O-A to avoid insurance

[MRToMRT]

Would this work? Or any reason why it would not?

 

Am over 50 and now just spend 8 months a year in Thailand (and then 4-5 months in Europe) so need an easy way to get access with minimum of fuss and no trips to CW. So my "theory" is ....

 

Apply for O-A in UK, and use my "real" insurance and no need for Thai bank account holdings

Spend my time in Thailand.

Let the visa expire and then apply apply for a NEW O-A (in UK) using my "real" insurance and UK bank holding again.

 

Would that work, repeated new O-As (after expiry) rather then an O-A extension. 

 

My thinking is: applying for O-A in Europe is a relatively easy experience, gives me come and go freely ability, avoids the need for me to support the Thai insurance scammy thing.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

You can apply for as many OA long stay visas as you want to back to back. There are people that have been doing it for many years.

But some people doing them are now having problems getting proof of their insurance.

[david_je]

22 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for as many OA long stay visas as you want to back to back. There are people that have been doing it for many years.

But some people doing them are now having problems getting proof of their insurance now.

You mean instead of extending at CW, leave before current stay expires and apply for new O-A visa after it expires? Is that a viable way out of the requirement for approved insurance?

Before insurance requirement, why were people doing this for many years instead of extending at CW?

Thanks.

[Langsuan Man]

48 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

My thinking is: applying for O-A in Europe is a relatively easy experience, gives me come and go freely ability, avoids the need for me to support the Thai insurance scammy thing.

 

And what makes you think that any Thai Embassy or Consulate in Europe will not require the Thai generated certificate that shows your real insurance satisfies the Thai requirement 

 

[cnxgary]

For the initial OA application from abroad one does not need thai insurance just insurance from the country that you apply from. Thai insurance is required when one applies for a extension of visa. So a person can maintain a OA by leaving before expiry date and reapplying for OA in there country which avoids Thai insurance but that said one needs to show some type of insurance when applying for OA. ECCEPT when one applies for a OA based on marriage.

[DrJack54]

12 minutes ago, cnxgary said:

For the initial OA application from abroad one does not need thai insurance just insurance from the country that you apply from. Thai insurance is required when one applies for a extension of visa. So a person can maintain a OA by leaving before expiry date and reapplying for OA in there country which avoids Thai insurance but that said one needs to show some type of insurance when applying for OA. ECCEPT when one applies for a OA based on marriage.

non O-A based on MARRIAGE?

Say what!

[Peter Denis]

24 minutes ago, cnxgary said:

For the initial OA application from abroad one does not need thai insurance just insurance from the country that you apply from. Thai insurance is required when one applies for a extension of visa. So a person can maintain a OA by leaving before expiry date and reapplying for OA in there country which avoids Thai insurance but that said one needs to show some type of insurance when applying for OA. ECCEPT when one applies for a OA based on marriage.

The first part of your post is correct > When applying for a Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country you need to show that you have a TGIA thai-approved health-insurance policy OR that you have a foreign health-insurance policy that meets the thai IO requirements.  To prove the latter your insurer needs to sign the Foreign Insurance Certificate stating that your policy meets the thai IO requirements (i.e. 400K in-patient coverage / 40 K out-patient coverage).  The thai Embassy of your home-country will on approval then add a note in your passport with the Non Imm OA Visa that mentions the DATE till which your insurance is valid.

Note 1: It is therefore recommended to request your insurer to mention a 2-year policy validity date on the Foreign Insurance Certificate, because when that date is taken over by the thai Embassy in your home-country it will allow you to make full use of also the 2nd year a Non Imm OA Visa can provide you (otherwise you will be stamped in on re-entry during the Visa validity period not for a full-year, but only till the date of your insurance policy validity).

Note 2: The thai Embassy in Canberra, Australia does not accept foreign insurance (even with a Foreign Insurance Certificate) and insists on a thai-issued health-insurance policy from TGIA approved companies.

 

The last part of your post is incorrect > A Non Imm OA based on marriage does not exist.  You can only apply for a Non Imm OA long-stay Visa.  It is when applying for an extension of stay of that Visa in Thailand, that you need to mention the reason for the extension.  When you are married to a thai national, you can extend your OA Visa for reason of marriage and then NO health-insurance is required.  But when applying for the extension for reason of retirement (+50 years old) THAI health-insurance (TGIA approved) will be required.  

 

 

[Pib]

OP,

   Getting your foreign insurance provider to sign/provide the letter shown in post #4 is a major obstacle to overcome.  Few will be willing to do such.   A person can have absolutely outstanding medical insurance which provides coverage worldwide but if the insurer will not sign the letter shown in post #4 then you have just hit a brick wall in getting a new OA visa.

 

 

[Peter Denis]

3 hours ago, david_je said:

You mean instead of extending at CW, leave before current stay expires and apply for new O-A visa after it expires? Is that a viable way out of the requirement for approved insurance?

Before insurance requirement, why were people doing this for many years instead of extending at CW?

Thanks.

1. Yes, when the permission to stay of your Non Imm OA Visa almost expires (when re-entering just before Visa validity expiry, that would be after almost 2 years), you can simply exit Thailand and apply for a new Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country.  That way you can avoid the THAI approved health-insurance required by O.

You would however on applying for the Non Imm OA Visa have to prove that your foreign health-insurance policy meets the thai IO requirements.  To prove the latter your insurer needs to sign the Foreign Insurance Certificate stating that your policy meets the thai IO requirements (i.e. 400K in-patient coverage / 40 K out-patient coverage).  > see also my response in post #7 on that issue

 

2. The reason people were also doing this (re-applying for a new Non Imm OA Visa in their home-country instead of extending it at their local IO) was, because with the OA Visa you did not have to prove your financials while in Thailand (until it was due for extension - which was only after 2 years when timed right).

And basically you did not have any IO hassle, since you would not extend your Visa locally but simply apply for a new one in your home-country.  So when you also did your 90-day reports and your TM30 filings on-line you would NEVER have to visit your local IO.  A strong argument, considering the hoops many long-stayers have to go through.

 

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, cnxgary said:

ECCEPT when one applies for a OA based on marriage.

For mattiage you'd start with a non Imm O, not an O-A

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, david_je said:

You mean instead of extending at CW, leave before current stay expires and apply for new O-A visa after it expires? Is that a viable way out of the requirement for approved insurance?

Before insurance requirement, why were people doing this for many years instead of extending at CW?

Thanks.

Applying for a new O-A in your home country also requires health insurance now. The only benefit might be you can use domestic insurance and not restricted to Thai companies (as per extensions on O-A Permits OS) 

Previously, people who were likely to go home at least once in 2 years obtained O-As as there was no requirement to show money tied up in a Thai bank account (or income). Imagine, maybe no need to visit Thai immigration..... and 2 years stay. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by jacko45k

[MRToMRT]

Thanks everyone I now see my plan will not work. I initially thought you would not need the TIA approval document but it now seems one does.

[Peter Denis]

9 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

Thanks everyone I now see my plan will not work. I initially thought you would not need the TIA approval document but it now seems one does.

Well, it would work if you succeed in getting your insurer to sign the Foreign Insurance Certificate stating that the policy you have with them meets the IO health-insurance requirements (400K in-patient / 40K out-patient).

Some friendly thai Embassies/consulates also accept proof of your health-insurance policy meeting the requirements without the FIC-document.

But obviously your plan would require to return to your home-country for a fresh Non Imm OA Visa once the permission to stay is meeting expiry. 

Note: You could of course also opt to convert to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa which does not require health-insurance, and for the rest has exactly the same requirements/conditions for extension as the Non Imm OA.

[rwill]

18 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

Thanks everyone I now see my plan will not work. I initially thought you would not need the TIA approval document but it now seems one does.

Just ask your insurance company if they will do it for you or not.  You don't know until then.

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, rwill said:

Just ask your insurance company if they will do it for you or not.  You don't know until then.

Many have all with same answer.

[david_je]

Unless one found a consulate that issued O-A without requiring the insurance met Thai requirements? I have foreign-issued insurance but like many others, only inpatient.

[rickudon]

7 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

When you are married to a thai national, you can extend your OA Visa for reason of marriage and then NO health-insurance is required.

Good luck with that. I have 2 friends who originally came on OA visas, Married, have had many extensions, but were told must now have insurance. One paid up (he already had good insurance, but not accepted) but is mighty annoyed. The other, being in his 80's, couldn't find a company to accept him and has just returned from Laos with a new 'O' visa based on marriage. All part of the chaotic implementation and each office does their own thing.

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, Proper person said:

 

The main reason for that was the "money in bank" did not need to be in Thai useless bank. Also did not need remain in bank in home country after non O-A granted. Excellent visa for folk living in Thailand or regular visitor. Can obtain 2 years. Only need return home country every 2 years.

Now they require useless Thai insurance.

That money goes to where we all know.

[Suradit69]

7 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

Thanks everyone I now see my plan will not work. I initially thought you would not need the TIA approval document but it now seems one does.

Ask the agent you use to buy insurance if s/he can help with the certificate. S/He could probably get someone to sign for  the "directors" and put a few official looking stamps on the certificate. Whether they would be keen to do that annually or whether the Thai Embassy or consulate would accept what you provide as proof, you'll only know by trying. I seem to recall someone saying he used Aetna  in  the US and his agent managed to do the needful.

 

Surely embassies still issue non imm O-A visas so there must be some way to get the insurance matter done.

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Suradit69 said:

Ask the agent you use to buy insurance if s/he can help with the certificate. S/He could probably get someone to sign for  the "directors" and put a few official looking stamps on the certificate. Whether they would be keen to do that annually or whether the Thai Embassy or consulate would accept what you provide as proof, you'll only know by trying. I seem to recall someone saying he used Aetna  in  the US and his agent managed to do the needful.

 

Surely embassies still issue non imm O-A visas so there must be some way to get the insurance matter done.

You making this stuff up?.

What would be useful is a post of someone obtaining insurance in own country and having said company sign the rubbish certificate to satisfy rubbish Thai rules re insurance. Can you provide one?

[Langsuan Man]

8 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Surely embassies still issue non imm O-A visas so there must be some way to get the insurance matter done.

Yes,  they are still issuing non imm O-A visas so long as you provide the required form shown on post # 4

 

What happens now (at least in the US) is to carefully compare requirements for the O-A at the Thai Embassy in Washington DC and the other three Thai Consulates and see if they mandate the form  

 

I am afraid that it will turn out to be like the "document notarizing" requirement, required in LA and Chicago, but not required in NY or DC

[Peter Denis]

12 hours ago, rickudon said:

Good luck with that. I have 2 friends who originally came on OA visas, Married, have had many extensions, but were told must now have insurance. One paid up (he already had good insurance, but not accepted) but is mighty annoyed. The other, being in his 80's, couldn't find a company to accept him and has just returned from Laos with a new 'O' visa based on marriage. All part of the chaotic implementation and each office does their own thing.

Two questions:

 

1. Were your 2 married friends (to a thai national I presume) staying here on an OA extension for reason of marriage?

I ask because many OA Visa holders married to a thai national, were 'tricked' by their local IO to apply for an extension for reason of retirement.  The OA-retirement extension requires much less paper-work to process and was therefore often pushed by 'lazy' IOs to OA extension applicants (even though the financials to be proven for that one were way higher than for a marriage-extension).

 

2. Irrespective whether their previous OA extension was for reason of retirement or for reason of marriage, the IO regulations foresee that when applying for an O or an OA extension you can pick the one of your choice (providing you meet the requirements of course). 

However, there are a couple of rogue IOs (e.g. Petchabun, Nonthaburi) that - incorrectly - insist that an applicant needs health-insurance for any OA extension.  They are blatantly wrong, as the PoliceOrder clearly stipulates that it is only required for OA - retirement extensions.

Therefor my 2nd question:

What was the IO your 2 friends applied for the OA - marriage extension?

 

Note: On hindsight your 80-old friend who inquired for a thai HI-policy and was not able to get one (thai insurers do not issue them when +75 years of age or with pre-existing conditions), got the best deal.  He will not be bothered by the bogus thai health-insurance scam anymore when applying for extensions for his new Non Imm O - marriage Visa.  Your other friend got a far worse deal as he will find out in years to come.  Not only did he buy a worthless paper just to satisfy the whims of the local IO, but he will be confronted with yearly increasing premiums.  The annual premium at 83 years for a coverage of 400K in-patient is 380K (yes, you read that correctly the premium is almost same as the coverage the policy provides > MADNESS!) 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Peter Denis

[Suradit69]

15 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

You making this stuff up?.

What would be useful is a post of someone obtaining insurance in own country and having said company sign the rubbish certificate to satisfy rubbish Thai rules re insurance. Can you provide one?

No I'm not making it up. I read a post from someone in the US whose OA visa application was accepted because he got someone to fill out the insurance certificate to the satisfaction of the Thai consulate in LA.

 

No I'm not even going to try to locate it with TV's deplorable forum search.

 

certainly some O-A visas ( visas, not extensions) have been and are being issued in the US. Some applicants must be getting non Thai insurance certificates that are suitable for the one year O-A visas.

 

 

[Suradit69]

16 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

You making this stuff up?.

What would be useful is a post of someone obtaining insurance in own country and having said company sign the rubbish certificate to satisfy rubbish Thai rules re insurance. Can you provide one?

According to rules stated re: health insurance for visa ( again, for visa, not extension of stay) at LA consulate, there is an option for foreign insurance. It's undoubtably a pain in the a$$ and puts off most people, but not an impossible task.

 

Item 9.2 bel

1. Quote

   Pursuant to the Resolution of the Council of Ministers of Thailand, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019), 
   approving in principle for the stipulation of health insurance as an additional requirement for Non-Immigrant ‘O-A’ (Long Stay) visa application, the Royal Thai Embassy  has introduced the following requirements for the said visa application:

   Effective from 31 October 2019 , the applicant must be medically insured for the entire period of stay in Thailand with the following coverage:

   – Outpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than 40,000 THB, and

   – Inpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than  400,000 THB

   The applicants must submit the following:

   9.1. Health insurance policy document issued by a Thai or foreign insurance company, stating that the applicant is medically insured for the period and with coverage as mentioned above:

   (a) In case of a foreign insurance company, the applicant must submit the original insurance policy document with 2 copies; the 

   (b) In case of a Thai insurance company, the applicant must submit 2 copies of the insurance policy document or, if available, the original insurance policy document with 2 copies. A list of Thai insurance companies participating in the scheme can be found here: http://longstay.tgia.org

   9.2. Foreign Insurance Certificate as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and Health Insurance of Thailand, which must be completed, signed and stamped by the insurance company. The form can be downloaded here: Foreign Insurance Certificate Form

    

    

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Suradit69

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

According to rules stated re: health insurance for visa ( again, for visa, not extension of stay) at LA consulate, their is an option for foreign insurance. It's undoubtably a pain in the a$$ and puts off most people, but not an impossible task.

 

Item 9.2 below

 

1. Pursuant to the Resolution of the Council of Ministers of Thailand, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019), 
   approving in principle for the stipulation of health insurance as an additional requirement for Non-Immigrant ‘O-A’ (Long Stay) visa application, the Royal Thai Embassy  has introduced the following requirements for the said visa application:

   Effective from 31 October 2019 , the applicant must be medically insured for the entire period of stay in Thailand with the following coverage:

   – Outpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than 40,000 THB, and

   – Inpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than  400,000 THB

   The applicants must submit the following:

   9.1. Health insurance policy document issued by a Thai or foreign insurance company, stating that the applicant is medically insured for the period and with coverage as mentioned above:

   (a) In case of a foreign insurance company, the applicant must submit the original insurance policy document with 2 copies;

   (b) In case of a Thai insurance company, the applicant must submit 2 copies of the insurance policy document or, if available, the original insurance policy document with 2 copies. A list of Thai insurance companies participating in the scheme can be found here: http://longstay.tgia.org

   9.2. Foreign Insurance Certificate as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and Health Insurance of Thailand, which must be completed, signed and stamped by the insurance company. The form can be downloaded here: Foreign Insurance Certificate Form

 

It's the 9.2 bit.

If companies were prepared to sign that form then things would have been easy.

My understanding is that there has been zero success, however read post where fella stated his non Thai insurance company did in fact sign the form.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by DrJack54

[Suradit69]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

It's the 9.2 bit.

If companies were prepared to sign that form then things would have been easy.

My understanding is that there has been zero success, however read post where fella stated his non Thai insurance company did in fact sign the form.

 

Well my memory is that someone with Aetna ... I believe travel insurance ... Had his agent fill out a certificate that satisfied the LA Thai consulate.

 

of course it would actually be better to start out with a non Imm O visa, but I think you can no longer get those in the US for retirement.. I have to believe some people in the US are starting out on the retirement path not using tourist visas or VE entries. Hard to imagine they've totally cut off American retirees ... but nothing is impossible to believe these days.

 

 

[DrJack54]

6 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Well my memory is that someone with Aetna ... I believe travel insurance ... Had his agent fill out a certificate that satisfied the LA Thai consulate.

 

of course it would actually be better to start out with a non Imm O visa, but I think you can no longer get those in the US for retirement.. I have to believe some people in the US are starting out on the retirement path not using tourist visas or VE entries. Hard to imagine they've totally cut off American retirees ... but nothing is impossible to believe these days.

 

 

Same as AU. They stopped providing non imm O based on retirement several years back. Only non O-A. BTW I just had check of Thai Embassy Canberra. There requirement for the non O-A appears to insist upon insurance from Thai company.

I couldn't see the option to have non Thai insurance and no mention of the "certificate" 

[Suradit69]

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Same as AU. They stopped providing non imm O based on retirement several years back. Only non O-A. BTW I just had check of Thai Embassy Canberra. There requirement for the non O-A appears to insist upon insurance from Thai company.

I couldn't see the option to have non Thai insurance and no mention of the "certificate" 

Well the US and Australia must make up a significant share of retirees. Maybe someone will notice the sudden drop in numbers and wonder if the reason is  a costly solution to a problem that could be solved less dramatically.

 

sarcasm alert.

 

[Pib]

16 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Well the US and Australia must make up a significant share of retirees. Maybe someone will notice the sudden drop in numbers and wonder if the reason is  a costly solution to a problem that could be solved less dramatically.

I'm sure they knew this will cause a sharp drop in the number of over 50 years in age farangs wanting to retire to Thailand--.hint, hint, we (Thailand) really don't need you Mr or Mrs Old Farang as your economic contribution to Thailand is now literally a drop in the overall, country-wide Thailand economy.  Yea, possibly a noticeable but still small impact in a few cities were farangs are a dime a dozen like Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, Chiang Mai...but overall for the country a drop in the bucket. 

 

[Suradit69]

24 minutes ago, Pib said:

I'm sure they knew this will cause a sharp drop in the number of over 50 years in age farangs wanting to retire to Thailand--.hint, hint, we (Thailand) really don't need you Mr or Mrs Old Farang as your economic contribution to Thailand is now literally a drop in the overall, country-wide Thailand economy.  Yea, possibly a noticeable but still small impact in a few cities were farangs are a dime a dozen like Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, Chiang Mai...but overall for the country a drop in the bucket. 

 

Agree, which is why I appended a "sarcasm alert" to my post,  which you chose to not include when quoting me.

 

But the overall unease will precipitate pressure on real estate sales. Although I plan to remain in Thailand, I decided to sell my condo a year ago and I'm sure I am not the only one to make such a decision. The instability will also have to make foreigners think twice about buying condos or houses even if they aren't yet impacted by insurance issues. 

 

Real estate,  medical services ( Thai insurance issues aside) and some other sectors may be affected, at least in the short  term, more than the general economy. The people who profit most from those sectors are not mom and pop stall holders. If something hurts them they will react.

 

i don't expect anyone to fall on his sword or issue a public mea culpa, but maybe there will be a pause in any plans to include non Imm O retirees or those older married  farang In any mandatory insurance. 

 

While it's true that the economy wouldn't be devastated by a withdrawal of retirees, some businesses and some workers would take a sudden, potentially painful hit and would make their displeasure known, not in sympathy for old farang, but out of concern for personal profit.