Norway says Russia behind cyber attack against its parliament

[Morch]

14 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Well! Some of these countries are moaning and groaning, wimping and whining. They should beef up their security, instead of constantly griping.

 

A few year ago Nth Korea was the bad boy, then China and now Russia; again.

 

What does beefing up cyber security got to do with protesting Russia's hacking efforts? One does not exclude the other.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Dear me. Just as Apple was rolling out its new 5G phone too.

 

Everyone knows the three main suspects in this cyber stuff; and it ain't Russia, China or Nth Korea.

 

At the present time the 'west' is suffering on many fronts. Is this just another thing to get concerned about? To instill a little more fear into the people. Or the eternal cyber 'red herring'. Your turn next Sweden; or Oz.

 

Dear me. Another 'everyone knows' followed by an unclear, unsupported nonsense comment. And as an extra, yet another vague claim about the 'west' 'suffering on many fronts'. Just what fronts, and how they might relate to the topic at hand is not explained. Guess it's another one of them 'everyone knows' things.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, NordicDemon said:

It isn't really that uncommon for Russia to conduct so-called cyber attacks against Norwegian government facilities and private entities. This is something that's been going on for decades in one form or another. It should also be mentioned that these activities have been gradually declining over the last few years. Stories about such "attacks" usually aren't newsworthy because most intrusion attempts are detected and repelled, and the whole dynamic is rather well-known and not that interesting in the context of the Norwegian news media.

 

Add to that, Norway tries to maintain a cordial relationship with Russia and therefore the government prefer to avoid criticizing Russia for what it considers to be lesser infractions. Basically, Norway's relationship with Russia is similar to Norway's relationship with China, in that China conducts widespread espionage against Norwegian companies and interests in Norway and abroad, but the Norwegian government is very reluctant to criticize China. All of this means that the issues above, as far as Russia and China are concerned, seldom receive major news coverage. 

What's interesting in this news story is that Norwegian government actually went to the press in order to shed light on the Russian activities. That rarely happens and when it does, it's usually because the Norwegian government tries to appear assertive and wishes to gain political favor either among the Norwegian people or allied countries. In this case, probably both because there is an election in Norway next year, as well as an attempt to show solidarity with Germany and the EU in their recent increase of political pressure on Russia. 

 

And here's another possibility, that the current Russian infraction went beyond the unofficially acceptable level.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sure. Because Russia is the capital of IT intelligence and no other country spies, hacks or tries to influence things in it's favor. 

 

Sure, because Russia is not a major power when it comes to cyber warfare, and the topic is about other countries. Oh wait...

 

Work on your deflections.

[Morch]

16 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Conclusive evidence and concrete proof then, right?  After all the Pedro and the lobo stuff since 2016 I am naturally suspicious of any seemingly farfetched Russia accusations without evidence. Modern Russia is not an enemy of the west, also not a large economy, and are not enjoying good economic times. That the state would invest large sums to sponsor cyber attacks in an ally(for what possible benefit?), and no smoking gun shown, I will remain sceptical. 

 Just my opinion.

 

What exactly in the OP do you find 'farfetched'?

While it's nice that you do not see Russia as an enemy of the West, this point of view is not generally shared by most relevant Western intelligence services. As for an 'ally' - I kinda doubt that would be quite how the relations between the countries are defined.

 

[candide]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What exactly in the OP do you find 'farfetched'?

While it's nice that you do not see Russia as an enemy of the West, this point of view is not generally shared by most relevant Western intelligence services. As for an 'ally' - I kinda doubt that would be quite how the relations between the countries are defined.

 

We all know the true motivation behind such posts by Trump supporters. Trumpers are so eager to support Trump's claim that it was just a Russian hoax in the U.S., that they feel it's their duty to negate any Russian interference or crime anywhere else in the world. Same as in the Nalvany thread.

[heybruce]

20 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Conclusive evidence and concrete proof then, right?  After all the Pedro and the lobo stuff since 2016 I am naturally suspicious of any seemingly farfetched Russia accusations without evidence. Modern Russia is not an enemy of the west, also not a large economy, and are not enjoying good economic times. That the state would invest large sums to sponsor cyber attacks in an ally(for what possible benefit?), and no smoking gun shown, I will remain sceptical. 

 Just my opinion.

The appeal of cyber attacks is that they are very cheap, so a country that is struggling with it's own economic incompetence can still destabilize perceived enemies on a budget.  It's also very difficult to produce an easy to understand smoking gun.

 

It's in Putin's interest to make prosperous democratic countries look unstable and incompetently led so Russia doesn't look so bad in comparison. 

 

Modern Russia is an enemy to many of its neighbors and any allies of those neighbors.

 

Why are Trump supporters consistently defending Russia?

 

 

[heybruce]

12 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Any proof? Nah, just the usual bs politically motivated accusations as usual.

Seriously?  You aren't aware that proof of Russian election interference with the intent of electing Trump is overwhelming?  Or that Russia conducts similar operations in Europe?

 

"The Senate intelligence committee concluded that the Kremlin launched an aggressive effort to meddle in the 2016 presidential contest on behalf of Donald Trump as the Republican-led panel on Tuesday released its fifth and final report in its investigation into election interference."   https://www.fox44news.com/news/national-world-news/final-senate-report-on-russian-election-interference-released/

 

"The Senate Intelligence Committee released Tuesday the most comprehensive and meticulous examination to date explaining how Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election and the Trump campaign welcomed the foreign adversary's help, revealing new information about contacts between Russian officials and associates of President Donald Trump during and after the campaign."

"In several key ways, the committee's counterintelligence investigation goes beyond the findings of former special counsel Robert Mueller released last year, as the Republican-led Senate panel was not limited by questions of criminality that drove the special counsel probe."   https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/politics/senate-intelligence-report-russia-election-interference-efforts/index.html

 

European democracies have been coping with foreign interference for longer than the United States, and the primary threat to European democracies comes from Russia. Following consolidation of his power within Russia in the early 2000s, President Vladimir Putin turned his attention to the former states of the Soviet Union and the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe. His goal was to peel those countries away from Western-style democracy and return them to Russia’s coercive sphere of influence.   https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2019/07/31/combating-disinformation-and-foreign-interference-in-democracies-lessons-from-europe/

[owl sees all]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Dear me. Another 'everyone knows' followed by an unclear, unsupported nonsense comment. And as an extra, yet another vague claim about the 'west' 'suffering on many fronts'. Just what fronts, and how they might relate to the topic at hand is not explained. Guess it's another one of them 'everyone knows' things.

You must be the only one who doesn't know who is pulling the strings in this Morch. The 'vague fronts' for the moment are; economies, civil unrest and C-19 etc.

 

And heybruce ^^^ "Seriously?  You aren't aware that proof of Russian election interference with the intent of electing Trump is overwhelming?  Or that Russia conducts similar operations in Europe?"

 

With a friend like the US; a country doesn't need many enemies.

 

Norway has played this hand badly IMO.

 

The players jerking the marionette world are known to all.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by owl sees all

[Tagged]

4 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Norway has played this hand badly IMO.

 

You must be the only one who doesn't know who is pulling the strings in this Morch.

 

The 'vague fronts' for the moment are; economies, civil unrest and C-19 etc. Not just the west though.

 

The players jerking the marionette world are known to all.

 

Can't say more on this unfortunately. Can't risk another holiday.

How did the play this badly? This is just part of the bigger chess game, where we just contribute to the heat against russia, of benificial reasons. Russia have gas they want to sell to germany, norway also have gas they want to sell to germany. Russia provoke the west, the west provoke Russia. Nothing new going on. Russia cross the norwegian border every week with their fighter jet planes, and we chase them off. Never hear Norwegian jet planes crossing the border thow, because we know they will shoot us down, we dont. Thats the difference between the west policy and russia. 

[owl sees all]

1 minute ago, Tagged said:

How did the play this badly? This is just part of the bigger chess game, where we just contribute to the heat against russia, of benificial reasons. Russia have gas they want to sell to germany, norway also have gas they want to sell to germany. Russia provoke the west, the west provoke Russia. Nothing new going on. Russia cross the norwegian border every week with their fighter jet planes, and we chase them off. Never hear Norwegian jet planes crossing the border thow, because we know they will shoot us down, we dont. Thats the difference between the west policy and russia. 

Norway should have kept quiet, instead of bleating like a stuffed pig. There are diplomatic ways this can be sorted, without publicly moaning.

 

And remind me; what ally was listening-in to Germany's secrets for years.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, owl sees all said:

You must be the only one who doesn't know who is pulling the strings in this Morch. The 'vague fronts' for the moment are; economies, civil unrest and C-19 etc.

 

And heybruce ^^^ "Seriously?  You aren't aware that proof of Russian election interference with the intent of electing Trump is overwhelming?  Or that Russia conducts similar operations in Europe?"

 

With a friend like the US; a country doesn't need many enemies.

 

Norway has played this hand badly IMO.

 

The players jerking the marionette world are known to all.

 

 

So just more nonsense and deflection out of you. Expected. Do tell who is 'pulling the strings', and try to make it sounds like something that's not a conspiracy theory. Unless you missed it, Russia is bogged down with at least two of the three 'fronts' mentioned, many other countries, not Western, face issues on all. You trying to make these Western issues is unconvincing.

 

The rest of your post doesn't even try to address points made.

[heybruce]

30 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So just more nonsense and deflection out of you. Expected. Do tell who is 'pulling the strings', and try to make it sounds like something that's not a conspiracy theory. Unless you missed it, Russia is bogged down with at least two of the three 'fronts' mentioned, many other countries, not Western, face issues on all. You trying to make these Western issues is unconvincing.

 

The rest of your post doesn't even try to address points made.

Minor quibble, but I think it is accurate to say that on the three fronts "owl sees all" imagines are somehow pulling strings-- economies, civil unrest and C-19--Russia is bogged down on all three.

[Phoenix Rising]

On 10/14/2020 at 6:08 AM, TopDeadSenter said:

Conclusive evidence and concrete proof then, right?  After all the Pedro and the lobo stuff since 2016 I am naturally suspicious of any seemingly farfetched Russia accusations without evidence. Modern Russia is not an enemy of the west, also not a large economy, and are not enjoying good economic times. That the state would invest large sums to sponsor cyber attacks in an ally(for what possible benefit?), and no smoking gun shown, I will remain sceptical. 

 Just my opinion.

And I'm not surprised that you're sceptical, not surprised at all. As a base trump supporter you're more or less duty bound to defend Putin and Russia.

 

"After all the Pedro and the lobo stuff since 2016 I am naturally suspicious of any seemingly farfetched Russia accusations...."

Far fetched??? LOL, you would say that, wouldn't you.

 

"Modern Russia is not an enemy of the west....."

Modern Russia?? They're ruled by a killer despot who murders journalists and activists on a regular basis. Russia under Putin is indeed an enemy of the West. 

 

"That the state would invest large sums to sponsor cyber attacks....."

What "large sums" are you talking about?? Getting a few whiz kids together and giving them top-notch computers probably costs less than one main battle tank!

 

"...to sponsor cyber attacks in an ally...."

Huh?? Are you claiming that Norway, a NATO member, is an ally of Russia??

 

 

So much drivel and un-thruths in one short posts - amazing!

 

[Phoenix Rising]

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

You must be the only one who doesn't know who is pulling the strings in this Morch. The 'vague fronts' for the moment are; economies, civil unrest and C-19 etc.

 

And heybruce ^^^ "Seriously?  You aren't aware that proof of Russian election interference with the intent of electing Trump is overwhelming?  Or that Russia conducts similar operations in Europe?"

 

With a friend like the US; a country doesn't need many enemies.

 

Norway has played this hand badly IMO.

 

The players jerking the marionette world are known to all.

 

I'm sick and tired of you trolls that hijack threads just so you can hint to "THE LARGE CONSPIRACY THAT'S BEHIND IT ALL AND ONLY YOU AND A FEW OTHERS CAN SEE THROUH".

State clearly and concisely what you believe to be true or slink back under your bridge!

[owl sees all]

18 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

I'm sick and tired of you trolls that hijack threads just so you can hint to "THE LARGE CONSPIRACY THAT'S BEHIND IT ALL AND ONLY YOU AND A FEW OTHERS CAN SEE THROUH".

State clearly and concisely what you believe to be true or slink back under your bridge!

Sick and tired eh! Tough life ain't it!

 

You want me to spell it out? I don't believe Norway's claims. Or the US's claims. Or the UK's claims.

 

Trolls! The most common word used when someone doesn't see it your way.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Sick and tired eh! Tough life ain't it!

 

You want me to spell it out? I don't believe Norway's claims. Or the US's claims. Or the UK's claims.

 

Trolls! The most common word used when someone doesn't see it your way.

 

Only thing is that you cannot seem to support your beliefs with anything much other than vague insinuations.

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Sick and tired eh! Tough life ain't it!

 

You want me to spell it out? I don't believe Norway's claims. Or the US's claims. Or the UK's claims.

 

Trolls! The most common word used when someone doesn't see it your way.

How can you rationally expect others to see it your way if you don't divulge the information you base your allegations on?

[owl sees all]

48 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How can you rationally expect others to see it your way if you don't divulge the information you base your allegations on?

You can believe the the stuff that is constantly travelling in our direction, usually to convince us that 'action' is appropriate, and often forthcoming. I want to see a facts (and not doctored ones) before I believe any government rhetoric.

 

This lady broke this news so that 'we' can be in the know; just like the security agencies.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

You can believe the the stuff that is constantly travelling in our direction, usually to convince us that 'action' is appropriate, and often forthcoming. I want to see a facts (and not doctored ones) before I believe any government rhetoric.

 

This lady broke this news so that 'we' can be in the know; just like the security agencies.

 

You do not offer facts, you allege things without supporting them. Yet somehow expecting other to play along with your nonsense.

[Tagged]

And now official. Im sure the backroom glowing after hectic meetings the last few days. 

 

"

Norway follows EU on Russia sanctions over Navalny poisoning

The European Union on Wednesday agreed to sanction six individuals in Russia and one organization over the poisoning of Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny. All six are members of Putin's inner circle"

 

 

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/democracy-and-media/2020/10/norway-follows-eu-russia-sanctions-over-navalny-poisoning

Edited October 15, 2020 by Tagged

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

Sick and tired eh! Tough life ain't it!

 

You want me to spell it out? I don't believe Norway's claims. Or the US's claims. Or the UK's claims.

 

Trolls! The most common word used when someone doesn't see it your way.

So who do you believe?

[dimitriv]

5 hours ago, Tagged said:

Norway follows EU on Russia sanctions over Navalny poisoning

The European Union on Wednesday agreed to sanction six individuals in Russia and one organization over the poisoning of Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny. All six are members of Putin's inner circle"

 

 

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/democracy-and-media/2020/10/norway-follows-eu-russia-sanctions-over-navalny-poisoning

 

Again sanctions that will not change anything.

 

 

[Tagged]

6 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

 

Again sanctions that will not change anything.

 

 

It will mean something when the pipeline deal with germany being terminated. But as you say, Russia continue to be russia, and will continue to be playing World Chess on high level

[owl sees all]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

How can you rationally expect others to see it your way if you don't divulge the information you base your allegations on?

I'm not asking anyone to see anything anyway. But I like to see at least a smidge of evidence before I think there could be some truth in the matter.

 

Governments have always told lies. I was on a march in London to protest against the Iraq war. Lot of good that did; the government's case was so, so compelling.

 

There is, IMO. something more behind this Norway press release than meets the eye. I have my own ideas, but couldn't voice them here. But, perhaps the gas pipeline is a clue. We will have to wait and see what materialises.

Edited October 15, 2020 by owl sees all

[Meat Pie 47]

On 10/14/2020 at 8:21 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not in the least surprised by any of that.

 

The list of accusations against Russia from security agencies and governments grows but you come rushing to Russia’s defense.

Well he is a Trumper they all seem to like the commos

[dimitriv]

14 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

But I like to see at least a smidge of evidence before I think there could be some truth in the matter.

 

I am 100% sure that when you see evidence it will still not be enough for you. You have made up your mind, it's all a conspiracy.

 

The evidence of Russia misbehaving everywhere is so overwhelming. From shooting down airplanes with people going on holiday, illegally occupying parts of other countries while at the same time denying it, interfering with elections, hacking attempts etc. But it's all a big conspiracy. It's all not true. 

 

 

[gearbox]

50 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I'm not asking anyone to see anything anyway. But I like to see at least a smidge of evidence before I think there could be some truth in the matter.

 

Governments have always told lies. I was on a march in London to protest against the Iraq war. Lot of good that did; the government's case was so, so compelling.

 

There is, IMO. something more behind this Norway press release than meets the eye. I have my own ideas, but couldn't voice them here. But, perhaps the gas pipeline is a clue. We will have to wait and see what materialises.

You are asking for evidence? You won't get much.

 

I've read the technical report of the British NCSC in regards to the alleged Russian and Chinese coronavirus research hacking. Fiction at its best.

 

Do the Russians and Chinese (and other) try to hack, and hack successfully? Most likely. Could it be proven? Very, very unlikely.  The success rate to prosecute sophisticated hackers is very very low. It involves years of work on a specific case, and usually requires multiple warrants in different jurisdictions. That takes a lot of time, and often when the warrant is given, the evidence has been wiped long time ago.

 

Now many governments treat now as "evidence" is "patterns".  I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that patterns are enough to prove a defendant guilty.  I can have a "pattern",  then 100 people copy my pattern, am I liable for all of them? What if I change all the time my patterns.

 

Very complex topic, which is increasingly used for political goals and brainwashing.

 

[Felt 35]

On 10/14/2020 at 8:22 AM, NordicDemon said:

 

 

Or...history want to be forgotten of political reason from they behind todays steering helm. Russia is dangerous, we constantly hear in the news. Definitely not without reason. Nevertheless, there seems to be a widespread attitude in northern Norway, Finnmark, especially in the east, that the Russians are nothing to be afraid of. If so, why is it so?

Finnmark, autumn 1944. The Germans are chased out, but it costs. Along the way, they destroy as much infrastructure as possible. Finnmark is burning. The population is forcibly evacuated, but many oppose the German order and hide in primitive old mining corridors. On the heels of the Germans come the liberators. It's not the United States. Army, Royal Air Force or Foreign Legion.

Nor is it the Norwegian army, the small one that exists of it, that are training far outside the war zone.

The heroes are not named Sam and Jack. Their names are Vladimir and Piotr. It is the Soviet Red Army that, with the justice of the liberators, rolls across the Norwegian border. For years, they have fought against the Germans just a few solid stone's throw from Kirkenes. The Litzsa front was for a long time the worst front part to be on. Here they fought. Nazis against communists. Until the Russians finally came on the offensive, the front of the Litzsa River was the highest number of losses.

There are still fallen soldiers in this area. The Litza monument is located here. By the road between Storskog and Murmansk. Rarely do you come here without fresh flowers at the mighty monument. This means something. A lot for Russians, and for Norwegian Finnmarkers. How often have you heard of this  I do not think the Litza front was mentioned in one word throughout history. The Finnmarkers know this. They have felt the neglect of their own, both on body and soul.

[dimitriv]

21 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

Until the Russians finally came on the offensive

 

There is also another part of history which is neglected by many. WW2 was started by Nazi Germany and Russia together. In the Molotov-Ribbentroppact the criminals divided Europe in 2 parts, one part for Germany, the other part of Europe would be occupied by Russia. In September 1939 WW2 started when Germany and Russia attacked Poland. Unfortunately for Russia Germany was not a very reliable partner to commit crimes with. Later Germany attacked Russia too.

 

Russia was never a liberator, they fought for revenge. 

 

Norway and Finland must be happy that the Russians left. Many countries were not so lucky.  Many countries in Eastern Europe are still recovering from decades of Russian rule, exploitation and looting.