26 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It would have been clear to anyone who had actually read The Treaty of Rome and all its trimmings. 

 

Lol. 

 

It is one thing for a Treaty to declare that EU law has primacy, it is quite another for national parliaments to accept it is the case.

 

Particularly in the UK it was considered that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty presented a formidable barrier to this EU doctrine.

 

Even if EU law is deemed to have greater authority than treaties generally many national courts resist the ECJ's fixed view that EU law is the supreme law of the land. 

 

That was particularly the case in the UK. Even long AFTER Factortame this was still the case.

 

In the 2014 case of R (HS2 Action Alliance Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport, the UK Supreme Court said:

The United Kingdom has no written constitution, but we have a number of constitutional instruments. The common law itself also recognises certain principles as fundamental to the rule of law. It is, putting the point at its lowest, certainly arguable (and it is for United Kingdom law and courts to determine) that there may be fundamental principles, whether contained in other constitutional instruments or recognised at common law, of which Parliament when it enacted the European Communities Act 1972 did not either contemplate or authorise the abrogation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

 

So even AFTER Factortame and all it implied, ie after reading the Treaty of Rome, there were STILL UK courts who raised the notion that the UK abrogating sovereign rights to EU law may not be implicitly possible if it conflicts with UK constitutional law.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Lol. 

 

It is one thing for a Treaty to declare that EU law has primacy, it is quite another for national parliaments to accept it is the case.

 

Particularly in the UK it was considered that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty presented a formidable barrier to this EU doctrine.

 

Even if EU law is deemed to have greater authority than treaties generally many national courts resist the ECJ's fixed view that EU law is the supreme law of the land. 

 

That was particularly the case in the UK. Even long AFTER Factortame this was still the case.

 

In the 2014 case of R (HS2 Action Alliance Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport, the UK Supreme Court said:

The United Kingdom has no written constitution, but we have a number of constitutional instruments. The common law itself also recognises certain principles as fundamental to the rule of law. It is, putting the point at its lowest, certainly arguable (and it is for United Kingdom law and courts to determine) that there may be fundamental principles, whether contained in other constitutional instruments or recognised at common law, of which Parliament when it enacted the European Communities Act 1972 did not either contemplate or authorise the abrogation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

 

So even AFTER Factortame and all it implied, ie after reading the Treaty of Rome, there were STILL UK courts who raised the notion that the UK abrogating sovereign rights to EU law may not be implicitly possible if it conflicts with UK constitutional law.

 

 

This is just expanding Thobun , simply stating that the  UK has an evolving constitution where it was once thought of being binary common law v constitution. . UK law is now regarded as a set of constitutional statutes that exist in an heirachy.

 

This undermines your original premise that EU law would remain primacy due to the WA being EU law.

25 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

This is just expanding Thobun , simply stating that the  UK has an evolving constitution where it was once thought of being binary common law v constitution. . UK law is now regarded as a set of constitutional statutes that exist in an heirachy.

 

This undermines your original premise that EU law would remain primacy due to the WA being EU law.

 

You should read the posts properly, I never said that EU law would retain primacy due to the WA, I said that due to Factortame whatever is agreed at the end of December of this year, if signed in a treaty and subsequently ratified by the HoC by an Act of Parliament could then have primacy over conflicting domestic UK law.

 

This may well mean EU law could retain some effect. But the main point was that whatever is agreed at the end of December could retain primacy over UK domestic law.

 

 

58 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

You should read the posts properly, I never said that EU law would retain primacy due to the WA, I said that due to Factortame whatever is agreed at the end of December of this year, if signed in a treaty and subsequently ratified by the HoC by an Act of Parliament could then have primacy over conflicting domestic UK law.

 

This may well mean EU law could retain some effect. But the main point was that whatever is agreed at the end of December could retain primacy over UK domestic law.

 

 

Again you confuse the withdrawal agreement with any future trade agreement. 

 

The withdrawal agreement is a treaty, already signed and passed, which will be binding on both the EU and the UK under international law.

 

The possible future trade agreement, or parts of it, may be subject to EU law, that's what the EU wants, of course. We will see.    

It's rather obvious I was referring to whatever is agreed at the end of December this year.

 

Again, reading the post helps.

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

You couldn't work it out then?

Its a daily grind trying to work out your posts.

18 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's rather obvious I was referring to whatever is agreed at the end of December this year.

 

Again, reading the post helps.

no, not that clear when you mix that with the term "retain"

50 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its a daily grind trying to work out your posts.

Well that would require some knowledge. Sorry it's so tough for you.

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

Lol. 

 

It is one thing for a Treaty to declare that EU law has primacy, it is quite another for national parliaments to accept it is the case.

 

Particularly in the UK it was considered that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty presented a formidable barrier to this EU doctrine.

 

Even if EU law is deemed to have greater authority than treaties generally many national courts resist the ECJ's fixed view that EU law is the supreme law of the land. 

 

That was particularly the case in the UK. Even long AFTER Factortame this was still the case.

 

In the 2014 case of R (HS2 Action Alliance Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport, the UK Supreme Court said:

The United Kingdom has no written constitution, but we have a number of constitutional instruments. The common law itself also recognises certain principles as fundamental to the rule of law. It is, putting the point at its lowest, certainly arguable (and it is for United Kingdom law and courts to determine) that there may be fundamental principles, whether contained in other constitutional instruments or recognised at common law, of which Parliament when it enacted the European Communities Act 1972 did not either contemplate or authorise the abrogation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

 

So even AFTER Factortame and all it implied, ie after reading the Treaty of Rome, there were STILL UK courts who raised the notion that the UK abrogating sovereign rights to EU law may not be implicitly possible if it conflicts with UK constitutional law.

 

 

Good money for the legal eagles and hawks I suppose. But a waste of money and time while still a member of the EU.

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Good money for the legal eagles and hawks I suppose. But a waste of money and time while still a member of the EU.

 

The EU created yet another sector for your superb service providers to sell their expertise at 600 pounds an hour, what are you complaining about?

 

Yet another way for UK law firms to contribute to the UK's GDP. All courtesy of the EU. Do we get any thanks? Nothing but complaints!

 

So let me summarise, British fishermen, the best they can hope for is to keep access to the EU, ie to keep selling their fish to the EU. 

 

As they were doing before.

 

Poles and Romanians can continue to enter the UK at will and without visa.

 

As they were doing before.

 

No economic benefit. No control of borders.

 

Why are you so happy about Brexit? What did you gain?

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Well that would require some knowledge. Sorry it's so tough for you.

What all your incisive, detailed and fact laden arguments backed up with references and links?

 

???? 

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

The EU created yet another sector for your superb service providers to sell their expertise at 600 pounds an hour, what are you complaining about?

 

Yet another way for UK law firms to contribute to the UK's GDP. All courtesy of the EU. Do we get any thanks? Nothing but complaints!

 

I made an observation. You just assumed it was a complaint to justify your own complaint about lack of thanks. Stop moaning.  

59 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

What all your incisive, detailed and fact laden arguments backed up with references and links?

 

???? 

People rely on me to supply detailed facts all the time. I don't mind.

So this was totally unexpected:

 

Keir Starmer declines to rule out campaigning to rejoin EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/08/keir-starmer-declines-to-rule-out-campaigning-to-rejoin-eu

 

Get ready to rejoin Europe.

 

Bozo Johnson will stand firm and not sell out to the EU.  He has already reserved the dominant trader's position and it will be going to the US.  He will sell out to them in a heartbeat.  He will be long gone by the time a lynching mob comes looking for him.

On 3/3/2020 at 3:55 AM, Loiner said:

The UK fishing industry would grow significantly without even trying or doing anything extra. Simply ditching the EU quotas would permit them to keep all they catch. 

So long as the stocks last.

 

And then we can blame the next government.

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

So this was totally unexpected:

 

Keir Starmer declines to rule out campaigning to rejoin EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/08/keir-starmer-declines-to-rule-out-campaigning-to-rejoin-eu

 

Get ready to rejoin Europe.

 

so what?

I would have been surprised if Labour did not have a home for a "Become member of EU" movement.

Will it ever get some traction? Remains to be seen.

 

guess crunch time will come a couple of years after BJ takes the step from Brino to Brexit, 

ie couple of years after coming Christmas, provided BJ follows announced schedule

 

thinking of the title of this thread,

am not comfortable with the space that anglers and spud grovers manage to keep in national politics

 

9 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

so what?

I would have been surprised if Labour did not have a home for a "Become member of EU" movement.

Will it ever get some traction? Remains to be seen.

 

guess crunch time will come a couple of years after BJ takes the step from Brino to Brexit, 

ie couple of years after coming Christmas, provided BJ follows announced schedule

 

Oh it will.

 

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end. The electorate eventually grows tired and wants to give the other party a chance. 

 

With the economic problems that the Brexiters will face they will be totally overcome. The UK has the second largest oil sector, after Norway, in Europe. The oil sector accounts for 28% of total corporation tax in the UK. 

 

Oil supports 450,000 jobs in the UK. That's more than TWENTY times more than fishing.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

With the Americans having dumped cheap oil on the market for years now and the Saudis and Russians fighting for market share with low prices, the price of oil should stay low for a very long time.

 

The economic news can't get much worse for the UK basically.

 

And who will be in charge when the economic depression happens? The Tories. People have a memory. Theywill remember the good times when the UK was in the EU. The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in.

 

It will get traction.

 

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in

It has as much chance as you admitting you are Grouse.

 

As to your diabolical statement of, half the country wants back in. People had there chance and it was less than half on a biased campaign to remain. We had 2 GE and your lot still lost the opportunity.

 

Time to man up and support the UK. I notice it is not you in the UK anymore. didn't the Danish passport work out or does it come out selectively.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end.

I agree with this statement to some extent but you should add you need a credible leader and party. Swinson and Corbyn were not. Presently if you think Starmer is the man then you are as far away from the working mans opinion than are your posts.

 

He is another champagne socialist, masquerading as a working man. He would be better suited in the Tories.

31 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh it will.

 

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end. The electorate eventually grows tired and wants to give the other party a chance. 

 

With the economic problems that the Brexiters will face they will be totally overcome. The UK has the second largest oil sector, after Norway, in Europe. The oil sector accounts for 28% of total corporation tax in the UK. 

 

Oil supports 450,000 jobs in the UK. That's more than TWENTY times more than fishing.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

With the Americans having dumped cheap oil on the market for years now and the Saudis and Russians fighting for market share with low prices, the price of oil should stay low for a very long time.

 

The economic news can't get much worse for the UK basically.

 

And who will be in charge when the economic depression happens? The Tories. People have a memory. Theywill remember the good times when the UK was in the EU. The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in.

 

It will get traction.

 

You missed out the dates in your post

In corporate taxes in 2008-9, the largest since the mid-1980s, because of high oil and gas prices. This represented 28% of total corporation tax paid in the UK.^[15] It is expected that tax revenues from production will fall to £6.9 billion in 2009-10^[15] based on an oil price of $47 per barrel, providing 20% of total corporation taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

Shell reveals it paid no UK corporate income tax in 2018

https://www.ft.com/content/933fe2b8-20ee-11ea-92da-f0c92e957a96

51 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh it will.

 

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end. The electorate eventually grows tired and wants to give the other party a chance. 

 

With the economic problems that the Brexiters will face they will be totally overcome. The UK has the second largest oil sector, after Norway, in Europe. The oil sector accounts for 28% of total corporation tax in the UK. 

 

Oil supports 450,000 jobs in the UK. That's more than TWENTY times more than fishing.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

With the Americans having dumped cheap oil on the market for years now and the Saudis and Russians fighting for market share with low prices, the price of oil should stay low for a very long time.

 

The economic news can't get much worse for the UK basically.

 

And who will be in charge when the economic depression happens? The Tories. People have a memory. Theywill remember the good times when the UK was in the EU. The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in.

 

It will get traction.

 

Before there any chance of the UK rejoining the EU , the UK will be subject to the EU Accession procedure

Do you have any idea of how many Billions of Euros the EU has wasted on Turkey accession to the EU over the past 30 years

Hopefully the EU members have got very deep pockets and willing to splash the cash as the UK will need Billions and Billions or Euros

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It has as much chance as you admitting you are Grouse.

 

As to your diabolical statement of, half the country wants back in. People had there chance and it was less than half on a biased campaign to remain. We had 2 GE and your lot still lost the opportunity.

 

Time to man up and support the UK. I notice it is not you in the UK anymore. didn't the Danish passport work out or does it come out selectively.

 

 

I agree with this statement to some extent but you should add you need a credible leader and party. Swinson and Corbyn were not. Presently if you think Starmer is the man then you are as far away from the working mans opinion than are your posts.

 

He is another champagne socialist, masquerading as a working man. He would be better suited in the Tories.

 

Of course you agree with that statement, because it is correct. Every long party reign has come to an end, whether it was the Tories of Thatcher and Co, or the Labour of the Blair. 

 

In the end the electorate always grows tired and gives the other party a chance. The British electorate will give Labour a chance.

 

And it is in the nature of a political party to use EVERY possible avenue to get into power. That Keir Starmer is even now not ruling out campaigning on a join the EU ticket shows this.

 

It may not happen this year. Not the next. It may take a longer time, but in the end Labour will come back and they will come back with a plan to re-join the EU. Because half the country wants to be back in the EU. That's not a diabolical statement that's just the truth. The UK is basically split down the middle. The Brexiters only won by a low single digit  difference.

 

And guess what, the old, xenophobic, immigration hating Brexit voters will be making way for a younger generation that was raised in the EU and does not share the little Englander and anti-immigration biases which you, and the Brexiters harbour.

 

The only reason that Labour lost the general elections was because Corbyn was too feeble hearted to fully committ to Europe, his extreme socialism and anti-semitism issues made him unelectable for some people. But there will be other Labour leaders, eventually, who do not have these issues and who will fully commit to a rejoin Europe ticket. Because they know that'll be the only way they can get in.

 

Danish? I've never been so insulted in my life. I have a much better passport than Danish. 

 

 

Sir Keir said: "I don’t think there’s really any question of rejoining the EU

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1241680/Keir-Starmer-Brexit-news-UK-EU-rejoin-Labour-leadership-contest-latest-news

Keir Starmer declines to rule out campaigning to rejoin EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/08/keir-starmer-declines-to-rule-out-campaigning-to-rejoin-eu

 

36 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You missed out the dates in your post

In corporate taxes in 2008-9, the largest since the mid-1980s, because of high oil and gas prices. This represented 28% of total corporation tax paid in the UK.^[15] It is expected that tax revenues from production will fall to £6.9 billion in 2009-10^[15] based on an oil price of $47 per barrel, providing 20% of total corporation taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

Good spot, Vinny. You're one of the few who reads the sources and the posts. I'm impressed.

 

However, whether the UK oil sector pays 20 or 28 percent of total corporation taxes in the UK doesn't matter so much. It is clear that the UK oil sector, the second largest in the EU after Norway, will be the worst hit in the EU. Norway has a gigantic sovereign wealth funds that owns 2% of the world's shares. The UK does not.

 

Even 20% of corporation taxes is a HUGE share of total corporation taxes. And that's corporation taxes. Think of all the income tax which the many hundreds of thousands of UK workers in the oil sector pay? 

 

In short, given the current economic challenges a UK cut off from the EU, frankly the economic problems the Brexiters will be dealing with will mean they are doomed to failure. There is no way out. None.  All the dreams of just substituting Commonwealth or US markets for EU markets, all that is just nonsense.

 

The British economy is poised to enter a period of serious economic turmoil and deprivation. And who will be in charge when this happens? The Brexiters.

4 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Of course you agree with that statement

Quite candidly you missed an important part off. "To some extent". Strange i know another poster who use to do that.

 

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Because half the country wants to be back in the EU. That's not a diabolical statement that's just the truth.

This not the truth as explained before. For a man of stas even 52 to 48% isn't half and as mentioned 2 GE were fought on Brexit and remain. We know which won.

 

7 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The only reason that Labour lost the general elections was because Corbyn was too feeble hearted to fully committ to Europe

Is that your opinion or evidence based

 

8 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The Brexiters only won by a low single digit  difference.

Your Mathematics is shocking.  17,410,742 votes to leave and 16,141,241 to remain,

 

11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

And guess what, the old, xenophobic, immigration hating Brexit voters will be making way for a younger generation that was raised in the EU and does not share the little Englander

Polished off by your bigotry and disdain for the UK.

 

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Danish? I've never been so insulted in my life. I have a much better passport than Danish. 

Well please share in this amazing news. Where is it from then. Where were you  born while you are at it. We do like a bit of personalisation in our fellow posters here. It gives us a connection and understanding.

4 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The British economy is poised to enter a period of serious economic turmoil and deprivation. And who will be in charge when this happens? The Brexiters.

This forecast for nearly all EU countries so who is in charge of them. Coupled with a Coronavirus economic downfall it would seem that everyone is in for a bumpy ride, so lets not be melodramatic and blame the government that was voted in democratically by the people of the UK. Many coming from the Labour heartlands.