Britain nears abandoning Brexit trade deal hope - The Telegraph

[7by7]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Trade agreements with other countries could wipe most of these out completely.

 What trade agreements?

 

How many countries are lining up outside Liz Truss' office wanting to do deals with us?

[7by7]

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

HMG clearly getting on with it:

 

UK Statement to the WTO Dispute Settlement Body on Appellate Body Appointments

 

Joint Statement of the 14th Meeting of the India-UK Joint Economic and Trade Committee

 

Negotiations on the UK’s future trading relationship with New Zealand: Update

 

Four years after the referendum and we are still negotiating and issuing statements of intent!

 

Where are the actual off the shelf deals with countries desperate to trade with us that the Leave campaign promised?

[evadgib]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Four years after the referendum and we are still negotiating and issuing statements of intent!

 

Where are the actual off the shelf deals with countries desperate to trade with us that the Leave campaign promised?

Get answers from the government and public sector

HTH

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, candide said:

Interesting list. It looks like they are all extensions of current deals with the EU.

That's because they are.

 

It's called 'rolled over.'

 

Non of those countries are major trading partners with the UK.

 

Of the top ten:

 

Note that only two of those countries, the US and China, are not in the single market. We currently trade with them via the agreements they have with the EU.

 

Four months to go until we leave the single market at the end of the transition period. Yet to date we are nowhere near completing an agreement with either of them!

[7by7]

Clicked in error.

Edited July 31, 2020 by 7by7

[7by7]

8 minutes ago, evadgib said:

19 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Four years after the referendum and we are still negotiating and issuing statements of intent!

 

Where are the actual off the shelf deals with countries desperate to trade with us that the Leave campaign promised?

Get answers from the government and public sector

HTH

 In other words, you don't know.

 

So I'll tell you; they never existed!

 

As for the deals which have actually been concluded, apart from those rolled over from EU deals listed earlier, there are none.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 In other words, you don't know.

 

So I'll tell you; they never existed!

 

As for the deals which have actually been concluded, apart from those rolled over from EU deals listed earlier, there are none.

'Do your own legwork'! ????

Edited July 31, 2020 by evadgib

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 In other words, you don't know.

 

So I'll tell you; they never existed!

 

As for the deals which have actually been concluded, apart from those rolled over from EU deals listed earlier, there are none.

But you have to remember. English exceptionalism. Jonny Foreigner is going to collapse, submit and roll over because of that.

These guys knew what they were voting for.

We should put our trust in them that they were right and we were all wrong.

[evadgib]

38 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But you have to remember. English exceptionalism. Jonny Foreigner is going to collapse, submit and roll over because of that.

These guys knew what they were voting for.

We should put our trust in them that they were right and we were all wrong.

49 is ???????????????????????????? is he not?

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Maybe if you actually lived in the UK you'd feel different!

 

Why not counter this 'misinformation' with some facts of your own?

 

Oh, I forgot; you don't do facts!

 

Some examples?

 

Oh, I forgot; you don't do facts.

 

That'll be anyone who actually lives in the UK and watches Boris and his ministers perform.

Were I live (or don't live) makes no difference to the way I feel about a bright future for UK. It's a positive mindset, not one subservient to the EU masters.

I give you the facts and the benefit of my opinion, but simply don't feel the need for reassurance from the internet as you seem to do. Do you actually believe everything you read there? As I've told you before, I won't go searching for your entertainment.

You have no idea how Boris and his ministers perform. I suspect very few people actually do, even those in the higher echelons. Definitely not those who make a living from writing about it in the left leaning press, so you as an avid reader would have even less idea.

[RayC]

6 hours ago, kingdong said:

cause the eu needs us more than we need it,whos going to make up the shortfall of our financial contribution?glad you,ve finally saw sense.

Well sarcasm is the lowest form of wit so I've only got myself to blame if someone takes my comment at face value.

 

Who's going to make up the shortfall of UK contributions? Looks like the EU already did: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/the-eu-budget/long-term-eu-budget-2021-2027/#:~:text=Meeting in Brussels%2C EU leaders,the digital and green transitions.&text=We have reached a deal,package and the European budget.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 What trade agreements?

 

How many countries are lining up outside Liz Truss' office wanting to do deals with us?

Future agreements, Grumpy.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

Well sarcasm is the lowest form of wit so I've only got myself to blame if someone takes my comment at face value.

 

Who's going to make up the shortfall of UK contributions? Looks like the EU already did: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/the-eu-budget/long-term-eu-budget-2021-2027/#:~:text=Meeting in Brussels%2C EU leaders,the digital and green transitions.&text=We have reached a deal,package and the European budget.

The EU didn't, they never have. It's all money from members' treasuries (taxes). 

[RayC]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

See my post above.

99% of economists and their models point to both the UK and the EU losing economically as a result of Brexit (Patrick Mumford is the only outlier who springs to mind, and outlier is definitely the operative word). Of that 99%, almost all believe that the UK will suffer the greatest hit. Example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2019/03/21/brexit-will-cost-the-eu-40-billion-annually-study-founds

Even in the unlikely event that the EU suffers more than the UK, this in itself seems to be an economic sado-masochistic justification (We will suffer pain but your's will be greater). 

 

The only rational argument for leaving the EU rests on the notion of sovereignty. Yes by leaving the EU Westminster, rather than Brussels, will be sovereign. But what does that mean in practice? 

 

"Since 1999, when legislative records became available to the public for the first time in an accessible format, the UK has voted “no” to legislation on 57 occasions. It has voted “yes” 2,474 times and abstained from voting 70 times. This translates into the UK opposing 2% of legislation" (Source: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-often-is-the-uk-outvoted-in-brussels/#).

 

So, 4 years of wrangling, likely future depressed economic growth plus (probably) upteen millions of future manhours in unnecessary trade related work, all for the sake of claiming back 2% more sovereignty. Worth it? Not in my book. 

 

PS. Will we really be any more sovereign? In the absence of a deal with the EU, the UK will be even more desperate for a trade deal with the US. The likely price? Amongst other things, a lowering of animal welfare standards requiring a change in UK law. Sovereignty and choice indeed!

[RayC]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The EU didn't, they never have. It's all money from members' treasuries (taxes). 

Of course the EU isn't self-financing. It is financed by it's members. What's your point?

[kingdong]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

99% of economists and their models point to both the UK and the EU losing economically as a result of Brexit (Patrick Mumford is the only outlier who springs to mind, and outlier is definitely the operative word). Of that 99%, almost all believe that the UK will suffer the greatest hit. Example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2019/03/21/brexit-will-cost-the-eu-40-billion-annually-study-founds

Even in the unlikely event that the EU suffers more than the UK, this in itself seems to be an economic sado-masochistic justification (We will suffer pain but your's will be greater). 

 

The only rational argument for leaving the EU rests on the notion of sovereignty. Yes by leaving the EU Westminster, rather than Brussels, will be sovereign. But what does that mean in practice? 

 

"Since 1999, when legislative records became available to the public for the first time in an accessible format, the UK has voted “no” to legislation on 57 occasions. It has voted “yes” 2,474 times and abstained from voting 70 times. This translates into the UK opposing 2% of legislation" (Source: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-often-is-the-uk-outvoted-in-brussels/#).

 

So, 4 years of wrangling, likely future depressed economic growth plus (probably) upteen millions of future manhours in unnecessary trade related work, all for the sake of claiming back 2% more sovereignty. Worth it? Not in my book. 

 

PS. Will we really be any more sovereign? In the absence of a deal with the EU, the UK will be even more desperate for a trade deal with the US. The likely price? Amongst other things, a lowering of animal welfare standards requiring a change in UK law. Sovereignty and choice indeed!

with the pending worldwide depression would have thought brexit and what might or might not happen, wuld pale into insignificance who are all these so called experts making their prophesies?heres one for you if you think the migration crisis is bad now wait till the depression starts biting,at least Britain will be out of freedom of movement.

[kingdong]

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

Of course the EU isn't self-financing. It is financed by it's members. What's your point?

the remaining members will have to make the shortfall up?being in the eu always reminded me of taking a thai girl out and visiting a bar where she used to work where she proceeds to buy all her mates drinks and the bill goes on your tab very generous with other peoples money.

[Opl]

10 minutes ago, kingdong said:

the remaining members will have to make the shortfall up?being in the eu always reminded me of taking a thai girl out and visiting a bar where she used to work where she proceeds to buy all her mates drinks and the bill goes on your tab very generous with other peoples money.

to make a long story short...what to be part of the EU means:

Edited July 31, 2020 by Opl

[Chelseafan]

On 7/28/2020 at 2:51 PM, candide said:

Too bad, because it's quite interesting. It reports a study to be published by LSE that shows a differentiated impact of Brexit, depending on industry sectors.  To my surprise (????), it even shows a positive impact on some sectors.

 

These reports always remind me of the quote from the West Wing

 

LEO : "Luther, Ballpark. One year from today. Where's the Dow ?"

Luther: "Tremendous. Up a Thousand"

LEO: "Fred, One year from today?"

Fred "Not good. Down a thousand"

LEO : "A year from today at least one of you is gonna look pretty stupid"

 

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Of course the EU isn't self-financing. It is financed by it's members. What's your point?

You just said it but you were promoting the EU and their most recent piece of bartering, which has just caused even more disunity within the "union". My point is that the EU has not made up the shortfall but forced some individual but relatively wealthy nations to do it, as well as be the main donors of the virus recovery fund. These nations are understandably unhappy. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

99% of economists and their models point to both the UK and the EU losing economically as a result of Brexit (Patrick Mumford is the only outlier who springs to mind, and outlier is definitely the operative word). Of that 99%, almost all believe that the UK will suffer the greatest hit. Example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2019/03/21/brexit-will-cost-the-eu-40-billion-annually-study-founds

Even in the unlikely event that the EU suffers more than the UK, this in itself seems to be an economic sado-masochistic justification (We will suffer pain but your's will be greater). 

 

The only rational argument for leaving the EU rests on the notion of sovereignty. Yes by leaving the EU Westminster, rather than Brussels, will be sovereign. But what does that mean in practice? 

 

"Since 1999, when legislative records became available to the public for the first time in an accessible format, the UK has voted “no” to legislation on 57 occasions. It has voted “yes” 2,474 times and abstained from voting 70 times. This translates into the UK opposing 2% of legislation" (Source: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-often-is-the-uk-outvoted-in-brussels/#).

 

So, 4 years of wrangling, likely future depressed economic growth plus (probably) upteen millions of future manhours in unnecessary trade related work, all for the sake of claiming back 2% more sovereignty. Worth it? Not in my book. 

 

PS. Will we really be any more sovereign? In the absence of a deal with the EU, the UK will be even more desperate for a trade deal with the US. The likely price? Amongst other things, a lowering of animal welfare standards requiring a change in UK law. Sovereignty and choice indeed!

There is no doubt that both the UK and the EU will lose economically as a result of Brexit. The relevant question I think is by how much?

 

I think that your method to calculate sovereignty by legislation by voting is flawed. We don't get a vote on most of the legislation that we have to accept. 

[RayC]

59 minutes ago, kingdong said:

with the pending worldwide depression would have thought brexit and what might or might not happen, wuld pale into insignificance who are all these so called experts making their prophesies?

So you move to the 'bash the experts' argument after failing, yet again, to address directly the points in question. I cited you sources to support my stance, but you cannot produce a single source to counter my argument.

59 minutes ago, kingdong said:

 

heres one for you if you think the migration crisis is bad now wait till the depression starts biting,at least Britain will be out of freedom of movement.

If you are talking about EU mitigation to the UK, then it has been decreasing steadily since the vote to leave and there doesn't appear to be any great change recently.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

the remaining members will have to make the shortfall up?being in the eu always reminded me of taking a thai girl out and visiting a bar where she used to work where she proceeds to buy all her mates drinks and the bill goes on your tab very generous with other peoples money.

Or alternatively, it's like being in a football club where the younger and/or less wealthy members often pay a lower annual subscription than other members.

[torturedsole]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

Or alternatively, it's like being in a football club where the younger and/or less wealthy members often pay a lower annual subscription than other members.

That's great when it comes to a football club, but in politics it's socialism.  “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”  Margaret Thatcher.  

[RayC]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You just said it but you were promoting the EU and their most recent piece of bartering, which has just caused even more disunity within the "union". My point is that the EU has not made up the shortfall but forced some individual but relatively wealthy nations to do it, as well as be the main donors of the virus recovery fund. These nations are understandably unhappy. 

Some member states may well be happier/ unhappier than others; it's to be expected. However, the original question was about how the financial shortfall caused by the UK's exit would be tackled. This has been done.

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. We export all that dairy to the EU because the EU IS our domestic market.

Once we are out then the EU will continue to source its dairy from domestic sources. Ireland. So poor old Ireland is actually going to score out of this.

The UK on the other hand is going to be sitting on a huge pile of dairy it cant sell. 

 

Your argument is fundamentally flawed - the continental Europeans don't have the same taste for Irish dairy products that the UK has.

 

I'm surprised you didn't know that!

[RayC]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

There is no doubt that both the UK and the EU will lose economically as a result of Brexit. The relevant question I think is by how much?

Quite an admission.

 

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I think that your method to calculate sovereignty by legislation by voting is flawed. We don't get a vote on most of the legislation that we have to accept. 

Please elaborate. What examples are there of EU regulations having passed into UK law that the UK objected to but did not have the opportunity to vote against?

 

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

Some member states may well be happier/ unhappier than others; it's to be expected. However, the original question was about how the financial shortfall caused by the UK's exit would be tackled. This has been done.

Oh yes, it's been done alright.

Edited July 31, 2020 by nauseus

[RayC]

5 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

That's great when it comes to a football club, but in politics it's socialism.  “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”  Margaret Thatcher.  

You have a great moniker and it sums up exactly how I feel at the moment!

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

Quite an admission.

 

Please elaborate. What examples are there of EU regulations having passed into UK law that the UK objected to but did not have the opportunity to vote against?

 

I have never denied that there would be economic and other problems. Not just for the UK, though.

 

Treaty law, directives and regulations.