Water Quality from Filtration System

[thetefldon]

 

The above photo is my home filtration system. There is no municipal water where I live and I get my water from a neighbours deep bore-hole. I have two tanks of 1000L one for dirty water, one for water after filtration through manganese, carbon and resin filter mediums. The filtered water from the holding tank is then passed through another cartridge filter(blue housing to right of Resin tank) before entering the house. The water on inspection in a glass appears clean.  However if you leave for an hour or so a white scum forms on the top. I left to dry this forms a white powder. I tried to photograph this but image poor. Over the 5 years the system has been in place I have replaced the filter mediums twice and had one new filtration tanks. I am currently replacing the pump to the house that is malfunctioning possibly because of the water quality passing through it.

 

Over the same time period(5 yrs) I have had to replace several taps, an electric shower unit and cut off valves in the house because they became clogged with a stone like substance(possibly bad lime scale).

 

Now a couple of questions.

 

1. Any idea what the white substance might be?

 

2. Any suggestions how to improve filtration?

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

Just guessing it's calcium which can only be filtered effectively with RO.  A water softener will change the properties.  Maybe not worry?

[northsouthdevide]

We also have a similar situation with our water from a bore hole. 

I also think it's calcium. 

After filtering, it's certainly clean enough to shower with, but it leaves a horrible limescale like residue on our taps and mixer shower. 

I have read that adding sodium bicarbonate to your water tank would help, but I haven't got around to trying it yet myself, so can't say for sure. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by northsouthdevide

[bankruatsteve]

Not much you can do except live with it and de-scale from time to time.  It will corrode the cheap valves/faucets though.  OR - put a water softener in line and live with the slight saltiness of the water.  I doubt baking soda in the tank is going to do anything.

[bankruatsteve]

6 minutes ago, Arjen said:

I never heard that a softener will leave the water slightly salty?

You're right.  I've never owned one but have showered, etc. in places that do.  I guess I just prefer "hard" water.  ????

[thetefldon]

Many thanks for all your replies. I should have perhaps added to my OP that I backwash the system(each tank) every 14 days. The Resin also get regenerated with salt as part of the process.

 

I assumed(probably incorrectly) that the Resin tank is to deal with water hardness and in theory should deal with limescale.

 

As an aside I just found another leaking valve in the bathroom. Clearly needs replacing, when I removed it it was gunged up with scale and would not close fully!

 

Am I right in saying RO stands for reverse osmosis(bankrautsteve)?

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, thetefldon said:

Am I right in saying RO stands for reverse osmosis(bankrautsteve)?

Yes.  But, normally only used for drinking water.  

[faraday]

How much would a filter system, as shown in the op cost?

 

[Lacessit]

Calcium deposition comes in two forms, calcium carbonate or calcium sulphate.

It's easy enough to test if the deposit is calcium carbonate.

Just pour a bit of vinegar over it. If it fizzes, voila. Calcium sulphate would need EDTA to dissolve it.

Have you ever had your input and output water analyzed by a laboratory? It's worth doing to know what parts of the purification system need beefing up.

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, thetefldon said:

Many thanks for all your replies.

not including issues from deposits, what is the on going cost of the filter replacement?

 

do you have a annual cost figure?    

[BritManToo]

Just now, NCC1701A said:

not including issues from deposits, what is the on going cost of the filter replacement?

do you have a annual cost figure?    

I just bought a partable one from China, 350bht delivered, will filter 5,000l.

So assuming I use 5l of water a day, 1000 days = 3 years.

(filters 0.01 micron)

 

Annual cost = 120bht.

Edited May 17, 2020 by BritManToo

[thetefldon]

1 hour ago, faraday said:

How much would a filter system, as shown in the op cost?

 

Including 2 pumps, 2 tanks, 3 filtration units, filter medium, pipe work and fitting it cost me around 70,000 Baht 5 years ago.

[thetefldon]

1 hour ago, NCC1701A said:

not including issues from deposits, what is the on going cost of the filter replacement?

 

do you have a annual cost figure?    

I replace the filter medium around every 18 months as the bore hole water is very dirty.  Activated carbon, Manganese and Resin. Can't remember the volume but it costs around 9000 Baht to fill the 3 units. Two adults in the house, two bathrooms, kitchen and utility room run off the tanks. I don't cost it but it is bloody expensive water before anyone says it!!

[thetefldon]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Calcium deposition comes in two forms, calcium carbonate or calcium sulphate.

It's easy enough to test if the deposit is calcium carbonate.

Just pour a bit of vinegar over it. If it fizzes, voila. Calcium sulphate would need EDTA to dissolve it.

Have you ever had your input and output water analyzed by a laboratory? It's worth doing to know what parts of the purification system need beefing up.

I buy my vinegar in bulk from Macro, bet they think I have a pickle factory. Certainly works as you point out. Thanks for other info too. I have not had water analysed I went to local water company and asked if they could do it....they just smiled. Lab analysis is very expensive I believe.....any tips?

Edited May 17, 2020 by thetefldon

[beau thai]

are the xiaomi type pen quality monitors (190bht) any good for at least checking ppm for drinking water??

[bankruatsteve]

19 minutes ago, beau thai said:

are the xiaomi type pen quality monitors (190bht) any good for at least checking ppm for drinking water??

If you need ppm for salts, minerals, and most metals, they can do that.  They do not detect pathogens/pollution type of thing - need a lab for that.

[thetefldon]

On 5/18/2020 at 2:56 PM, bankruatsteve said:

If you need ppm for salts, minerals, and most metals, they can do that.  They do not detect pathogens/pollution type of thing - need a lab for that.

Thanks for that, most helpful. And other respondents too.

Is chlorination effective for killing Bacteria and Viruses? If so, would you apply it to the water in the dirty tank or to the water in the clean tank that has passed through the filter system? Is it practical to chlorinate and if so how do you do it? I ask the latter question because during the day the water is moving between tanks when we are at home using the supply. Can you build something into the system or do you need to add chemicals to the tank(s)?

Many thanks.

[bankruatsteve]

7 minutes ago, thetefldon said:

If so, would you apply it to the water in the dirty tank or to the water in the clean tank that has passed through the filter system? Is it practical to chlorinate and if so how do you do it?

I would put two cap fulls of bleach per 500 liter in the "dirty" tank.  That should kill any pathogen and algae.  Then, your filters would filter out any chlorine left although not necessary.

[Lacessit]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:25 PM, BritManToo said:

I just bought a partable one from China, 350bht delivered, will filter 5,000l.

So assuming I use 5l of water a day, 1000 days = 3 years.

(filters 0.01 micron)

 

Annual cost = 120bht.

The amount of water a filter will deliver is dependent on the amount of suspended solids in the water that is going into it. Might be 1000 litres before it clogs up, might be 10,000 litres.

Any manufacturer that claims 5000 litres for a filter is just bulls###ting the buyer.

[bankruatsteve]

10 minutes ago, Arjen said:

evreything has to be chemical polished from the inside, or heated to something like 200 degrees.

I hope Trump doesn't hear this.  ????

[Lacessit]

26 minutes ago, thetefldon said:

Thanks for that, most helpful. And other respondents too.

Is chlorination effective for killing Bacteria and Viruses? If so, would you apply it to the water in the dirty tank or to the water in the clean tank that has passed through the filter system? Is it practical to chlorinate and if so how do you do it? I ask the latter question because during the day the water is moving between tanks when we are at home using the supply. Can you build something into the system or do you need to add chemicals to the tank(s)?

Many thanks.

Chlorination of dirty water is going to require more chlorine, because before one can get to a state of free available chlorine to guarantee a kill of bacteria and viruses, the organic compounds in the water consume chlorine first. Against that, there are bacteria and viruses proliferating in the filters if chlorination is done afterwards.

Chlorinated water does not taste good, best way to get drinking water is to boil it, which drives off chlorine and chloramines.

[Fruit Trader]

55 minutes ago, thetefldon said:

Is chlorination effective for killing Bacteria and Viruses? If so, would you apply it to the water in the dirty tank or to the water in the clean tank that has passed through the filter system? Is it practical to chlorinate and if so how do you do it?

We chlorinate well water for use in a washing process. The water is drawn from a shallow well, chlorinated to approx 4 ppm using a metering pump then passed through a sediment filter and stored in a 4000 L contact tank.

The metering pump is started using flow control with a few safety features to limit failure.

Have your water tested and obtain professional advice before attempting disinfection using chlorine.

[thetefldon]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Chlorination of dirty water is going to require more chlorine, because before one can get to a state of free available chlorine to guarantee a kill of bacteria and viruses, the organic compounds in the water consume chlorine first. Against that, there are bacteria and viruses proliferating in the filters if chlorination is done afterwards.

Chlorinated water does not taste good, best way to get drinking water is to boil it, which drives off chlorine and chloramines.

Thanks, plus all the other useful contributions.  Just so everyone knows I don't drink the water or use it for cooking, I just use it for showers, washing etc

[Mama Noodle]

I would urge OP to take a step back and not put any more money into that system. Its impressive but looks insanely expensive. 

 

IMO the first step would be to spend the money and get the water thoroughly tested by a lab to see exactly what the contaminates are, then see if its viable/cost effective to stack another system on top of all that to target just those offending contaminates (likely calcium/lime). 

 

Then see if the yearly cost of maintaining the above system VS scrapping the entire thing and going with a reverse osmosis system. 

 

Im inclined to think at this point it might be better to scrap it all and go with RO. 5 years ago (when you got the system) RO wasn't as available as it is now. 

[thetefldon]

17 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

I would urge OP to take a step back and not put any more money into that system. Its impressive but looks insanely expensive. 

 

IMO the first step would be to spend the money and get the water thoroughly tested by a lab to see exactly what the contaminates are, then see if its viable/cost effective to stack another system on top of all that to target just those offending contaminates (likely calcium/lime). 

 

Then see if the yearly cost of maintaining the above system VS scrapping the entire thing and going with a reverse osmosis system. 

 

Im inclined to think at this point it might be better to scrap it all and go with RO. 5 years ago (when you got the system) RO wasn't as available as it is now. 

Many thanks for the explanation. I know very little about a "RO" system other than knowing about the theory behind RO.  Not sure how it would fit in with the supply I have(bore-hole) but I shall investigate. Just for your info. The set-up in the pic on OP cost around 70,000 5 years ago and my water costs me about 500 Baht a month(150 Baht to my neighbour for raw water, filter medium, maintenance costs and electricity). Expensive but no municipal water so I have little choice.

[bankruatsteve]

FYI: Whole house RO systems are very expensive and do require water softeners to take out the metals before the RO.  (else efficiency is reduced and need to replace filters more often)  RO systems range from 20% to 80% efficiency.  IE: the best systems will have 20% of the water go to waste.  They require pressure ranging from 80 to 140 PSI so even more equipment.  IMO it is very difficult to justify a whole house RO system.

[Mama Noodle]

14 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

FYI: Whole house RO systems are very expensive and do require water softeners to take out the metals before the RO.  (else efficiency is reduced and need to replace filters more often)  RO systems range from 20% to 80% efficiency.  IE: the best systems will have 20% of the water go to waste.  They require pressure ranging from 80 to 140 PSI so even more equipment.  IMO it is very difficult to justify a whole house RO system.

 

Reverse Osmosis systems do remove metals, Steve. It isnt necessary to have a pre-system to remove them. There is waste, and typically a sound system has about a 20% wastewater expenditure, but so does a basic filter system (like OP has) with backwash.

 

Not trying to argue, and with the money that OP has in his system and the maintenance, its imperative that he educates himself and makes the best choice available. 

 

My view is that OP's system is much like a car thats on its way out. Repairs cost more than the car is worth. 

[bankruatsteve]

10 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

Reverse Osmosis systems do remove metals, Steve. It isnt necessary to have a pre-system to remove them.

Of course they do but not the most efficient way to do it.  All whole house RO systems will have pre-filters and softeners as part of the package.

[Mama Noodle]

7 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Of course they do but not the most efficient way to do it.  All whole house RO systems will have pre-filters and softeners as part of the package.

 

Im just saying that he should take it all in and see what's the most cost effective. An upscaled 3500 baht lazada RO system would eliminate 99% of OP's problems, have multiple filtration systems and UV lights. Of course they have pre-filters, its part of the package. 

 

Again, my analogy being an old car costs more to fix rather than to replace. 

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

An upscaled 3500 baht lazada RO system would eliminate 99% of OP's problems,

The OP says he doesn't use his system for drinking or cooking.  There is no way to upscale a Lazada RO system for whole house.  The only "problem" the OP mentioned is lime scale and RO is definitely not the best way to take care of that.