obama tapped his wires

Department of Justice (DOJ) Inspector General Michael Horowitz said Wednesday that he found no evidence the FBI wiretapped anyone other than former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page in connection with its Russia investigation.

Horowitz’s comments at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing refuted a series of tweets sent by President Trump in March 2017 in which he claimed that Obama had his “wires tapped” at Trump Tower during the 2016 campaign.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/474134-doj-inspector-general-refutes-trump-claim-that-obama-tapped-his

Why would he find evidence! He is limited in scope as to who he can interview and investigate!

Anybody who touched the fisa's  is subjected to more scrutiny  by Durham not to mention they shouldn't feel exonerated . 

5 hours ago, riclag said:

Normal  conversation the key witness said! it was normal and no push which was  imop to mean no pressure ,which the Potus thought  he meant using English as Z's second language 

 

"Ukraine’s president, in his first public comments on the phone call that led to an impeachment inquiry into President Trump, said Wednesday that the call was “normal,” that “nobody pushed me,” and that he did not want to become entangled in American elections".

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/world/europe/zelensky-trump.html

He referred to the phone call only. "Read the text" he said. We know the pressure was exerted outside the call. In particular, funds were withold a few hours after the call. So the main pressure started after the call Z referred to in his reply.

3 minutes ago, candide said:

He referred to the phone call only. "Read the text" he said. We know the pressure was exerted outside the call. In particular, funds were withold a few hours after the call. So the main pressure started after the call Z referred to in his reply.

Come on man that was a September article! Z the lead witness has said normal ,no push,no blackmail on 3 separate occasions

7 hours ago, Chiphigh said:

Are you actually trying to deny the Obama administration and govt agencies did not have govt agencies spy on an opposition campaign? The reports and evidence is everywhere. You can't deny that in any way. Unless you are delusional 

Way off-topic, but:

The Obama administration and government agencies did not spy on opposition campaigns.  Some people who worked on opposition campaigns were investigated by the FBI for legitimate reasons unrelated to the campaign.

 

Are you stating that criminals and traitors should be left alone when they work for an election campaign.

7 hours ago, Chiphigh said:

It is a reply to this previous post to illustrate the double standards :

 

you think asking for foreign interference in US elections is not an impeachable offense.  I disagree

No, I'm the one consistently maintaining that asking for foreign interference in a US election is an impeachable offense.  I'm also challenging you to provide a credible source that the Obama administration did this, as you strongly suggested in post #515.

7 hours ago, Chiphigh said:

Facts 1,2,3 were done under the weak Obama administration. 

 

Facts 4,5:the only lethal defense aid was given under the Trump administration. 

 

It completely obliterates the points you've tried to make. 

Under "the weak Obama administration", the Ukrainian people overthrew a corrupt pro-Russian government.  That's what caused Russia to annex territory and start the war.

 

The Obama administration supplied significant non-lethal aid.  Under Trump lethal defense aid was provided, then withheld for the illegal purpose of initiating an investigation against a political opponent.

6 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

I guess Pam Bondi petty much destroyed the idea that Trump had no reason to be concerned about the Biden's and Burisma, and as the Democrats brought it up over 400 times I guess Hunter Biden does have something to do with this, as a witness? If they go there... that guy is gonna get torn to shreds... him and Daddy. They don't want that... for sure. 

Crooked Pam Bondi?  The Florida Attorney General who agreed not to join a lawsuit against Trump University in exchange for a $25,000 donation from Trump to her re-election campaign?  Not a person to trust.

 

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12242170/pam-bondi-trump-rnc-convention

https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/trump-contribution-to-pam-bondis-re-election-draws-more-scrutiny-to-her/2147796/

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/10/politics/pam-bondi-donald-trump-donation/index.html

 

Funny that some people thought Trump would "drain the swamp".

5 hours ago, riclag said:

Suspicious  ! The radical dems have impeached the POTUS for suspicion  ! Their is no proof ! The progressive narrative that they can impeach for just about any reason has just thrown away any resemblance of executive privilege for the executive branch cause it only gets worse for the future office holders who try to use their constitutional prerogative (making the other branch go to court for subpoenas),so instead they invented he was obstructing congress by denying him of executive privelge,which the radical dem Nadler said was nonsense ! The radical dems couldn't find a crime, or prove illegality.The POTUS did everything he was in his right to do as the head of foreign policy,put on hold aid until  he vetted and his suspicions were satisfied for  the Ukraine President,which went to the Ukraine.  The money was on hold cause the POTUS was  suspicious also of the past,present and future corruption. 

 

The hate and unconstitutional actions by the radical dems are destroying the constitution!

 

 

I won't bother with the whole post.  I'll just point out that Executive Privilege is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution, it has never been used in such an all-encompassing manner to thwart an investigation, and Trump did not hold up aid until "he vetted and his suspicions were satisfied", he held up aid until he learned about the whistleblower report.

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Why would he find evidence! He is limited in scope as to who he can interview and investigate!

Anybody who touched the fisa's  is subjected to more scrutiny  by Durham not to mention they shouldn't feel exonerated . 

Funny that immediately after a post in which you championed the use of Executive Privilege to limit who can be interviewed in an investigation, you complain about limiting the scope of an investigation and who can be interviewed.

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Why would he find evidence! He is limited in scope as to who he can interview and investigate!

Anybody who touched the fisa's  is subjected to more scrutiny  by Durham not to mention they shouldn't feel exonerated . 

What nonsense are you on about? If there was anything that Horowitz had license to do, it was to thoroughly investigate FISA and the FBI. And he found plenty to find fault with. But he specifically found that political bias played no part in the FBI investigation. 

Review of FBI's surveillance of Trump campaign aide doesn't 'vindicate anybody,' inspector general says

The report identified more than a dozen errors in the FBI's applications to monitor Page, including omissions and inaccuracies. However, Horowitz concluded the FBI was legally justified in launching the counterintelligence investigation into Russia and the Trump campaign.

His report debunked claims by President Donald Trump and his allies that political bias played a role in the FBI’s decision to investigate members of his campaign for possible coordination with Russia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/12/11/ig-report-horowitz-testify-his-fisa-findings-russia-probe/4387545002/