Debt crisis with girlfriend

[spidermike007]

We are talking about alot of money here. You can help her, but your 55K will only be the beginning. So, you have a choice to make. When I got involved with my Thai woman, in the first year I asked her to declare all of her debt, and family debt to me, so I knew what I was dealing with. Fortunately, it was not much, and was manageable. Not sure if the crazy amount she is in it for is manageable for you. That is alot of cash. And those creditors will not go away. And I would be less than trusting about her lending an ex that amount of money. Sounds a bit fishy.

[talahtnut]

5 minutes ago, Vascoda said:

They can repose the car for car loan only. They reposed my gf's car and I paid to get it back from auction lot. She is also my daughter's mother so I had to it and she known I am loaded.

Tip of the day:  Don't tell anyone in Thailand.

It pays to be broke mate.

[aircooledflat4]

12 hours ago, genericptr said:

Again she's never had a history of this

that's because they're experts in the so- called "long game". 

[cyril sneer]

12 hours ago, genericptr said:

Again, if you can believe it, she claims an old boyfriend before me was able to con her into lending him 1.5 million

this sounds believable, probably assumed good karma would come her way at some point

 

though the other details are probably lies

 

stupidity and lying

[Rookiescot]

If the roles were reversed would she be shelling out coin to help you out? Unlikely.

 

[gk10002000]

sell the "new" car and buy a used one. 

[cmarshall]

In fact, it's not Thainess that limits Thai people's competence at planning for the future.  It's poverty.  Most Thai people are poor by Western standards.  While 38k baht per month, it's an annual salary of $14,000, i.e. working poverty.  It's an old saw of sociology that how people plan for the future depends on their level of income.  Poor people struggle to live day by day and lack the resources to do effective planning for the future.  Since their family and friends are all in the same situation there is no shared knowledge about how to handle money.  Middle-class people plan for major purchases like a house and, especially, retirement which takes a lot of planning since it's the most expensive purchase most of us will ever make.  Rich people plan leaving a legacy for their heirs.  The richer among them, for instance, might take advantage of a generation-skipping trust which makes separate bequests to the children and the grandchildren so the amount the grandchildren inherit only suffers the tax-bite once, not twice.  Poor people and middle-class people have never heard about strategies like this, because it doesn't concern them.

 

So poor Thais behave just like poor Americans in failing to avoid debt, saving/investing for retirement, and lots of other ways no doubt.  It's regrettable that so many observers reach first for the race or cultural explanation of behavior and overlook class.

[OneMoreFarang]

Probably you know that many Thais like to gamble. Sometimes I hear number with how much money they gamble and that is absolutely crazy. Like a hair dresser gambles for 100,000B. And obviously she can't pay that and then the loan sharks want crazy amounts of extra money.

If your gf has a huge problem if she gets 7% less money than she has a big (mental) problem. And it's unlikely that that problem will go away by itself.

So you have maybe four choices:

a) Hope that the problem goes away by itself

b) She has to learn how to handle money and problems with money

c) You have to live with that as long as you have this gf.

d) You decide that you don't want to live with that problem forever. Bye bye gf.

[NorthernRyland]

26 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

We are talking about alot of money here. You can help her, but your 55K will only be the beginning. So, you have a choice to make. When I got involved with my Thai woman, in the first year I asked her to declare all of her debt, and family debt to me, so I knew what I was dealing with. Fortunately, it was not much, and was manageable. Not sure if the crazy amount she is in it for is manageable for you. That is alot of cash. And those creditors will not go away. And I would be less than trusting about her lending an ex that amount of money. Sounds a bit fishy.

Smart advice. I did this too late and she's not taking her debt problems seriously however. 

[NorthernRyland]

12 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

sell the "new" car and buy a used one. 

That was my first idea! She absolutely refuses to do this. I already failed by helping her at all after she refused to make sacrifices herself.

[NorthernRyland]

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

While 38k baht per month, it's an annual salary of $14,000, i.e. working poverty.

I agree with your assessment but 38/month is at least middle class in Thailand, and in fact nearly 4 times minimum wage. GDP per capita is about $7k USD I believe so she's 2x above the average.

[ChouDoufu]

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

In fact, it's not Thainess that limits Thai people's competence at planning for the future.  It's poverty.  Most Thai people are poor by Western standards.  While 38k baht per month, it's an annual salary of $14,000, i.e. working poverty.  It's an old saw of sociology that how people plan for the future depends on their level of income.  Poor people struggle to live day by day and lack the resources to do effective planning for the future.  Since their family and friends are all in the same situation there is no shared knowledge about how to handle money.  Middle-class people plan for major purchases like a house and, especially, retirement which takes a lot of planning since it's the most expensive purchase most of us will ever make.  Rich people plan leaving a legacy for their heirs.  The richer among them, for instance, might take advantage of a generation-skipping trust which makes separate bequests to the children and the grandchildren so the amount the grandchildren inherit only suffers the tax-bite once, not twice.  Poor people and middle-class people have never heard about strategies like this, because it doesn't concern them.

 

So poor Thais behave just like poor Americans in failing to avoid debt, saving/investing for retirement, and lots of other ways no doubt.  It's regrettable that so many observers reach first for the race or cultural explanation of behavior and overlook class.

38K isn't poverty in thailand, especially when her accommodations are provided.  if she had any sense, she'd easily be able to save 20K/month, or at least 250K/year with the bonus.

 

she's been at her job for 15 years.  there's no reason why she should not now outright own a dozen 30m apartments bringing in at least 25K/month rent.

[NorthernRyland]

Another question: what exactly happens if she goes to court? She made it sound like this would be some crisis but maybe they just settle her debts and put her on a different plan? She was already paying 7k/month on the 200k so I don't know what else the bank wants her to do. Maybe she was delinquent and not being fully honest?

[NorthernRyland]

1 minute ago, ChouDoufu said:

she's been at her job for 15 years.  there's no reason why she should not now outright own a dozen 30m apartments bringing in at least 25K/month rent.

Exactly. Her Mom passed away 5 some years before she met me but her father should have been able to help her plan. The father in fact got her the government job as it was his old employer. Everything was setup for her to succeed but she didn't play her cards right.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

37 minutes ago, genericptr said:

She does say she'll refinance her debt this month and I'll get my 55k back but I don't plan on that of course.

100% <deleted> - she has zero intention of ever paying you back. More than likely she is mad at you for something or other (leaving her alone for a long time? thinks you cheated on her?) and this is her way of "getting even" or feeling better about herself for staying with you despite X (whatever she's <deleted> about).

 

There's a couple of sayings that come to mind:

* Give them a finger, and they'll take the hand.

* If you help a woman - she will always remember you the next time she needs help.

 

No woman I have ever loaned any substantial amount to has ever paid me back. They will make excuses to themselves why they shouldn't pay you back and eventually just resent you for wanting it back.

 

Your best bet is to move out - find your own place in Chiang Mai, or move to Bangkok or elsewhere. You are in a bad position living with her and suffering her nagging or worse. If you even want to keep seeing her do so but don't live with someone who's trying to take advantage of you.

[mercman24]

thais dont care a flying, ***, i lent a close friend 100,000 with signed contracts, i even seen a contract from her that she would get 70,000 back within one month,(April 2019) ok i was thinking, no problem as she lets rooms out at 10,000 a month, well that was 9 months ago, and about 9 excuses. i sell land, i ask my sister, i ask my son, i sell up, going to visit to day, i wonder what the excuse will be this time, i was told it would cost me more than 100,000 to get my money back, even with a court order in my favour, they still not pay, its a bloody joke in this country, with their stupid defamation laws,

[steven100]

look .. I think at the end of the day it's you and only you who can decide if you want to help her get through this debt crisis and as such obviously stay with her for the future. If so then you need to sit down and develop a payment plan that will after time get her debt free, this may involve your financial input or whatever.

If not, then just walk away.

But it's either a yes or a no,  and only you can decide that, not a TV forum chatroom.

[ChouDoufu]

8 minutes ago, genericptr said:

Another question: what exactly happens if she goes to court? She made it sound like this would be some crisis but maybe they just settle her debts and put her on a different plan? She was already paying 7k/month on the 200k so I don't know what else the bank wants her to do. Maybe she was delinquent and not being fully honest?

it is a crisis if she goes to court..........she'll be really embarrassed.

 

something is missing here.  unless she's delinquent, there should be no court appearance.

 

make her show you ALL the records.  trust me, they won't show you everything at first, just enough to get by.

 

you know her monthly income, now you need to calculate the monthly outgo.  there's probably another (perhaps several!) big payments she needs to make each month she's not telling you about.

 

anyhoo, court appearance is no big deal.  lawyers often use that as a tactic to get payment, more often than not they make a deal in the courthouse while waiting for the hearing. 

[Pat83]

"I have serious money issues and I love you and you just happen to be a foreigner with money".  I hear this all too often.  Just think about how much you can lose right now and she can just as easily as she found you find another foreigner.  Don't be a simp and get the hell out of this.

[NorthernRyland]

17 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

You are in a bad position living with her and suffering her nagging or worse. If you even want to keep seeing her do so but don't live with someone who's trying to take advantage of you.

Good advice, that's what I feel like doing right now. I think it's 99% certain next month something else is going to come up and I'll be right back where I am now. A couple months ago she already had me pay for her auto insurance (18k) while I was biking to work in South Carolina and who knows what comes next.

[RotBenz8888]

Thai economic philosophy: hurry up and spend your money, tomorrow it might all be gone.

[transam]

33 minutes ago, genericptr said:

That was my first idea! She absolutely refuses to do this. I already failed by helping her at all after she refused to make sacrifices herself.

In which case it is not your problem...

[Kadilo]

30 minutes ago, genericptr said:

. Everything was setup for her to succeed but she didn't play her cards right.

You have probably inadvertently Hit the nail on the head. 

[cmarshall]

16 minutes ago, genericptr said:

I agree with your assessment but 38/month is at least middle class in Thailand, and in fact nearly 4 times minimum wage. GDP per capita is about $7k USD I believe so she's 2x above the average.

The $7k number is GDP per capita at the exchange rate.  The better measure is GDP per capita at Pricing Power Parity, that for Thailand is about $17k which would be higher than her salary.  But the technical details don't matter.  Not only is she actually poor, but, unlike you and me, she grew up in a culture of poverty.  I'll bet her parents were poor even by Thai standards.  So no one taught her to save up money to pay cash whenever possible instead of paying interest.  I'll bet she doesn't save any portion of her income and has no plan for how to retire eventually.  So, she is poor, because she thinks like a poor person, which is why you two are in conflict.

 

In a Thai-Foreigner relationship there are perpetual and baffling differences arising from the quite distinct cultures.  Money, planning for the future, saving, etc. are likely to be huge obstacles.  My Thai wife and I lived together in the States for ten years before moving to Thailand during which time my friends and I taught her how to be a middle-class person.  She has never incurred any debt and does not want to own a condo or a car, and faces a financially secure future.

[NorthernRyland]

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The better measure is GDP per capita at Pricing Power Parity, that for Thailand is about $17k which would be higher than her salary.

Thanks for the info I never heard of that before! I've spent lots of time pondering if Thailand is really developing or just plucking the low hanging fruit of importing technology + deficit spending. I honestly feel like the country is going backwards and life seemed simpler and better even 15 years ago when I arrived in 2005. Thailand is going to face a serious reckoning with debt in the near future I suspect.

[NorthernRyland]

9 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

My Thai wife and I lived together in the States for ten years before moving to Thailand during which time my friends and I taught her how to be a middle-class person.

I want to move back to the US also and thought about bringing her but I really don't trust her with money. Was that a good experience for her? I can't shake the feeling my girlfriend would be bored and miserable since she can't speak English well and could only secure a low paying job or driving Uber etc...

[ICELANDMAN]

20 minutes ago, genericptr said:

Good advice, that's what I feel like doing right now. I think it's 99% certain next month something else is going to come up and I'll be right back where I am now. A couple months ago she already had me pay for her auto insurance (18k) while I was biking to work in South Carolina and who knows what comes next.

And you not living together ? You are a beautiful fish, but not the last

[Kadilo]

3 minutes ago, genericptr said:

. Thailand is going to face a serious reckoning with debt in the near future I suspect.

I doubt it. They will deal with it like your girlfriend. Just keep borrowing and burying their head in the sand. 

[tgw]

13 hours ago, genericptr said:

Do you think we should cut them some slack because of how fast their world has been changing? I've been in Thailand since 2005 and seen rapid change so maybe all these ideas of debt are totally new to the culture? For me personally  there's always been financial advice available and the previous generations seemed to have a handle on things in a way the Thais clearly do not. I've also seen friends of mine take out insane student loan debts with the promise of high paying jobs that never came so there's that...

 

no... even if something is new to the culture, pledging chanotes and borrowing money is not. it's either lack of discipline and/or lack of intelligence, wisdom.

 

even if the cultural reasons are undeniably there (lack of financial education, no need to plan firewood for the winter, culture of sharing, etc.), we don't get anywhere thinking "it's not their fault" and then being forced to bail out until the next bail out.

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, genericptr said:

Thanks for the info I never heard of that before! I've spent lots of time pondering if Thailand is really developing or just plucking the low hanging fruit of importing technology + deficit spending. I honestly feel like the country is going backwards and life seemed simpler and better even 15 years ago when I arrived in 2005. Thailand is going to face a serious reckoning with debt in the near future I suspect.

Thailand is not going backwards.  Growth in exports and the economy were slowing in 2019, but still positive.  Below is the graph of Thai GDP (nominal) for the past 25 years.  Does that look like an economy is "is going backwards?"

 

People who know nothing about economics, have never read an economics books, don't read discussions on websites hosted by economics professors, and might never have encountered PPP GDP data think that they understand something bad, which is debt.  Well, you don't.  Debt may be bad for households like yours, but that is not the same as saying that the total debt load of the country is restricting growth.  

 

Thailand GDP trailing 25 years.