Country of Tax Residency

[sirocco]

Hello,

I don't know how it works in England, but if you pay taxes, no matter how small in your country, you must have a No on your return or receipt.
It doesn't matter if you are not retired or have left England for a long time.
A few years ago, an organization (I don't remember which one) asked me for the place of my tax residence.
As I had no form to complete, I informed my embassy.
I had to give my tax number, my address in Thailand, and on return, I received a PDF from the embassy which specified that my tax residence was my country that I had left for many years .
In June, the bank in my country sent me a tax residency form.
I have completed with the tax number of my country.
And everything was OK.

[4MyEgo]

14 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

As said, if u live here over 180 days u are thai tax resident. Tax residency does not mean you need to pay taxes here. If you have no taxable income you don't pay taxes.

Thank you ????

 

[4MyEgo]

14 hours ago, jojothai said:

- Should you transfer the income here from Australia after the tax year in which it is earned it is not considered taxable in Thailand.

As previously mentioned, I have had professional advice, spoken to the Australian Taxation Department and done my own research before moving here, all the advice and research I carried out before I retire here 5 years ago suggests that the way I have structured my retirement investments I do not pay tax in Australia or Thailand.

 

I don't need to research Thai tax laws regarding double treaties, that is why I employ an accountant every year and if I can't trust the Australian Taxation Department to also provide me with the correct advice then I would be lost, that said, I did a few years back sell a share that was not fully franked and I had to pay the tax on it when I lodged my tax return, noting that my accountant broke the tax down to 20% Australian Government and Thai Government 15%, however as I said, as ALL of my shares are fully franked (tax taken out) and paid to the Australian Government when the dividend is received by me, I pay no tax, so Thailand receives nil as the Australian Government provides this incentive for foreign investors, now if they didn't do this and one had to pay tax in Thailand after the company paying the share has already paid the tax in Australia to the Australian taxation department, well that would be double dipping and wouldn't be feasible to invest in the share market in Oz, that said, it's a different ball game when you buy and sell share that are not franked, i.e. tax is payable when you sell the share and has to be disclosed in your tax returns.

 

I keep all of my assets, shares and money in banks in Australia and only transfer one amount here per year to cover my living expenses which includes the amount required to be show for my marriage extension, so all I do is withdraw a certain amount every month and so far all works well, and repeat it annually. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by 4MyEgo

[Guderian]

20 hours ago, YorkshireTyke said:

Fundsmith have replied that they aren't satisfied with my answer

Why not just send them a padded-out version of your OP explaining your situation, and tell them to decide for themselves since you don't pay tax in either country.

[Baerboxer]

Some comments I hope might be useful, based on my experiences. 

 

1. Ignore advice from anyone whose not British. Other countries tax laws, rules and processes are irrelevant and may be very different from the UK's.

2. Getting a Thai Tax ID is very easy. Go to the local tax office, passport, the usual copies, wifey or g/f or details of abode and they will issue you with one. You'll get a tax return to complete which they'll help you complete in a few minutes (you might well get a refund of bank deducted tax on your investment interest).

3. Get a UK tax accountant. Surprisingly inexpensive but extremely useful. They can file your UK tax return and give you advice to make sure you stay within the right rules and guidelines. There are plenty available - if you want my recommendation PM me. This will be invaluable to you as your company and then state pensions come into play.

 

You clearly meet the criteria for being UK non-resident for tax purposes. The FA who told you otherwise was either wrong or (more likely) doing what was easy for himself. 

 

Although non resident you will be liable for tax on amounts arising in the UK, subject to personal allowances. The HMRC on-line system is very good, and if you haven't, you should also register on that. You can input information that will enable them to give you correct tax codes and estimates etc. 

 

Hope my comments helpful. Cheers.

[Rawairat]

You have really started up all the keyboard warriors, back to your original question. I had a similar issue from my Australian investments and tried to get a tax number from the local revenue office, they sent me to my bank and the bank sent me back to the revenue office. In the meantime I was informed by a friend that Thais use their Thai ID card number as a tax ID so you could use the pink foreigners card number,(also known as a refugee card?) which I applied for after getting a yellow house book. I have used that for my Australian investments for several years, and so far no one has questioned it, maybe good for the UK investment companies? 

I was also told by a Hong Kong based investor that more and more countries are insisting on this, comes from the USA chasing it's citizens trying to avoid tax and other countries through tax agreements?  

 

cheers 

[jojothai]

43 minutes ago, Guderian said:

Why not just send them a padded-out version of your OP explaining your situation, and tell them to decide for themselves since you don't pay tax in either country.

Unfortunately that is not acceptable under the CRS regulations and the FA has to get a declaration of tax residence / TIN.
Saying you do not pay tax in either coutry is not within the regulations , you have to be tax resident somewhere whether you pay tax or not. The information is required under the CRS regulations.

People wll end up having to get a TIN whether they pay tax or not.

Three big Uk banks / financial institutions warned me they may have to freeze the account if i do not provide the information required for compliance with the CRS.
For 3 years this has started to become a new reality and people need to figure it out.
Thailand has not implemented yet, but has confirmed it will do so. It will start soon when the banks here issue requests for the CRS declarations, but there again TIT. With Uk financial institiutions I can tell you they were very relaxed about things for over a year before they forced people to take it seriously.

[Max69xl]

21 hours ago, YorkshireTyke said:

I will be paying tax when I claim my company pension within the next 5 years and state pension in 7 years (fingers crossed).

 

And definitely not in the millions !

Your question about the Tax Identification Number is easy to answer.

 

20 hours ago, YorkshireTyke said:

Thanks Thomas,

 

I have Googled where my tax office is and not far from me, I will go tomorrow or Friday and try my luck.

 

Thanks all for your replies.

One problem at the Revenue office to get the Tax Identification Number aka TIN, could be the language barrier. If possible bring your wife/gf. I have heard of offices where they can't speak a word in english. Here's a useful link about the TIN and how to get it.

 

https://www.globalfromasia.com/thailand-tax-id/

[jojothai]

10 minutes ago, Rawairat said:

I was also told by a Hong Kong based investor that more and more countries are insisting on this, comes from the USA chasing it's citizens trying to avoid tax and other countries through tax agreements?  

 

cheers 

FYI it's not the USA, it is the CRS regulations that are agreed globally and the majority of countries have signed up to it.

[userabcd]

27 minutes ago, Rawairat said:

You have really started up all the keyboard warriors, back to your original question. I had a similar issue from my Australian investments and tried to get a tax number from the local revenue office, they sent me to my bank and the bank sent me back to the revenue office. In the meantime I was informed by a friend that Thais use their Thai ID card number as a tax ID so you could use the pink foreigners card number,(also known as a refugee card?) which I applied for after getting a yellow house book. I have used that for my Australian investments for several years, and so far no one has questioned it, maybe good for the UK investment companies? 

I was also told by a Hong Kong based investor that more and more countries are insisting on this, comes from the USA chasing it's citizens trying to avoid tax and other countries through tax agreements?  

 

cheers 

If you find old minutes of meetings between world leaders (g20 etc...) you will find top of their agenda was to agree to unify and simply openly sharing financial information worldwide, they csme up with CRS.

 

It may have started with the US but after the 2008 financial crisis the rest of the oecd started agressively getting all countries in the world to report and share financial information. Most countries are onboard and the few countries remaining are being pursuaded to join CRS through oecd govt financial banking sanction.

Edited October 15, 2020 by userabcd

[jojothai]

16 minutes ago, Rawairat said:

I was informed by a friend that Thais use their Thai ID card number as a tax ID so you could use the pink foreigners card number,(also known as a refugee card?) 

Many countries use the ID or passport number for Tax. But thats not what i get here in Thailand.

 

At present IMHO people can put whatever they like for the Thai TIN since it may not cause any issue.

Thailand has not yet implemented CRS so there will be no exchange of tax information until after that happens.

So there are likely to be at least a few years until the number may matter.
However, people are providing and signing a formal declaration and have an obligation to tell the truth.
The financial institution have a duty to verify the information, and can request evidence of the TIN (such as payslip, tax return)  as I already experienced in the last few years.

So the problem may not go away just by writing any number.

It depends on whether the institution / FA accept your declaration without question.
 

[sirocco]

In my country, for 2 or 3 years, it is automatic debit, at source, therefore on our payroll.
But we still make our statement.
On the other hand, expatriates have their own finance center and their own tax return sheet.

[jojothai]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

only transfer one amount here per year to cover my living expenses

In the information provided I have already offered you some tips on what i understand about the Thai tax situation.

You may have already set up things to your advantage if the single transfer is at the beginning of each Thai tax year, so that you can prove that it is from overseas income in the previous years. Then there should be no concern about any potential tax liability.

If so, very good. That is the way I am planning to do it when i transfer pension (although from UK/Channel Islands).

 

 

[JusticeGB]

Write to your existing UK tax office and tell them that you left the UK on xxx day to live in Thailand permanently then you will be registered as an overseas resident from that date. Most farangs living in Thailand don't bother to register with the Thai tax authorities. If you remit your pension from a previous year to Thailand it's not taxable income in Thailand. Under double tax agreements with the UK income taxed in the UK on amounts of less than £25,000 the tax paid is higher than the tax that would be paid in Thailand so no additional taxes would be payable if you registered as a tax payer in Thailand unless you were also working in Thailand. 

[YorkshireTyke]

Baer boxer - Great post, than you.

 

I also presumed I would pay tax on my UK pensions but the last post on page 2 of this thread made me doubt it and I was going to query it, but what you said is how I understand it. I have my tax free allowance first and taxed on the remainder which isn't excessive, I'm happy.

 

Fundsmith would not advise me on the issue.

 

Yes, the original FA was an arrogant little pr*ck but he talked a good game and I got my investments.

 

As I have said I will visit the tax office tomorrow, I have downloaded the form in Thai so trying to get someone to translate before I go so I can complete it in English.

 

Thanks everybody.

Edited October 15, 2020 by YorkshireTyke
spelling

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, jojothai said:

You may have already set up things to your advantage if the single transfer is at the beginning of each Thai tax year, so that you can prove that it is from overseas income in the previous years. Then there should be no concern about any potential tax liability.

I am not up to speed on anything to do with before or after the tax year, as I usually transfer the amount around October, but having said that, I have also transferred other amounts in April, May and September and as those amounts come out of my Australian Bank accounts from my savings, as far as I am concerned those transfers are from my savings accounts, nothing to do with my investments or monies earned from them ????

 

Appreciate your input but I am totally covered so to speak and the Thai's will not be getting on baht from my earnings from within Australia.....too easy when you cross your T's and dot your i's. 

[khunPer]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:55 AM, YorkshireTyke said:

Fundsmith have replied that they aren't satisfied with my answer. I presume after reading the Government guidelines the answer should be Thailand. If that's the case what is my Tax Identification Number ?

Yes, your country of tax-residence is Thailand, as you stay here 183 days, and more, a year.

 

That however doesn't mean you don't pay tax in UK – or orther places – as pensions from UK might be taxed in UK, and some other income as well. For more clear information you should read the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between UK and Thailand, you can find it here.

 

To apply for a personal tax-ID in Thailand can be little complicated, if having no income. In principle you are fully taxable in Thailand of all income – except in the DTA between home country, i.e. UK, and Thailand mentioned exceptions – however living in Thailand of savings is free of tax, whilst foreign income is taxable, but only if transferred into Thailand the same calendar year as earned, otherwise it's considered savings.

 

Your tax-ID number (TIN) will be the same as your Thai ID-number, if you have a Yellow House Book for aliens, and eventually a pink ID-card. If you have that, you might be able to get away with stating that number only; however if checked with Thai authorities, or other official tax-documentation is required, you will not get away with that easy method.

 

Obtaining a TIN might vary a bit from province to province, so I can only tell my personal experience – but read the link applied in an earlier post – anyway you need to visit the local Revenue Office, which is not the branch within the amphor where you pay tax, but the main office that register v.a.t. and issues proof of TIN. Without a Thai income you might be told that you don't need a TIN. You can try to use your interest paid in a Thai bank account as proof of income, or any other income that would be taxable in Thailand.

 

In my case I had both interest income and dividends from SET-stocks, but as tax had been withheld in both cases, the revenue office would not issue a tax ID certificate, as I didn't needed it when having no work income; I'm on retirement extension of stay and therefore not allowed to work. I went back with a print from my SET portfolio showing that I had sold some stocks with a profit. Someone more important than the front office assistant decided to let my apply for a Tax-ID; luckily she did not know that capital gain from SET stocks is tax free, neither did I by that time. Anyway a week later I could come back and have a small matrix-printed slip with my House Book-number as proof of Tax-ID...

 

Hope this helps you...????

[Jesse123]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

Some comments I hope might be useful, based on my experiences. 

 

1. Ignore advice from anyone whose not British. Other countries tax laws, rules and processes are irrelevant and may be very different from the UK's.

2. Getting a Thai Tax ID is very easy. Go to the local tax office, passport, the usual copies, wifey or g/f or details of abode and they will issue you with one. You'll get a tax return to complete which they'll help you complete in a few minutes (you might well get a refund of bank deducted tax on your investment interest).

3. Get a UK tax accountant. Surprisingly inexpensive but extremely useful. They can file your UK tax return and give you advice to make sure you stay within the right rules and guidelines. There are plenty available - if you want my recommendation PM me. This will be invaluable to you as your company and then state pensions come into play.

 

You clearly meet the criteria for being UK non-resident for tax purposes. The FA who told you otherwise was either wrong or (more likely) doing what was easy for himself. 

 

Although non resident you will be liable for tax on amounts arising in the UK, subject to personal allowances. The HMRC on-line system is very good, and if you haven't, you should also register on that. You can input information that will enable them to give you correct tax codes and estimates etc. 

 

Hope my comments helpful. Cheers.

Just be aware that your UK OAP will be frozen. It is good advice to get a UK tax accountant to advise you. 

[partington]

On 10/14/2020 at 11:48 AM, 4MyEgo said:

I haven't seen or read Thailand's tax laws, however as my income is derived from Australian, I cannot see how Thailand would be entitled to me paying any tax when I don't pay any tax in Australia, i.e. the tax is taken out by the company paying the share dividend to me with the tax going to the Australian Government, I only collect the tax free return, so there is the loophole in that, if it is one.

 

As mention in the above post, I have had enough professional advice and have done my own research on this before I left and set myself up to move here, that said, it works well for me and until my accountant or the Australian Government advises me to pay tax to the Thai Government, then I will continue on my merry way earning my tax free income ????

 

 

You don't get my point. I was talking about tax residency, not any obligation to pay tax. They are two completely different issues.

 

You can officially be a tax resident of a country and yet not owe them any tax for that year, or multiple years, or indefinitely!

Edited October 15, 2020 by partington

[4MyEgo]

13 minutes ago, partington said:

You don't get my point. I was talking about tax residency, not any obligation to pay tax. They are two completely different issues.

 

You can officially be a tax resident of a country and yet not owe them any tax for that year, or multiple years, or indefinitely!

I did get your point, but also stated my personal circumstances, i.e. as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, I don't pay tax, now if being a non resident of Australia for tax purposes makes me a tax resident in Thailand, I still don't pay tax and that is all that needs to be said, in my situation ????

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by 4MyEgo

[YT3k72Em]

19 hours ago, khunPer said:

Your tax-ID number (TIN) will be the same as your Thai ID-number, if you have a Yellow House Book for aliens, and eventually a pink ID-card.

It wont necessarily be the same number, depending on what you present to prove address.

If you have a work permit you will be issued a tax number and nobody will ask to see a yellow book.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, YT3k72Em said:

It wont necessarily be the same number, depending on what you present to prove address.

If you have a work permit you will be issued a tax number and nobody will ask to see a yellow book.

OP don't have a work permit, but might have a Yellow House Book.

You don't need to be registered in a House Book to obtain a TIN – lots of folks having work permit rent their home – but if you get a TIN for a work permit, and later is registered in a Yellow House Book, wouldn't that number then be the same?

Edited October 16, 2020 by khunPer

[YorkshireTyke]

Update : Completed the form with a Thai friend this afternoon and went to the tax office which fortunately was very quiet.

The lady who gave me the form yesterday called me to her desk before my number came up which was a good sign. However, she didn't really now what to do, asked me why I needed it etc.

 

She took my passport, blue book and photocopies and took them to another lady.

 

Both ladies then asked questions and decided I need a residence letter from immigration, the one you need to buy a vehicle or get driving licence. I showed them the address slip in my passport from and stamped by immigration but they weren't having it and pretty much dismissed me.

 

It's a bit late in the afternoon now to trek to immigration so I will go early next week. I don't know about you guys but Hua Hin immigration charge 500 Baht for that letter.

 

To be continued.

[partington]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:27 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I did get your point, but also stated my personal circumstances, i.e. as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, I don't pay tax, now if being a non resident of Australia for tax purposes makes me a tax resident in Thailand, I still don't pay tax and that is all that needs to be said, in my situation ????

 

You still don't get it- I am talking about the principle that countries' tax residency laws are independent of each other.

 

 Your tax status or lack of it in Australia is not what 'make you a tax resident in Thailand'.  

 

Thailand's tax residency criteria are not affected by whether Australia considers you tax resident. They are independent systems which cannot affect each other.

 

You either are, or are not, according to Thailand's tax code alone, with no reference to your status anywhere else.

Edited October 16, 2020 by partington

[Leaver]

On 10/15/2020 at 6:27 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I did get your point, but also stated my personal circumstances, i.e. as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, I don't pay tax, now if being a non resident of Australia for tax purposes makes me a tax resident in Thailand, I still don't pay tax and that is all that needs to be said, in my situation ????

 

Do you generate ANY income in Australia?  

[4MyEgo]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

Do you generate ANY income in Australia?  

All of my income is generated in Australia.

 

Please DO NOT try and tell me that I have to pay tax here in Thailand or in Australia unless you can back such statements up with credible links.

 

1) I pay 10% withholding tax on money held in Australian bank accounts

2) I pay ZERO tax from fully franked shares held in the Australian stock exchange

3) I pay ZERO capital gains tax on shares sold

4) I pay 32.5c tax for every $ earned from online consultancy work for Australian residents, paid into Australian banks

 

Apart from the above, Thailand receives nil on the above 4, and as advised by my accountant every year when I do my tax returns only for income earned from consultancy work for Australian residents which is paid into Australian bank accounts and the 10% withholding tax is payable to the Australian taxation department, I also have a letter from the ATO stating clearly that I will only pay tax on 1 & 4 of the above.

 

I have been told by some here on TVF before about a double tax treaty and that I am subject to Thai tax laws from the income I earn from Australia as I am a resident of Thailand, however on each occasion no such evidence or link has been provided to back up what they have said, so to me it is hearsay. 

[userabcd]

From what I understand article 41 of the Thai tax code

Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

 

DTA does not automatically exclude one from paying tax in a country. It depends on the tax laws of each country where one is considered resident and if one should pay tax or submit a tax return.

 

The DTA is a mechanism by which one can claim relief or exemption on taxes to pay in each country in which the tax payer is resident.

 

Has anyone a link to the specific article in the Thai tax code which states that income earned in a previous year outside Thailand can be remitted into Thailand the following year without paying tax in Thailand or claiming exemption/relief through a dta for taxes paid or not paid where the income was earned outside Thailand? (Info other than what the big accounting firms inform in their brochures)

Edited October 17, 2020 by userabcd

[oznomad]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

4) I pay 32.5c tax for every $ earned from online consultancy work for Australian residents, paid into Australian banks

Why not open a company in a low or zero tax country?

You don't live or do the work in Aus, so giving them a third seems a waste to this correspondent. 

[Leaver]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

All of my income is generated in Australia.

 

Please DO NOT try and tell me that I have to pay tax here in Thailand or in Australia unless you can back such statements up with credible links.

 

1) I pay 10% withholding tax on money held in Australian bank accounts

2) I pay ZERO tax from fully franked shares held in the Australian stock exchange

3) I pay ZERO capital gains tax on shares sold

4) I pay 32.5c tax for every $ earned from online consultancy work for Australian residents, paid into Australian banks

 

Apart from the above, Thailand receives nil on the above 4, and as advised by my accountant every year when I do my tax returns only for income earned from consultancy work for Australian residents which is paid into Australian bank accounts and the 10% withholding tax is payable to the Australian taxation department, I also have a letter from the ATO stating clearly that I will only pay tax on 1 & 4 of the above.

 

I have been told by some here on TVF before about a double tax treaty and that I am subject to Thai tax laws from the income I earn from Australia as I am a resident of Thailand, however on each occasion no such evidence or link has been provided to back up what they have said, so to me it is hearsay. 

I think I have misunderstood.

 

When you said you don't pay tax, I thought you meant in Australia, where your income is being generated.

 

Clearly, you are paying tax in Australia.

 

If working online and on the phone, I know the chances of being caught are slim to zero, but you are working here.  

[4MyEgo]

9 minutes ago, oznomad said:

Why not open a company in a low or zero tax country?

You don't live or do the work in Aus, so giving them a third seems a waste to this correspondent. 

Your correct, however as I only earn around $20,000 less expenses of say $5,000 they would get around $5,000 in tax, it's a part time side gig I continued while here, not that I really need the beer money.

 

I have done this over the past 5 years and setting up a company wouldn't be worth it for me, that said, now any work I get, I just direct the payee to put it into my mums account, e.g. up to $4,500 in total per year as she can earn that much before they start cutting her pension, then some to my daughters account, she is a student same applies and then some to my wife's account and with Covid this year the consultancy work has slowed down by about 50%, so the tax should be minimal if any ????

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by 4MyEgo