Illogical Thailand

[mrt273nva]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai’s minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

[Mid]

a poor educational system

this one gets a lot of the blame from ,

she , who must be obeyed .

[Jeffery Stanthorpe]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai’s minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

hi friend,

you sound like a troubled soul, i think you should try and loosen up and relax.

IMO ( in my opinion) a light course of a valium derived prescription medication would help.

Alcohol is also another good trick to have a more positive outlook in moderation ( of course )

take a leaf from the matrix movie and don't look at the spoon

take care

[WaiWai]

Take a look in the thread (in this, the General section) called something like, "Thai Men and Violence". An article by a Thai about Thai cultural values is pasted there. It's very useful. Suggest you read that and re-read from time to time.

On the whole, Thai behaviour derives more from feelings than logic, I'd say.

[macb]

I am not sure excatly what it is you are troubled about:

As a poster said earlier first you need to lighten up:

I have discovered over the time I have lived here, that you have to use some reverse physcology (probably spealt that wrong)

I have noticed that you could tell a close partner that something is not right, they would go immediately on the defensive and try and turn it round, but what they do is dwell on it i. e. that dont like to think you know better, but I general find the next day the subject has been thought about and maybe in a different way they agree with you or do something about.

Also there is the most important thing 'Losing Face' very important to Thais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php?blog=5...p;tb=1&pb=1

Well I dont know if this helps, I think its a case of we are in another country go with the flow why worry about THai Logic, the boots on the other foot as well we have some wierd ways as well which they cant work out.

[aussiestyle1983]

what a great thread this will become!

[mrt273nva]

Take a look in the thread (in this, the General section) called something like, "Thai Men and Violence". An article by a Thai about Thai cultural values is pasted there. It's very useful. Suggest you read that and re-read from time to time.

On the whole, Thai behaviour derives more from feelings than logic, I'd say.

thanks for that reference. it is the best essay i've ever read on the subject of thai characteristics. i feel a bit more enlightened now.

[CymruAmByth]

Happened this week.

The long-standing middle management government employee girlfriend came home HAMMERED OFF HER BOX!

Proceeded to puke all over me in her sleep (totally out of character!!!!)

I then stayed up all night to make sure she did not roll on to her back and kill herself by choking. Had to Google the risks of this for her in the morning to prove that people REALLY do die from vomiting whilst sleeping on their backs!

Morning comes....I unload a stern lesson on the hazards of being so drunk.

She......blames ME for the stern talking to and for ME being annoyed SHE puked on ME!

I asked "...who else there was to blame???"

No answer was forthcoming along with an absense of any logic other than I should not get so annoyed

I look forward to being puked on again (which would be the second time in 41 years) to gauge my reaction just to make sure I was not out of order the first time!

Edited April 4, 2007 by CymruAmByth

[Tywais]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand. Might look at a few things on this subject that might help understand the issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock

http://www.cie.uci.edu/world/shock.html

And a book I recommend is "Culture Shock: Thailand" by Robert Cooper. http://www.epinions.com/book-review-6DD4-4...-3A507A76-prod6

One other thing, culture shock does not necessarily happen in a few days, weeks or even months. It can show itself years down the road.

Edited April 4, 2007 by tywais
Added info

[cclub75]

Yes, this thread sounds good.

I went through the same path than you.

But eventually, I found a western label for the logic at work within the thai minds.

And it takes us back to the... Ancient Greeks.

Sophism.

I like very much this part of the article of Wikipedia.

"The essential claim of sophistry is that the actual logical validity of an argument is irrelevant (if not non-existent); it is only the ruling of the audience which ultimately determines whether a conclusion is considered "true" or not. By appealing to the prejudices and emotions of the judges, one can garner favorable treatment for one's side of the argument and cause a factually false position to be ruled true."

This allow us for instance to understand why the concept of "truth" or "lie" is highly... flexible for some thais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism

Thai politicians for instance are great sophists.

It's enough to peruse their statements, I mean, the link is obvious.

[mrt273nva]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

[ThaiGoon]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

I think racial segregation was(or still is) pretty illogical to me too. The way a certain group of people can be denied a service or has to be treated differently in pubic places because of the color of their skins was really illogical. So was the way one race of human beings could have the sense to hurd another race of human beings from half way around the world or another continent and then used them like animals and deprived them of any basic human rights....sometimes even butchered them because they dared try to learn to read. That's all pretty illogical to me.

But I know that not everyone from that race is(or was) like that. It's the same thing here. Some Thais don't know the concept of proper customer service, but others do. To tar them all the same brush seems very illogical to me, but perhaps it's not in the country where OP is from. Hmmm.

Edited April 4, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[CymruAmByth]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

On your behalf, I should invite this guy out with me and him and I could spend a day together while I try to sell to Thais....the opposite of your story.

I assure you....the same "Logic Free Zone" is there when you try to sell to them also. Maybe he would learn something...hahahaha....NOT!

Drives me nuts!

Edited April 4, 2007 by CymruAmByth

[Boon Mee]

She......blames ME for the stern talking to and for ME being annoyed SHE puked on ME!

I asked "...who else there was to blame???"

No answer was forthcoming along with an absense of any logic other than I should not get so annoyed

You've answered your own question.

Being judgemental and confrontational of another is the #1 Cardinal Sin in Thailand.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Boon Mee

[ThaiGoon]

In America, people still do get discrimiated against because of the color of their skins every day. Is that logical? I think not. Do I think all white Americans are like that? No I don't. When I got treated differently by some police officers here( in America) just because I'm Asian, I just thought they were just probably different from the rest of the American police force. The thought of, wow this country sure was a racist country, never came across my mind. But it's weird that on here you can see it on a regular basis that when someone has a bad experience with some Thai people, and they would just come here and ask why all Thai people acted like that. And they think that's logical.

Edited April 4, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Another thing that I found interesting in this story was that the lady who was nice and friendly to him must have been Thai. But MRT certainly wasn't bothered to mention it. Instead he chose the bad example (or apple) to ask why all Thais acted illogically. Interesting logic he has.

Edited April 4, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[cdnvic]

It doesn't help that every travel guide tries to sum up the character of a whole country into the same paragraph. Thai people believe... Thais are very.... etc

[Boon Mee]

Understanding Thais and their culture is like peeling an onion. The longer one is in LOS, knowledge and understanding you gain doesn't grow exponentially...

[cdnvic]

Understanding Thais and their culture is like peeling an onion.

There's occasionally tears involved.

[endure]

The English chef Keith Floyd (he'd fit in well round here - always p*ssed - talks complete bollux ) did a series of TV shows from Thailand. In one of them he interviewed a farang anthropologist who'd lived in Thailand for a number of years. One of the anthropologist's remarks has stuck in my mind - 'The Thais think with their hearts, not with their heads'.

[suegha]

The English chef Keith Floyd (he'd fit in well round here - always p*ssed - talks complete bollux ) did a series of TV shows from Thailand. In one of them he interviewed a farang anthropologist who'd lived in Thailand for a number of years. One of the anthropologist's remarks has stuck in my mind - 'The Thais think with their hearts, not with their heads'.

Yeah, and like every country in the world, some do, and some don't!

[mrt273nva]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Another thing that I found interesting in this story was that the lady who was nice and friendly to him must have been Thai. But MRT certainly wasn't bothered to mention it. Instead he chose the bad example (or apple) to ask why all Thais acted illogically. Interesting logic he has.

i did mention the friendly lady in the shop. and i am refering to a singular incident involving one person. one person that made me jaded yesterday. i can talk about more friendly thais than non friendly thais if you want me to. it will take up my whole day and i probably wouldnt get any response though.

just becuase i tell a story about one person you automatically asume that i am categorizing all thais.

geeze there is lots of expat bashing by expats on this forum.

[bendix]

When I first arrived here I used to think that Thailand and Thais were very illogical. Then it dawned on me. This is Thailand. It's me who is illogical to them.

After that, things either started to make sense or, if they didnt, I stopped worrying about them.

Now it's only the farangs who dont make sense to me anymore.

[meemiathai]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai’s minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

It is illogical to think that human beings are always logical.

But it is my strong belief that there is always a reason for something that happens.

[dumspero]

I agree 100% with being non-judgmental and working hard to see things as Thais see them (and agreed this can be a nearly meaningless generalization).

But something is either logical or illogical. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and our own perspectives. We're not entitled to our own facts or our own logic.

A thought I've often had in Thailand over the years is that I certainly can't say this way or that way of doing something is "wrong," and to the contrary, Thailand wouldn't be as wonderfully Thai if farangs like me were in charge, and that would be a tragedy.

But at the same time it would be bs to say that just any approach puts spaceships on the moon. Either the spaceship gets there or it doesn't, and it only gets there using objectively tried and true facts, science and reasoning. Hence, it seems to me there's plenty of room (and need) in the world for lots of ways of doing things, and the world is a more magical place for its diversity, but there are some factual boundaries to it all.

So in answer to the OP, there is no answer, except to relax and enjoy the wonderful experience of living in a place so magically different.

Guess I should get back to work...but it is more fun to ramble here..

[meemiathai]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

This one is easy then. Easy to be explained in a logical way.

This thai man could have had a lot of bad experiences with farangs(whether it is his own fault or the farangs'). He might not have a good ability of understanding people. He is unable to think in way that just because one farang is bad doesn't mean every farang is too. Human beings are not perfect. Everyone has shortcomings. Simply avoid these people. Let him face his own difficulties I would say.

[Scott]

At times, I find the illogical nature of the country exasperating. I think it is important to remember that everyone, everywhere acts from their emotions rather than their logic--that is human nature.

I have a problem when the gov't acts, passes laws, enforces etc. based on emotion rather than logic and law. Herein lies the problem I have in the country.

Much of this has to do with the patronage system and the hierarchical nature of the culture.

Since I have to work in the sometimes illogic of the system, I get exasperated. The Poo-Yai comes up with some idea. If anyone dared to say anything to him, he would realize it is really, really a bad idea. But no one dares, so it is passed on and everyone down the line pays the price. After all, no one wants to be responsible for his losing face.

I work in a supervisory capacity and I come up with "brilliant" ideas all the time. Sometimes my much younger and inexperienced subordinates can shoot it full of holes within seconds--thank God, because they save all of us a lot of pain and grief and work. I don't mind because it's not meant or taken seriously (I have to do it to them all the time).

Thailand isn't illogical, but there are important people who don't use good logic and thus under don't dare point it out.

That said, once the decisions are made, I just go with it. It's a done deal and inspite of my logic and bravery, I am not the one that is going to point out to Poo-Yai what an idiot he is!

[meemiathai]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Another thing that I found interesting in this story was that the lady who was nice and friendly to him must have been Thai. But MRT certainly wasn't bothered to mention it. Instead he chose the bad example (or apple) to ask why all Thais acted illogically. Interesting logic he has.

i did mention the friendly lady in the shop. and i am refering to a singular incident involving one person. one person that made me jaded yesterday. i can talk about more friendly thais than non friendly thais if you want me to. it will take up my whole day and i probably wouldnt get any response though.

just becuase i tell a story about one person you automatically asume that i am categorizing all thais.

geeze there is lots of expat bashing by expats on this forum.

No worries MRT. It is just a knee-jerk reaction from Thaigoon. He has seen too many unnecessary thai bashings here. And had missed your point that is "the logic".

[ThaiGoon]

i did mention the friendly lady in the shop. and i am refering to a singular incident involving one person. one person that made me jaded yesterday. i can talk about more friendly thais than non friendly thais if you want me to. it will take up my whole day and i probably wouldnt get any response though.

just becuase i tell a story about one person you automatically asume that i am categorizing all thais.

geeze there is lots of expat bashing by expats on this forum.

My point was when you addressed the person who was nice to you, you just said "the lady" even if she must have been Thai as well. But when you wanted to illustrate your point about Thais being illogical, you said "a large Thai man." See the difference? And one last thing, if you did believe you are not generalizing all Thais, why would you have to bother creating this thread? I mean, if you really believed that occasionally you got treated badly by some Thai people, what urged you to create a thread titled "illogical Thailand"? Could you explain me a bit of your logic behind this?

P.S. I got mistreated by some Americans sometimes, and I never felt like asking my Thai friends or my American friends why Americans are bad. I just thought everyone was just different and it's higly unlikely that they are all somehow genetically encoded to behave a certain way. We are all just individuals who, depending on each of our life experiences, just behave and react to things differently. True that some behaviors are obvioussly cultural traits, but for something as trivial as a bad customer service, it is not. And it shouldn't lead any logical person to think that oh why this country is so illogical.

[meemiathai]

Jai yen, khun thaigoon. I think it is understandable that the OP must have encountered a significant no. of occasions where a thai person has acted in an illogical manner to him. That he just picked one example to find out the reason behind it. And he has stressed already that he is not trying to bash the whole nation.

Try to focus on what his main point is.