How to wire this?

[Polarizing]

Hi TV again!

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/BpfBrHb

I want to move the outlet and the two switches to the tubes where I created the hole. The left tube with 4 white wires is leading to the outlet and the switches CURRENTLY, however since there is no ground wire in the socket I am thinking of connecting the right tube's collored wires with the socket (this one is leading to the socket that was wrongly wired that I posted yesterday).

The challenge for me would be to determine how to wire the switch, can someone guide me with this? And since I will be using the colored wires, does this mean I have an extra neutral which I can use for a smart switch if i wish to do so?

-All of these wires are on the same switch in the breakerbox. 

Thanks!!

Edited July 22, 2020 by Polarizing

[steven100]

A bit easier for folks to see :

[bankruatsteve]

No idea what you want to achieve.  You mention no ground and wanting to do something instead?  NO.  Ground is ground. There is no such thing as an "extra neutral".  There is no such thing as a "smart switch" using such.  

 

What is it that you want to do?  "Moving the outlets and switches to the tubes" is not enough information.

[Grumpy one]

How do you test the power cable stand in a puddle and hold 1 wire

[Polarizing]

3 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

No idea what you want to achieve.  You mention no ground and wanting to do something instead?  NO.  Ground is ground. There is no such thing as an "extra neutral".  There is no such thing as a "smart switch" using such.  

 

What is it that you want to do?  "Moving the outlets and switches to the tubes" is not enough information.

if you click on the link I provided you can see that in the socket there is no ground connected, the picture that steven posted does not show the whole picture. How do we solve that. Well in the picture with the two tubes where I made the two openings, you can  see that theres a tube with colored wires in it. We can just use those three wires to make the outlet.

So when we disconnect the outlet from the white wires,  there are some wires that are left over (If its a neutral, I would think that I can use it for a smart switch)

I just want to move the outlet and the switch to where I made the tube openings...

[Metropolitian]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

 There is no such thing as an "extra neutral".  There is no such thing as a "smart switch" using such. 

I think it could be interpreted as:  For future installation of a smart switch, there need to be a neutral wire present.

 

Most switches only has the live wire. One hot live wire coming from the CU and one switched live wire going to the lightpoint. At the light point there is neutral.

 

[Polarizing]

2 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

I think it could be interpreted as:  For future installation of a smart switch, there need to be a neutral wire present.

 

Most switches only has the live wire. One hot live wire coming from the CU and one switched live wire going to the lightpoint. At the light point there is neutral.

 

Okay what im saying is that I have at least two neutrals there. One in the tube with collored wires, one in the white wire tube.

[Metropolitian]

Can you take a picture of the whole setup? Where are the other wires going to (socket?) and where are the switch and unearthed socket located?

This would help us with telling how to pull cables and locations for taps.

 

For the switch/unearthed socket in the photo. It looks like the one with the black tape marks are the live wire, which are taped off from a blue wire somewhere in the attic/walls,  and the  thinnier white wire (1.5sqmm)  is the real neutral. But very bad practice.

Do you have testing gears? Like a neon light test probe/screwdriver?

 

 

[Metropolitian]

1 hour ago, Polarizing said:

(this one is leading to the socket that was wrongly wired that I posted yesterday)

Then I have to forget about the coloring in the CU. We can't rely on the wiring system, and coloring, in the CU and this situation outside.

Four white wires going to the unearthed socket and switches, one of them being neutral and one live and two switched live (or neutral..).

 

There must be a tap in the ceiling/wall where the blue wire became white.

Now I can't be sure that the switches are switching live OR the neutral wire.

 

And who can tell, that the 'wrong' socket is indeed wrong, maybe it is good but somewhere in the line the color of the wire changed.

 

With good testing and marking we can be sure.

Photos are getting useless now, unfortunately.

[Polarizing]

8 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Then I have to forget about the coloring in the CU. We can't rely on the wiring system, and coloring, in the CU and this situation outside.

Four white wires going to the unearthed socket and switches, one of them being neutral and one live and two switched live (or neutral..).

 

There must be a tap in the ceiling/wall where the blue wire became white.

Now I can't be sure that the switches are switching live OR the neutral wire.

 

And who can tell, that the 'wrong' socket is indeed wrong, maybe it is good but somewhere in the line the color of the wire changed.

 

With good testing and marking we can be sure.

Photos are getting useless now, unfortunately.

As far as I can tell, i see no thinnier wire here. All same sized. We don't know which wire exactly is.

The switch and the outlet from the upper picture comes from the left circle.
All 4 wires are pulled somewhere from the ceiling, since thais don't match colors they became all white, no surprise here.

I have testing gear, but what I am more interested in a step by step plan than to actually test it, because I drilled into a wire somewhere else in my condo and I did not fix that yet (same breaker switch).

and we dont know if the wrong socket is really wrong or not for now, but I know how to confirm that.

I actually think that this picture might confuse people even more haha...
 

[Metropolitian]

43 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

As far as I can tell, i see no thinnier wire here. All same sized. We don't know which wire exactly is.

It looks like it is.. or it's an effect of angle/fisheye from the camera ????

 

 

[Polarizing]

15 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

It looks like it is.. or it's an effect of angle/fisheye from the camera ????

 

 

How can I check it? 

[Metropolitian]

47 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

I actually think that this picture might confuse people even more haha...
 

Not that much confusing ???? it made more clearly that those are two separated lines. Then another question will arise, are they both on the same breaker or different?

 

This is important for the solution, as we wouldn't mess it up with shared neutrals, which will works until when you, or next owner, decide to replace breakers for rcbo's and the load of the wiring.

(Load of two live wires with both their own rated breaker and the flowback of both over one neutral line which has to be avoided. )

 

Quote

 

The switch and the outlet from the upper picture comes from the left circle.
All 4 wires are pulled somewhere from the ceiling, since thais don't match colors they became all white, no surprise here.

I have testing gear, but what I am more interested in a step by step plan than to actually test it, because I drilled into a wire somewhere else in my condo and I did not fix that yet (same breaker switch).

and we dont know if the wrong socket is really wrong or not for now, but I know how to confirm that.

 

 

The steps are:

1. With the switches in 'off' position ; first measure which one of the white wire is the 'hot wire' and mark it.

   - If it is the one with the many black tape, then we know that that one was supposed to be the blue wire (in your case blue, in proper case it's brown or red). and also means that at the light points the fittings are neutral and switched-live.

2. pull the wiring out the new hole if you giving up the holes beneath, are you?

3. Forget the neutral in the left pipe just leave it here for future 'smart switch'

4. At the location of the hole use the wiring from the right pipe for the outlet. (Get a wall plate for both switches and power outlet.

 

For the right wire, to be sure about the wiring:

1. Measure between the blue and white = 220v

2. Measure between the green and blue = 220v

3. Measure between the green and white = 0v

4. Disconnect the neutral bar from the main switch (this turns off everything in home so do during the day and in the right order: mains off. disconnect. mains on)

5. Measure between the  green and blue = 220v

 

If step 5 is true, then the wiring at the outlet is ok and green is really the earth wire.

[Metropolitian]

2 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

How can I check it? 

Not to worry about now, it just look like it and could help with identifying if they are sized different.

But it probably isn't it would be obvious if they are by just comparing them with your eyes. (phone)Cameras does in fact little distorting of the image and perspective.

[Metropolitian]

8 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Not that much confusing ???? it made more clearly that those are two separated lines. Then another question will arise, are they both on the same breaker or different?

 

3 hours ago, Polarizing said:

-All of these wires are on the same switch in the breakerbox. 

 

 

Just to be sure, there was a reason there are two tubes coming down from the ceiling.. ????

[Polarizing]

4 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

 

 

The steps are:

1. With the switches in 'off' position ; first measure which one of the white wire is the 'hot wire' and mark it.

   - If it is the one with the many black tape, then we know that that one was supposed to be the blue wire (in your case blue, in proper case it's brown or red). and also means that at the light points the fittings are neutral and switched-live.

2. pull the wiring out the new hole if you giving up the holes beneath, are you?

3. Forget the neutral in the left pipe just leave it here for future 'smart switch'

4. At the location of the hole use the wiring from the right pipe for the outlet. (Get a wall plate for both switches and power outlet.

 

For the right wire, to be sure about the wiring:

1. Measure between the blue and white = 220v

2. Measure between the green and blue = 220v

3. Measure between the green and white = 0v

4. Disconnect the neutral bar from the main switch (this turns off everything in home so do during the day and in the right order: mains off. disconnect. mains on)

5. Measure between the  green and blue = 220v

 

If step 5 is true, then the wiring at the outlet is ok and green is really the earth wire.

Thanks for trying to understand my abstract artwork! this kind of answer was exactly what i was looking for!

-1 There should be at least 2 hot wires right? 1 for each of the lights? In which hole should I put it then? I never wired lighting before and do not fully understand that point.

-2. yes giving up the holes beneath
-3 Everything is on the same breaker, does this mean I can replace my old switch with a smart switch?

[Polarizing]

8 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

 

 

 

Just to be sure, there was a reason there are two tubes coming down from the ceiling.. ????

the reason was, the previous owner was not a fan of breaking into walls, so he or his sparky pulled it from somewhere and built builtin furniture around it. When I moved in, i removed the builtin furniture and jammed that tube in the wall without a detailed plan of how I am going to finish it. As time progresses, my plans became more clear haha

[Metropolitian]

19 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

Thanks for trying to understand my abstract artwork! this kind of answer was exactly what i was looking for!

-1 There should be at least 2 hot wires right? 1 for each of the lights? In which hole should I put it then? I never wired lighting before and do not fully understand that point.

-2. yes giving up the holes beneath
-3 Everything is on the same breaker, does this mean I can replace my old switch with a smart switch?

1. gimme a sec, will draw it for you.

3. location and function depends on the smart switch, they definitely need both live and neutral for the electronics to work.

[Metropolitian]

44 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

There should be at least 2 hot wires right? 1 for each of the lights? In which hole should I put it then? I never wired lighting before and do not fully understand that point.

[Polarizing]

18 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I will try it out soooooooon :D:D

[Crossy]

Ignoring the no-earth and outlet polarity issues for now do the switches work as it is now?

 

If so mark the switch wires individually, take a photo. Disconnect the switch wires and pull them up the tubes. Re mark the wires before you shorten them. Cut and strip and put the wires back in the same holes on the switches.

 

How are you going to get the back box into the wall, cut it to go around the conduit?

 

EDIT Does one of the switches control the outlet? If so you're going to need a longer link wire, but the principle remains unchanged.

[Polarizing]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

Ignoring the no-earth and outlet polarity issues for now do the switches work as it is now?

 

If so mark the switch wires individually, take a photo. Disconnect the switch wires and pull them up the tubes. Re mark the wires before you shorten them. Cut and strip and put the wires back in the same holes on the switches.

 

How are you going to get the back box into the wall, cut it to go around the conduit?

 

EDIT Does one of the switches control the outlet? If so you're going to need a longer link wire, but the principle remains unchanged.

Well actually I was trying to cross some crossy rules regarding backboxes, but you detected, haha. I planned to put the switches on the left side of the niche/ledge, where I created a 8 shape out of those wood beams and just screw it on there. Having a backbox there would limit me so much since I plan to jam in a led adaptor too. Too dangerous? Let me know.

Everything works it is now. The method you mentioned is ofcourse the foolproof one, but it does not solve the no ground issue. Or, would you only steal the ground. Is there anything negative about the method metropolian and I discussed?

 

[Crossy]

17 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

Everything works it is now. The method you mentioned is ofcourse the foolproof one, but it does not solve the no ground issue. Or, would you only steal the ground. Is there anything negative about the method metropolian and I discussed?

 

Nothing at all wrong with the metro-method, it should actually be wired like that now ????

 

If you can find a ground to hook up to you can do that too, where does that green wire in the tubes go (is it even ground)?

 

[Polarizing]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Nothing at all wrong with the metro-method, it should actually be wired like that now ????

 

If you can find a ground to hook up to you can do that too, where does that green wire in the tubes go (is it even ground)?

 

the collored wire tubes are going to the right circle, remember the "neutral ground reversed" thread? Yeah that outlet

[Polarizing]

@Crossy @Metropolitian
Some of the cables in the tube with white cables are indeed 1.5, very sharp of you.
What should I do with it? I guess to replace them would be too much of a hassle...
From my understanding, if a cable is thinner, there can go less amp through there? 

I decided it might be a better idea to put the led adaptor not with the outlet and switch as it would be too cramped and I want to save space to leave the niche/ledge as wide as possible. So I want to install led strips under my bed and in the back of the niche, which will be connected with one of the switches.
I am not familiar with led strips wiring, how many wires and what kind should I leave in the white wire tube for this to work? This involves soldering right? As it will go from switch -> long wire to adaptor under the bed-> led strips-> wire to the niche-> led strips

Is this understandable? if not I will take more effort into drawing it out. Thankss

[Crossy]

1.5 should be on no more than a 16A breaker, but there's no issue with running an outlet that's not powering your welder or the like.

 

For your LEDs I would provide an outlet into which you can plug the adaptor (put the outlet on a switch if you wish). Plenty of kits around that don't need soldering / wiring skills.

 

Beware, lighting under the bed will disturb the monster and he may come out at night and attack!!

 

[Polarizing]

38 minutes ago, Crossy said:

1.5 should be on no more than a 16A breaker, but there's no issue with running an outlet that's not powering your welder or the like.

 

For your LEDs I would provide an outlet into which you can plug the adaptor (put the outlet on a switch if you wish). Plenty of kits around that don't need soldering / wiring skills.

 

Beware, lighting under the bed will disturb the monster and he may come out at night and attack!!

 

so putting it on the same switch is not possible? I dont want to have so many switches

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

so putting it on the same switch is not possible? I dont want to have so many switches

 

If you want it all on the same breaker you need a breaker of 16A or less to be safe.

 

What size is the breaker now?

 

EDIT Looking at the photos in your other thread is seems it's already 16A, so you're good to go as is.

 

EDIT 2 Mis-read. When you say "switch" you mean the light switch? Nothing to stop you powering the outlet for your LEDs from the lighting circuit. You have to connect the controller somehow and a plug/socket is easy, cheap and safe.

 

[Metropolitian]

9 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

EDIT Does one of the switches control the outlet? If so you're going to need a longer link wire, but the principle remains unchanged.

I think he is going to give up the two outlets below. Everything will be located at one point.

He need a 4x4 or two 2x1 electrical junction box for in the wall where the two pipes are.

 

But now I have read about a 8 styled hole (I assume two round holes drilled near each other? ' ''I created a 8 shape out of those wood beams'' ) .

I don't see it in the picture but what are you going to do with the alclove , @Polarizing?

If it wouldn't be used, then you can use that space to mount a junction box there.

Or where is the 8 shaped hole in the wood beam?

 

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

1.5 should be on no more than a 16A breaker, but there's no issue with running an outlet that's not powering your welder or the like.

Looks pretty much that these 1.5mm wire are the switching wires.

 

1 hour ago, Polarizing said:

@Crossy @Metropolitian
Some of the cables in the tube with white cables are indeed 1.5, very sharp of you.
What should I do with it? I guess to replace them would be too much of a hassle...
From my understanding, if a cable is thinner, there can go less amp through there? 

For feeding light from a light switch, 1.5 is perfect.

In my original country for simple light points 1mm is used, and 1.5 for 16 amp sockets and the 2.5 from the CU to the central junction boxes (star installation, no rings)

 

So, no need to change the wires on the size requirement.

 

But mark them. Do you have colored tape? If not, then marker pens will do.

You can write note on the wall , if you going to plasterboard the wall, so that in the future rebuilders will know the wiring situation

 

1 hour ago, Polarizing said:

I decided it might be a better idea to put the led adaptor not with the outlet and switch as it would be too cramped and I want to save space to leave the niche/ledge as wide as possible. So I want to install led strips under my bed and in the back of the niche, which will be connected with one of the switches.
I am not familiar with led strips wiring, how many wires and what kind should I leave in the white wire tube for this to work? This involves soldering right? As it will go from switch -> long wire to adaptor under the bed-> led strips-> wire to the niche-> led strips

 

Will the bed be positioned at that location? Consider keeping one of the outlets below, you can switch that outlet by adding one more switch with the other two (you can have 3 in a row).

And the setup for the led strip at that outlet below or the bed.

Many led strips are powered by a adapter, but there do exist led strips working on 220v.  Either way it is useful to have a power outlet near where you will mount the led strip.

Colored ledstrips has 4 or 5 (with warm white included) wires. DC distance over wire is best kept short.

 

[Metropolitian]

Or were you planning to widen the alclove and accidentally drilled in the electrical tubes (right that one with the colored wiring) ? ????