Cm Has The Season Been Up Or Down

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I heard that the top 5 floors of the Shangri- La Hotel have been temporarily closed till business picks up.

The Meridian still has hardly any customers, and one week had none at all.

I have recently seen three new hotels under construction, and I don't get out much so there are probably more

Had coffee at the Meridian this morning,first time I have been there. At least 20 people ,with lugggage, at the reception desk checking in and another dozen having coffee in the lobby. I don't think things are that bad at the Meridian at least.

Indeed. It's just the sleeze-bars and decrepit dirty guesthouses/restaurants that need to get on with the times!

[Ulysses G.]

The Duke's, La Fourchette, Marco's and Butter is Better are all kicking butt even in this economy. It just proves that if you offer quality food for a reasonable price, you can often buck negative trends.

[Mapguy]

Yep!

[Sparkles]

I heard that the top 5 floors of the Shangri- La Hotel have been temporarily closed till business picks up.

The Meridian still has hardly any customers, and one week had none at all.

I have recently seen three new hotels under construction, and I don't get out much so there are probably more

Had coffee at the Meridian this morning,first time I have been there. At least 20 people ,with lugggage, at the reception desk checking in and another dozen having coffee in the lobby. I don't think things are that bad at the Meridian at least.

Could you make a guess were they a mix or of any obvious nationality?

Europeans, Asians, maybe Bkk Thais, Koreans ??? etc

Not really the lady I met was from Australia and she mentioned quite a few Australians were dining there last night. 2 Italian couples sitting next to us and a mix of Asian/European nationalities at reception. As I left at least 4 vans pulled up unloading guests,I think Chinese, and really I was surprised the place was so busy. Wife and I are going there for dinner tomorrow night I will interogate the receptionists on occupancy numbers

[OldeBellPedr]

put some more prominent sign-age outside your pub - as it can be very easy to miss [hope your alright with some positive criticism] when walking down Loi Kroh.

I couldn't agree more, have been down by bike on Loi Kroh many times and I do confess to blindness but I DIDN'T see it!

Followed even one of the CM maps. The arrow is misplaced, it's on the side road left back to the flower market.

New signage is on the list of things to do! we'll try to get round to it this low season! Sorry if you've experienced difficulties!!

This was an interesting thread to revisit: all I can say - in due deference to Oragn37's asertion that Loi Kroh Rd shouldn't be the sole barometer of economic activity in Chiang Mai- is that over the 5 months of this high season to date, we at The Olde Bell are 25% up on last year and things are going pretty well. Talking to the hotel manager at the Raming Lodge next door he says his bookings for the low season are pretty good and just walking down to the night market and looking at hotel windows in The Meridian, Duangtawan, Imperial Mae Ping etc, there still seem to be plenty of lights on, suggesting that things are going quite well. All that can scupper it is, as Millwall_fan suggested 2 years ago, is political turmoil. We need the country to have a peaceful and fair election as soon as possible (and certainly in the low season) with everyone agreeing to respect the outcome and then business can move on.

[ThaiPauly]

I heard that the top 5 floors of the Shangri- La Hotel have been temporarily closed till business picks up.

The Meridian still has hardly any customers, and one week had none at all.

I have recently seen three new hotels under construction, and I don't get out much so there are probably more

Had coffee at the Meridian this morning,first time I have been there. At least 20 people ,with lugggage, at the reception desk checking in and another dozen having coffee in the lobby. I don't think things are that bad at the Meridian at least.

I made that post nearly 2 years ago, its great to hear that things seem to be picking up now

[Beetlejuice]

Lets analyse the situation and put into categories:

Number 1 reason why tourists are down is because of the crap exchange rates, which means it will now cost a small fortune for a husband, wife with 2 kids for a 2 up to 4 week stay in Thailand.

Second: increases in airfares and airport taxes.

Third: the closures, restrictions and early closing of adult entertainments in Chiang Mai, meaning that for tourists who visit for the girls and bar scene will find Chiang Mai has become boring and they will go elsewhere.

Fourth: the idea of creating expensive spas (glorified massage parlours) some charging up to 3000 baht an hour and not affordable to the average holidaymaker, to build expensive posh hotels, introduce a panda into the zoo and the night safari which has obtained a terrible reputation for the bad treatment of it`s animals have all failed to attract more tourists.

Tourists are viewing Chiang Mai as not the best holidaying destination for reasons I have mentioned and unless something is done to revitalise and bring new sparkle into the city, the tourist figures will continue to decrease each year.

[Ulysses G.]

The lousy world economy should be somewhere on that list.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Tourists are viewing Chiang Mai as not the best holidaying destination for reasons I have mentioned and unless something is done to revitalise and bring new sparkle into the city, the tourist figures will continue to decrease each year.

I don't think economy-related factors matter that much, especially not longer term. Even right now you see that for example Phuket or Pattaya is doing much better.

So I think it's much simpler: Why are tourists coming to Chiang Mai? This used to be Western tourists coming for trekking and hilltribes, at a time when Thailand was one of the few countries in SE Asia where you could reasonably do that.

This is no longer the case: Hilltribe villages are developing (GOOD!!!) and other countries are more accessible. Tourists from countries like China and India are not going trekking, they're up to their neck in small tribal villages just fine at home!

Can this be changed back by doing anything whatsoever? No! Anything anyone in Chiang Mai does to increase tourism is inevitably artificial, and not a historically genuine thing. So the only tourist that Chiang Mai can HOPE to attract are those who like tacky artificial bullshit, such as the Night Safari or any attraction ever built in Pattaya: People from China, India, MIddle East (to a degree) and so on. And some golf tourists from Korea and Japan.

Personally I'm very happy just the way it is. I'm not looking forward to any increase in tourism from any market, and especially not India/China.

So: Just let go. Chiang Mai is a nice place to live, but what would you answer a tourist who asks "So.. what is the main attraction?" Look at Tripadvisor, lots of questions like that.

I think we're done with tourism from Western countries in Chiang Mai and that's GOOD. Some expats (the less desirable ones) who like the tourist scene may also leave, and that would be EVEN BETTER! Go on, pack up and go live in Cambodia or Pattaya!

Edited March 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Ulysses G.]

There are plenty of tourists who come to Chiang Mai with no interest in trekking and there always have been. I have seen the same people come back here and spend several months every year and new ones keep on coming (and telling me what a great city it is to hang out in).

I do not think that we need to write off Chiang Mai as a tourist destination just yet - no matter how much Winnie wants the place all to himself.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[jackers]

As I said on another thread I don't think Chiang Mai is anything special for the tourist, but it is appealing for people like myself who want to live here for a while. Maybe Chiang Mai just needs to repackage itself a bit.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

There are plenty of tourists who come to Chiang Mai with no interest in trekking and there always have been. I have seen the same people come back here and spend several months every year and new ones keep on coming (and telling me what a great city it is to hang out in).

I do not think that we need to write off Chiang Mai as a tourist destination just yet - no matter how much Winnie wants the place all to himself.

Wait: Of course when people DO actually come they like it, which results in return business. But for that to happen they do first need to get here. Without a major attraction to act as an 'excuse' to merit the trip up North, you will get less first time visitors.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As I said on another thread I don't think Chiang Mai is anything special for the tourist, but it is appealing for people like myself who want to live here for a while. Maybe Chiang Mai just needs to repackage itself a bit.

Yes. I suggest flooding half the country to create a beach just South of town.

[orang37]

... snip ... in due deference to Oragn37's asertion that Loi Kroh Rd shouldn't be the sole barometer of economic activity in Chiang Mai- is that over the 5 months of this high season to date, we at The Olde Bell are 25% up on last year and things are going pretty well. Talking to the hotel manager at the Raming Lodge next door he says his bookings for the low season are pretty good ...

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun OldeBellPedr,

Let us reassure you: you owe us no deference; it is to you that we give deference: as an example of a hard-working farang here who's sweated to make a solid business, and employee many Thais, and contribute valuably to the community !

Please do note that the comments:

It is intereting, to these eyeballs, to see how the mentions of Loy Kroh (the night-life dimension, not the restaurants, like the Olde Belle) are interwoven on this thread.

If we were going to choose an "economic" barometer for Chiang Mai's economic inputs, as a whole, for all foreigners, expat, and tourist, it would not be the strip of bars down Loy Kroh.

Were meant in reference only to the "night-life" (as in bar-beers) dimensions of Loy Kroh, not businesses like yours or the Raming Lodge.

Dare we assert that "sex hounds" are not a major economic input in the totality of Chiang Mai tourism ? But probably much more so in the nether pits of Bangkok and Pattaya ? Uhhhh ... maybe.

best, ~o:37;

Edited March 24, 2011 by orang37

[IanForbes]

Last night I could have chipped golf balls down the Loi Kroh strip, where the Thai-boxing is located, and not hit anyone. I doubt if I would have needed to shout "Fore!" either. It seems to be a night by night thing. I don't know if PunPun is open in the evening for supper or not, but when we went searching on Tuesday evening at 8 PM it looked to be closed.

[Gonzo the Face]

Last night I could have chipped golf balls down the Loi Kroh strip, where the Thai-boxing is located, and not hit anyone. I doubt if I would have needed to shout "Fore!" either. It seems to be a night by night thing. I don't know if PunPun is open in the evening for supper or not, but when we went searching on Tuesday evening at 8 PM it looked to be closed.

Geeze .... Sorry Ian, but we do close at *PM, whick is a long enough day for our single shift.[14hrs] but if you do get that urge again, just give a holler and we can stay a bit longer for the world famous catcher of fish and women.

Today we have a pork chop special served with newly arrived very, very, very thin apple sauce... so thin infact we have it in a glass.

Be great to meet you in person and will help us drive up the season numbers.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Gonzo the Face

[mic6ard]

One word, CRAP

[jackers]

As I said on another thread I don't think Chiang Mai is anything special for the tourist, but it is appealing for people like myself who want to live here for a while. Maybe Chiang Mai just needs to repackage itself a bit.

Yes. I suggest flooding half the country to create a beach just South of town.

Good idea, the undesirable expats can stay there.

[bristolgeoff]

from what i saw the season was down on tourist alittle from the previous year.still trying to get the tourist back to chiang mai

[folium]

Probably almost all the regular contributors to this forum are residents of CM and are residents because they have decided it's a great place to live.

What is of immense importance to CM and anyone running a business here that depends on tourism is that CM seems to have lost its pull as a must-do destination. When I first came to CM 26 years ago it was on EVERY tourist's agenda as a destination. Today what does CM have that can't be found better in other parts of Thailand or more importantly elsewhere in SE Asia?

First impressions do count. Many first-time visitors find CM an anticlimax. The new generation of tourists often hear from their parents about CM and its wonders. But that generation (myself included) could not readily access Cambodia, most of Burma or Laos, and Vietnam was no cake walk in the early 1980's.

I now spend my weekends exploring the areas around CM but longer trips are all spent outside Thailand as now that all of SE Asia is accessible, far better experiences in almost every form are found elsewhere.

To use that crass pseudo-economic term, what is CM's or even Thailand's USP (unique selling point) today? Being the global leader in sex tourism does not count and is a further indictment on how far the LOS has fallen.

I agree CM is a great place to live for all the reasons given in this and many other posts on TV, but for the tourist.....what is special/unique about CM? How can CM compete in an era when tourists can pick and choose any destination in SE Asia. Political unrest, despite being swept under the carpet remains the elephant in the room, and the next eruption will turn even more tourists to alternative destinations.

Mass tourism, over-development, environmental disinterest and shocking mismanagement has destroyed places such as Pattaya, Koh Samui, Phuket, Phi Phi in a classic rerun of the suicidal development of the Spanish Costas. The arrogance of the Thai tourist trade is breathtaking and if the solution lies in Russian tour groups and sex tourists worldwide what a sad situation LOS finds itself in

We are lucky to live here, but how many tourists come back? First impressions do count and while CM had a probably exaggerated positive reputation 25+ years ago, I fear that it now has lost its uniqueness as a tourist destination and reputation is something that outruns reality in both positive and negative directions.

[pjclark1]

Mass tourism at 70bht to the UKP/Euro/$

Limited tourism at 50bht to the whatever.

Lets face it at a 50% price rise in about 3 years things are unlikely to get better.

Tourism in CM will fall to a new natural lower level to match the effective price increase and nothing will make a difference to that apart from the exchange rates. By next year that new level should be apparent.

Those people still building hotels , restaurants and bars can 'talk up' the market as much as they like but there is nobody here to listen.

[folium]

To respond to Beetlejuice's post

Number 1 reason why tourists are down is because of the crap exchange rates, which means it will now cost a small fortune for a husband, wife with 2 kids for a 2 up to 4 week stay in Thailand.

True for western tourists to some degree, but what CM needs to do is to attract the top end of the western tourist trade, the folks who spend the real cash but demand great services, hotels, spas etc. Also the exchange rate issue is largely irrelevant for Asian tourists and like so many industries worldwide, capturing the Asian market over the next 20 years is crucial for tourism in any country. The Russian population is 113million and declining faster than almost any country in the world (shame...?) The population of SE Asia (ex-Thailand) is 500million, plus 1.3billion Chinese and India 1.1billion. Where would you want to lay your bet?

Second: increases in airfares and airport taxes.

Again tough on long haul budget western travellers, but your top-end tourists are not that price sensitive. A good 2-3 week holiday is almost priceless, remember these guys will drop $16-20,000 on a week's family skiing in the winter months. Also thank god for Air Asia and the other Low Cost Operators. SE Asia is one of the cheapest places in the world to fly around in and bring in those 2.9billion neighbours.

Third: the closures, restrictions and early closing of adult entertainments in Chiang Mai, meaning that for tourists who visit for the girls and bar scene will find Chiang Mai has become boring and they will go elsewhere.

What a loss, let Pattaya and other cesspits pick up that trade. Again CM needs to up its game, rather than pander to the lowest form of tourism. What you describe as a bar scene is merely a front for industrial scale exploitation of women and children. CM, and Thailand, needs to move on.

Fourth: the idea of creating expensive spas (glorified massage parlours) some charging up to 3000 baht an hour and not affordable to the average holidaymaker, to build expensive posh hotels, introduce a panda into the zoo and the night safari which has obtained a terrible reputation for the bad treatment of it`s animals have all failed to attract more tourists.

A quick analysis of Trip Advisor's top 20 attractions breaks them down as:

10 cookery schools

3 spas

2 elephant camps (Patara & ENP, not the sad circus shows)

2 wats

2 adventure tourism (rock climbing and mountain biking)

1 garden (Dokmai)

This is the future for CM tourism if it gets its game together. A destination based on "lifestyle" activities. But Tripadvisor is largely a reflection of western tourists (though this is changing)

Tourists are viewing Chiang Mai as not the best holidaying destination for reasons I have mentioned and unless something is done to revitalise and bring new sparkle into the city, the tourist figures will continue to decrease each year.

Quite agree that CM faces a problem but disagree on the nature of the problem.

The solution? Even 26 years ago you came to CM for the trekking but still had to head north towards Chiang Rai or north-west beyond Pai, or west to Mae Hong Son. CM was the gateway to all this. Now with almost the whole of Asia open for tourist business CM could become the gateway for travel to northern Burma, Yunnan, NW Laos etc, rather than being a northern Thailand dead end with precious few attractions. Also appealing to lifestyle tourists would pay off handsomely.

Second approach is to tap into the Asian market. CNX is woefully underused but fantastically well-located. An aggressive tourist office would get direct flights to Hong Kong, Mandalay, Shanghai, Mumbai, Jakarta for starters and provide class products to attract Asian middle class tourists to CM.

Doom and gloom? Yes, if backpackers and grubby bars are the answer. A little imagination (not poor copies of Night Safaris) and a broadening of the geographical perspective is required. Look at a map of SE Asia, CM has a fantastic location for regional tourism. This, plus the old reputation for misty, mountainside location, is how CM can dig itself out of its current malaise.

Edited March 24, 2011 by folium

[millwall_fan]

Lets analyse the situation and put into categories:

Number 1 reason why tourists are down is because of the crap exchange rates, which means it will now cost a small fortune for a husband, wife with 2 kids for a 2 up to 4 week stay in Thailand.

Second: increases in airfares and airport taxes.

Third: the closures, restrictions and early closing of adult entertainments in Chiang Mai, meaning that for tourists who visit for the girls and bar scene will find Chiang Mai has become boring and they will go elsewhere.

Fourth: the idea of creating expensive spas (glorified massage parlours) some charging up to 3000 baht an hour and not affordable to the average holidaymaker, to build expensive posh hotels, introduce a panda into the zoo and the night safari which has obtained a terrible reputation for the bad treatment of it`s animals have all failed to attract more tourists.

Tourists are viewing Chiang Mai as not the best holidaying destination for reasons I have mentioned and unless something is done to revitalise and bring new sparkle into the city, the tourist figures will continue to decrease each year.

You raise some pertinent points Beetlejuice but I'm not sure that any of them have affected tourism: The crap exchange rates are a result of the weak dollar, pound and Euro, but Thailand is still an economical destination: in the case of Brits, compared with popular destinations like Spain or Florida, Thailand compares very favourably

The airfares are really arnt an issue: a return fare from Uk to Thailand can be had for less than I paid when I first came here 16 years ago. You can get here for well under 500 GBP - it can cost well over half that to get to Spain in the season!

There is still plenty of 'adult entertainment' in Chiang Mai and if you can't get your rocks off by 2am, should you be bothering? - most guys looking for ladies don't come to Chiang Mai - they find the love of their life in Pattaya and bring her up here for a holiday- shortly before she mentions the sick buffalo or the aged granny who neeeds medical help

I agree with you about the Spas, but my wife rarely uses them for the reson you suggest

People come to Chiang Mai because it is a relaxed, safe and friendly place to come for a holiday - to enjoy being with easy going Thais, enjoy a gentle night life with easy going restaurants and pubs. some venture up to elephant camps or do a trek and the young folk come for the trekking and communing with nature. Seen in that light Chiang Mai still has lots to offer - and just because on a Wednesday night in March IanForbes can take his driver out without fear of hitting anyone, doesn't mean that there is no-one about generally. March is a shoulder season with some quiet nights and some busy. After Songkran it'll be low seaosn for a while, but even then there'll be a few tourist around. Chiang Mai is doing fine, don't worry!!

[anonymouse]

It's all about marketing if nobody has heard or knows about the product they are not going to buy it.

I know as a Brit that most of my fellow countrymen will have heard of Bangkok, koh Samui, Phuket and Pattaya but Chiang Mai is not on most of their maps I'm afraid and I'm sure that is the same for most of the Western speaking nations.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Great posts by Folium; I completely agree. The only difference is that I don't think the current situation is one that needs fixing. I could do without a billion visitors form the region.

Also: who says tourism in Chiang Mai is low; go talk to people in Phrae or Loei or Petchaboon and ask them about visitor numbers.. All incredibly scenic areas but virtually no international tourists.

Finally: (of course ) :

What a loss, let Pattaya and other cesspits pick up that trade. Again CM needs to up its game, rather than pander to the lowest form of tourism. What you describe as a bar scene is merely a front for industrial scale exploitation of women and children. CM, and Thailand, needs to move on.

My angle is a little different. I too agree that losing the tourist bars would not be a great loss. However I'm not under the impression this will dent the sex industry even slightly. I know it wouldn't bother me anyway. . (Regardless if you call it 'the sex industry', 'naughty nightlife' or 'exploitation of women' (and children, even).

WTK

Edited March 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[lannarebirth]

Tourists are viewing Chiang Mai as not the best holidaying destination for reasons I have mentioned and unless something is done to revitalise and bring new sparkle into the city, the tourist figures will continue to decrease each year.

I don't think economy-related factors matter that much, especially not longer term. Even right now you see that for example Phuket or Pattaya is doing much better.

So I think it's much simpler: Why are tourists coming to Chiang Mai? This used to be Western tourists coming for trekking and hilltribes, at a time when Thailand was one of the few countries in SE Asia where you could reasonably do that.

This is no longer the case: Hilltribe villages are developing (GOOD!!!) and other countries are more accessible. Tourists from countries like China and India are not going trekking, they're up to their neck in small tribal villages just fine at home!

Can this be changed back by doing anything whatsoever? No! Anything anyone in Chiang Mai does to increase tourism is inevitably artificial, and not a historically genuine thing. So the only tourist that Chiang Mai can HOPE to attract are those who like tacky artificial bullshit, such as the Night Safari or any attraction ever built in Pattaya: People from China, India, MIddle East (to a degree) and so on. And some golf tourists from Korea and Japan.

Personally I'm very happy just the way it is. I'm not looking forward to any increase in tourism from any market, and especially not India/China.

So: Just let go. Chiang Mai is a nice place to live, but what would you answer a tourist who asks "So.. what is the main attraction?" Look at Tripadvisor, lots of questions like that.

I think we're done with tourism from Western countries in Chiang Mai and that's GOOD. Some expats (the less desirable ones) who like the tourist scene may also leave, and that would be EVEN BETTER! Go on, pack up and go live in Cambodia or Pattaya!

Good post Winnie. I do see more of the Chinese, Middle Eastern, and to a lesser extent Indian tourists. You hit the nail on the head. They seem to love everything that is shit about this place. Thank goodness someone is buying it.

[IanForbes]

Last night I could have chipped golf balls down the Loi Kroh strip, where the Thai-boxing is located, and not hit anyone. I doubt if I would have needed to shout "Fore!" either. It seems to be a night by night thing. I don't know if PunPun is open in the evening for supper or not, but when we went searching on Tuesday evening at 8 PM it looked to be closed.

Geeze .... Sorry Ian, but we do close at *PM, whick is a long enough day for our single shift.[14hrs] but if you do get that urge again, just give a holler and we can stay a bit longer for the world famous catcher of fish and women.

Today we have a pork chop special served with newly arrived very, very, very thin apple sauce... so thin infact we have it in a glass.

Be great to meet you in person and will help us drive up the season numbers.

I'll make a point of coming again. It was a spur of the monent thing about going out for supper somewhere else but Kevin's own restaurant.

[Ricardo]

I'm slightly surprised that Trip Advisor has missed Chiang Mai's obvious claim-to-fame, as the global 'hub of wooden-frog-sellers', have none of them ever visited the Night-Bazaar ?

[AndersSN]

Best overall high season personally.

Ka-ching

[ThaiPauly]

I would love to see the powers that be turn the old Flora Exhibition gardens into a mini theme park.

I would think a mini-dinsey world would get the punters flocking to Chiang Mai.

IMHO the place is a real waste of space right now and could easily generate a lot of tourism if it was not just a flower garden with a few trams running round it. Hardly a great reason to visit CM is it?