Will Covid 19 settle the Climate Change Debate?

[Brunolem]

6 minutes ago, mrfill said:

Capitalism is a method of running an economy. Socialism is a political theory. A country can be socialist AND capitalist - like Norway or Finland.

It cannot, as soon as the political interferes with the economy, which it does constantly.

 

In a capitalist economy, there are no bailouts for failing businesses, no central bank guided by the government to adjust the interest rates and to create money to finance the public deficits, and so on...

[teatime101]

The effects of the economic pause will obviously reduce carbon emissions somewhat. It will be years before that reduction has any detectable impact (if it can be detected) on global warming.

 

If you anybody here has read a climate paper that shows anthropogenic climate change is not happening, please share. 

 

This is an apt quote here:

 

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

[Brunolem]

46 minutes ago, Dap said:

the outcomes to your queries (in my opinion) is gonna' be how long this lasts and how devastating it will be to the numbers creating the pollution that's ultimately killing us all in the first place. 

 

Indeed, more than the climate, and the virus, it is the pollution, and the poisoning of everything, that is killing us, notably through multiple forms of cancer.

 

If governments were really bent on saving lives, they would have stopped the economy, or at least large parts of it, long ago.

 

Anyway, what we see today, as described in the OP is just a fleeting illusion of improvement.

 

The air and the water are in constant motion, so the pollution we don't see anymore, has just moved somewhere else, it hasn't disappeared.

 

And nothing is changing when it comes to the depleted soils and the poisoned food which is sold to us...even locked down, people are still eating the same s..t, and absorbing plastic particles, among other things.

 

We don't know how long the virus lock down madness will last, but we do know that it can't be long, unless the governments, notably in the West, have decided to commit global suicide...

[ncc1701d]

3 hours ago, andy85 said:

You are right, it will be interesting to how much the climate change markers are affected by the reduction in pollution. I don't think the results will really influence people though, most are firmly set in their views.

 

Climate change and coronavirus have some interesting parallels, at least to me. Notice that at the start of the epidemic, conservative pundits and politicians dismissed it, calling it a hoax, overblown media hype, politically motivated etc. They strongly denied it, right up until the moment it was staring them in the face. They have done the exact same thing with climate change.

 

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately), the pace of climate change is very slow. By the time they'll be willing to admit something is wrong, it will be too late. They'll be long gone, and their kids and grandkids will be left to clean up the mess. I don't have a strong view on two-sided politics either way, but I do trust in the scientists that study it much more than politicians or pundits. 

 

 

 

Here’s another great one:

 

 

also, minor point from the OP, but “and skies generally clear of aircraft emission streaks”. Whatever you see aren’t emission streaks, but condensation / clouds being formed as the pressure changes around the wings. Compared to most other types of engines, a jet engine burns incredibly clean.

[mrfill]

19 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

It cannot, as soon as the political interferes with the economy, which it does constantly.

 

In a capitalist economy, there are no bailouts for failing businesses, no central bank guided by the government to adjust the interest rates and to create money to finance the public deficits, and so on...

So therefore, there is no capitalist country on this earth.

[brokenbone]

3 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

It does not really matter what people as individuals think. Trust the same people who you will trust in creating a vaccine for the current pandemic. In my opinion, whoever takes that vaccine will in essence be saying they trust the climate science as well, they just refuse to admit that to themselves. 

what do you base that pseudo analysis on ?

[CG1 Blue]

9 minutes ago, ncc1701d said:

also, minor point from the OP, but “and skies generally clear of aircraft emission streaks”. Whatever you see aren’t emission streaks, but condensation / clouds being formed as the pressure changes around the wings. Compared to most other types of engines, a jet engine burns incredibly clean.

I really wanted this to be true because I like to learn new stuff. But every answer I see via Google seems to contradict what you said about the white streaks ????  e.g.: 

 

The hot, humid exhaust from jet engines mixes with the atmosphere, which at high altitude is of much lower vapor pressure and temperature than the exhaust gas. The water vapor contained in the jet exhaust condenses and may freeze, and this mixing process forms a cloud very similar to the one your hot breath makes on a cold day.

Jet engine exhaust contains carbon dioxide, oxides of sulfur and nitrogen, unburned fuel, soot and metal particles, as well as water vapor. The soot provides condensation sites for the water vapor. Any particles present in the air provide additional sites.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-jets-leave-a-white/

 

 

[Lacessit]

20 hours ago, wasabi said:

I believe man made climate change is not real.

What scientific evidence do you have to support that belief?

[brokenbone]

22 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Indeed, more than the climate, and the virus, it is the pollution, and the poisoning of everything, that is killing us, notably through multiple forms of cancer.

 

If governments were really bent on saving lives, they would have stopped the economy, or at least large parts of it, long ago.

 

Anyway, what we see today, as described in the OP is just a fleeting illusion of improvement.

 

The air and the water are in constant motion, so the pollution we don't see anymore, has just moved somewhere else, it hasn't disappeared.

 

And nothing is changing when it comes to the depleted soils and the poisoned food which is sold to us...even locked down, people are still eating the same s..t, and absorbing plastic particles, among other things.

 

We don't know how long the virus lock down madness will last, but we do know that it can't be long, unless the governments, notably in the West, have decided to commit global suicide...

what poisoned food are being sold ?

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Climate Change is NOT "man made". It is a naturally occurring cycle that has been going on ever since this planet was formed. Otherwise Earth would still be locked in a "snowball" earth phase where 99.99% of life of the planet is extinct.
These cycles last from 10s of thousands of years to 10s of millions of years, depending on a number of factors, the vast majority of which have absolutely nothing to do with mankind.

Mankind's actions have contributed to a speeding up of the current warming cycle that started at the end of the last Ice Age. Various climate models have suggested that this warming phase (or "inter-glaciation phase" as in a period between freezing cycles) would end in 1,500 years or so and the Earth would enter another (minor) Ice Age. These warming and cooling cycles happen all the time.
However, depending on the Earth's orbit around the sun during a given period, and it's axial tilt, those warming cooling periods could be extended by thousands of years (or even millions).
Some experts think that mankind's action may actually be delaying the onset of the next freezing period by 1,500-5,000 years.

Consider that the Cyrogenian Ice Age lasted from 720 to 635 million years ago. That means it lasted 85 MILLION years ! The planet was frozen completely down to the equators with only some areas around hydro-thermic vents deep in the ocean still being warm (and supporting microbacterial life).

That was just 1 of the 7 major Ice Ages the planet has gone through, just in the last 720 million years. (Each Ice Age contains numerous warming and cooling spells as well, or "glaciation" and "inter-glaciation" phases.)

As well, the Earth has also had periods where it has been completely ice free !! Those periods are referred to as the "Greenhouse Earth" periods and guess what happens during those periods ? 
Life FLOURISHES !
When the Cyrogenian Ice Age ended, it was followed by the Ediacaran Period which saw an "explosion" of life form on the planet, including the first hard-shelled life forms. The Ediacaran period is estimated to have lasted around 94 million years.

The planet is considered to be in a "Greenhouse" phase when all the ice in Antarctica and Greenland has melted.

This will really irritate some people. Scientists (real ones, not ones named Greta) estimate that the CO2 levels in the atmosphere during the Ediacaran Period were 16 times higher than in the pre-Industrial period and global temperatures were around 3 degrees (Celsius) higher than current temperatures.

Why is that ? I thought you'd never ask ! This will also irk Greta and company.

Real scientists have determined that EVERY major Ice Age was triggered by the SAME reason - LACK of CO2 in the atmosphere !

Here's what happens. CO2 is released into the atmosphere through volcanic and tectonic plate activity (we are talking about long before man was ever a gleam in an amoeba's eye).
CO2 builds up in the atmosphere and over the course of millions of years it helps trap heat and start warming the planet.

The ice/snow melts and - voila' ! Life flourishes ! Including life such as plants and trees and phytoplankton, all of which absorb CO2 and release oxygen as a byproduct !

The more CO2 in the atmosphere, the larger the plants and trees grow and the more phytoplankton there is in the seas. However, all good things must come to an end and that has been the case since long before Greta decided she was really angry and that we'd "stolen" her childhood.

Eventually, all those CO2 absorbing organisms outstrip the amount of CO2 being released into the atmosphere and the pendulum starts to swing the other way and the planet starts to cool down again. This process doesn't happen overnight of course (a fact more than a few seem to forget, or outright ignore).
It takes 10s of thousands of years before the effects are noticeable, but then things devolve in a hurry.

You seem when the Ice starts to reform the first thing that happens is more of the suns rays are reflected back into space, which actually speeds up the cooling process ! Eventually the oceans start to freeze over (speeding up the process), glaciers form (speeding up the process) and snow blankets the planet (speeding up the process). Life on the planet DIES.

And stays that way until eventually, enough CO2 builds up in the atmosphere (again) to allow the planet to start warming up (again).

And that has been happening ever - since - the - planet - was - formed. 

And that is what WILL keep happening long after mankind has gone extinct ! In fact, if every human on the planet died today and every fossil-fuel burning piece of machinery stopped and every methane farting cow died - 
Climate Change would STILL happen !

And it will keep happening until the sun goes super nova (or we wipe ourselves out by accidentally blowing up the planet).

When you get some kind of understanding of the way the laws of thermodynamics work, possibly you won't be posting this utter tosh.

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, JCauto said:

We won't have sufficient data to draw any conclusions about whether climate change is significantly man-made or not. The temperature measurements and modeling are on a global scale over the course of decades, and to attempt to draw conclusions from a small blip within this massive set of data will not be productive.

I suspected that. Pity really. It would have been good to get some decent data after going through all this cr4p! 

[brokenbone]

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

What scientific evidence do you have to support that belief?

that in the time interval of 150 to 50 million years ago, 100 million years in a row,

temp & co2 went in an inverse correlation.

that proves that 1] there is no feedback whatsoever, or it would have shown in that interval,

you cant claim 50 years are causing a feedback and 100 million years are not.

2] it proves that to whichever degree co2 has any effect, it is entirely overridden

by other factors, orders of magnitude more powerful in dictating climate,

because again, if 100 million years in a row of inverse correlation doesnt cut it,

it never will, and certainly not a time interval of 50 years,

a  mere weather fluke in earth history.

i implore you: where is the correlation ??!

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by brokenbone

[Lacessit]

Just now, brokenbone said:

that in the time interval of 150 to 50 million years ago, 100 million years in a row,

temp & co2 went in an inverse correlation.

that proves that 1] there is no feedback whatsoever, or it would have shown in that interval,

you cant claim 50 years are causing a feedback and 100 million years are not.

2] it proves that to whichever degree co2 has any effect, it is entirely overridden

by other factors, orders of magnitude more powerful in dictating climate,

because again, if 100 million years in a row of inverse correlation cuts it,

it never will, and certainly not a time interval of 50 years,

a  mere weather fluke in earth history

 

Having read multiple erroneous posts from you, some of which show a great liking for cherry-picking single data points to support your argument, I don't intend to waste any time apart from this post in responding.

[brokenbone]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

When you get some kind of understanding of the way the laws of thermodynamics work, possibly you won't be posting this utter tosh.

you have disqualified yourself in understanding of physics,

max plank doesnt ring a bell and you present invalid arguments on 2nd law of thermodynamics,

with notably some sort of belief that earth is a closed system with no

energy input from sun even

[brokenbone]

Just now, Lacessit said:

Having read multiple erroneous posts from you, some of which show a great liking for cherry-picking single data points to support your argument, I don't intend to waste any time apart from this post in responding.

100 million years in a row is no cherry picking, it is long term data that easily suffice to falsify the co2 hypothesis altogether

[TheDark]

19 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree with most of what you say, especially about the socialist wish lists. I do think human activity contributes to climate change, but I doubt it makes a material difference to the Earth's natural cycles. 

When socialism means that we take better care of the planet, so that we all can enjoy it, not just abuse it. I'm pretty sure socialism is going be a trend in the next few years. 

 

Addition to your list: Sea otters has been videoed fooling around and having fun at Phuket's beaches. 

 

Our World, or rather our residents of this Earth can learn a great deal from this pandemic, if only we are smart enough.

 

I'm hopefully positive, we are. 

[Dap]

36 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Indeed, more than the climate, and the virus, it is the pollution, and the poisoning of everything, that is killing us, notably through multiple forms of cancer.

 

If governments were really bent on saving lives, they would have stopped the economy, or at least large parts of it, long ago.

 

Anyway, what we see today, as described in the OP is just a fleeting illusion of improvement.

 

The air and the water are in constant motion, so the pollution we don't see anymore, has just moved somewhere else, it hasn't disappeared.

 

And nothing is changing when it comes to the depleted soils and the poisoned food which is sold to us...even locked down, people are still eating the same s..t, and absorbing plastic particles, among other things.

 

We don't know how long the virus lock down madness will last, but we do know that it can't be long, unless the governments, notably in the West, have decided to commit global suicide...

I agree wholeheartedly. This virus is but a blip on the radar, but that same radar has been scanning the all the cr*P in and around us for a lifetime and this blip ain't gonna' change nuthin' at all. GdDa*n! It's depressing!! 

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

Whoever heard of deer roaming around the streets of London ? They had better be careful in certain areas !

Yep, in East London as well. Maybe they are drug deer'lers. Sorry ????

 

https://www.timeout.com/london/news/an-entire-herd-of-deer-has-taken-over-an-empty-corner-of-east-london-040320

[brokenbone]

7 minutes ago, TheDark said:

When socialism means that we take better care of the planet, so that we all can enjoy it, not just abuse it. I'm pretty sure socialism is going be a trend in the next few years. 

 

Addition to your list: Sea otters has been videoed fooling around and having fun at Phuket's beaches. 

 

Our World, or rather our residents of this Earth can learn a great deal from this pandemic, if only we are smart enough.

 

I'm hopefully positive, we are. 

we can find comfort in that we are improving conditions for life with our cleaver

way of reintroducing co2 back into the atmosphere at a faster rate then marine

organisms are depleting this vital resource, behold one of our great achievements,

that humans can take sole credit for. we are the protectors of the world and we are finally stepping up to the task, next up is using our intellect to increase temperature and decidedly take earth out of this ice age once and for all

Edited April 9, 2020 by brokenbone

[TheDark]

4 hours ago, JCauto said:

We won't have sufficient data to draw any conclusions about whether climate change is significantly man-made or not. The temperature measurements and modeling are on a global scale over the course of decades, and to attempt to draw conclusions from a small blip within this massive set of data will not be productive.

 

We are seeing immediate and positive changes to the environment as a result of the lack of vehicles and industrial activity reducing pollution and un-crowding spaces.  That this should happen so quickly and comprehensively should provide food for thought for those who doubt whether humans can have major impacts on the planet through our activities. Of course we can and of course we have.

 

We have significant data that we, the people, are really messing our Earth. We pollute everything we touch, unfortunately.

 

Fortunately some countries have taken this pollution problem seriously already for years. Therefore we have a lot cleaner skies in the Europe. That advance will come to Asia and USA at some point. And yes, USA has advanced a lot previously as well.

 

Today: Wouldn't it be lovely to drink from your local river, without being afraid to get sick, because there is a manufacturing plant upriver?

 

Tomorrow: Wouldn't it be lovely to breath air from surrounding atmosphere, without being afraid to get sick, because there is manufacturing plant upwind? 

 

The choice is ours. Either we let the utterly greedy people rule the world, or we take back control and make the Earth Great Again.

[JackGats]

Covid seems to propagate less the warmer the weather. So global warming should be something to wish for in many countries.

[brokenbone]

2 minutes ago, TheDark said:

We have significant data that we, the people, are really messing our Earth. We pollute everything we touch, unfortunately.

 

Fortunately some countries have taken this pollution problem seriously already for years. Therefore we have a lot cleaner skies in the Europe. That advance will come to Asia and USA at some point. And yes, USA has advanced a lot previously as well.

 

Today: Wouldn't it be lovely to drink from your local river, without being afraid to get sick, because there is a manufacturing plant upriver?

 

Tomorrow: Wouldn't it be lovely to breath air from surrounding atmosphere, without being afraid to get sick, because there is manufacturing plant upwind? 

 

The choice is ours. Either we let the utterly greedy people rule the world, or we take back control and make the Earth Great Again.

it would be lovely if i could drink the tap water, but that aint gonna happen in thailand,

and the reason is not industry, the reason is the bum gun users

[Brunolem]

25 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

what poisoned food are being sold ?

Most of it... fish, fruits, vegetables, meat... everything that is not junk food, which is another form of poison... 

[Brunolem]

44 minutes ago, mrfill said:

So therefore, there is no capitalist country on this earth.

As I said in my first post... 

[brokenbone]

Just now, Brunolem said:

Most of it... fish, fruits, vegetables, meat... everything that is not junk food, which is another form of poison... 

poisoned in what way ? what are the effects beside getting fat ?

[TheDark]

1 minute ago, brokenbone said:

it would be lovely if i could drink the tap water, but that aint gonna happen in thailand,

and the reason is not industry, the reason is the bum gun users

I'm not talking about city life and drinking tap water. I'm talking about our natural resources and drinking from rivers etc.

 

We all, humanity, used to be able to do just that, before tap and bottled water was invented. We lost that civic right, when we started to spoil and pollute our own water sources. 

 

Now we are doing the same for our air. That is really, really stupid sacrifice for nations or humanity to make, for someone greedy to get a new Ferrari or private airplane.

[Lacessit]

https://time.com/5817233/great-barrier-reef-coral-bleaching-australia/

[Brunolem]

6 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

poisoned in what way ? what are the effects beside getting fat ?

What about cancer? 

 

Do you think the nice products from Monsanto and friends the farmers are throwing with abandon (while wearing hazmat suits in some cases) on their crops have no effect on consumers' health? 

 

[brokenbone]

1 minute ago, TheDark said:

I'm not talking about city life and drinking tap water. I'm talking about our natural resources and drinking from rivers etc.

 

We all, humanity, used to be able to do just that, before tap and bottled water was invented. We lost that civic right, when we started to spoil and pollute our own water sources. 

 

Now we are doing the same for our air. That is really, really stupid sacrifice for nations or humanity to make, for someone greedy to get a new Ferrari or private airplane.

in my home country there are natural wells clean enough to drink water from,

but there has been rivers throughout the entire history where it just isnt healthy.

the contamination of water can be largely attributed to bum gun users,

theres a chart somewhere on internet showing colera spread,

and it aint in the industrialized word, its in the areas where the population

arent spending money on proper toilet paper, manufactured by the industry for the purpose

of proper hygienic wiping and swiping the ar$e

[Brunolem]

14 minutes ago, TheDark said:

 

The choice is ours. Either we let the utterly greedy people rule the world, or we take back control and make the Earth Great Again.

That won't happen without a bit of violence, say, like in France around 1789...