Scotland's Sturgeon puts UK on independence warning: We want a referendum soon

[RuamRudy]

Nice to see our French friends extending fraternal 'auld alliance' greetings on St Andrews Day. Scotland and France have a long and warm history of cooperation, and I have no doubts that this strong partnership will continue for many centuries to come as we work together to achieve our common goals. 

 

 

 

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Nice to see our French friends extending fraternal 'auld alliance' greetings on St Andrews Day. Scotland and France have a long and warm history of cooperation, and I have no doubts that this strong partnership will continue for many centuries to come as we work together to achieve our common goals. 

 

 

 

 " french friends "? Shes using scotland like a 2 bob ho and you can,t see it.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.

 

[luckyluke]

11 hours ago, vogie said:

If I can turn that around, do you think the 48% care about the 52% that chose to leave the EU,

 

In my opinion, there is no need for a minority to "care" about a majority,

the greater number having the power,

the minority is impuissant, it can only suggest.

 

Further I think how less the winning margin is from a majority, how more it should "care" about the minority.

 

 

[JonnyF]

15 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So when you guys won the Brexit referendum you would have been happy to see the government just ignore the result?

Parliament is sovereign. As you loved to remind us Brexiteers when the Remain parliament was stifling a real Brexit.

 

Just as they voted to enact article 50, they could vote to ignore the result of Indyref2. That's the way it works. Kind of sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, right?????

[JonnyF]

12 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Yeah but you're English and we Scots all hate you. You need to understand, and yes I appreciate you arrived late and have not read the rest of the thread, that us Scots are all racist's and bigots.

We hate you English. 

Finally, some progress.

 

Now you just have to admit you don't really want Scotland to be independent and we'll be there. ????

[Rookiescot]

42 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Finally, some progress.

 

Now you just have to admit you don't really want Scotland to be independent and we'll be there. ????

 

Well the meaning of my post went right over your head didnt it.

Woooooosh !

[Rookiescot]

12 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

So I did some more research.

 

An enclave is not what the shetlands would be, as an enclave is a territory (or a part of one) that is entirely surrounded by the territory of one other state. The Shetlands woould become either a Crown dependency, a British overseas territory, or an independent nation.

 

Seeing as only 8% of Shetlanders want complete independence, a movement called Wir Shetland was launched in October 2015 to secede from the rest of Scotland in favour of becoming either a Crown Dependency or a British Overseas Territory, as a means of achieving greater autonomy for the Shetland Isles.

 

The SNP only holds one seat on the council - the other 21 are independents. So it wasn't the SNP that gave the greenlight, it was led by independents.

 

The channel islands have 2 islands which are  'Crown dependencies' - self governing islands that are possessed by the UK. Internationally, the dependencies are considered "territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible", rather than sovereign states.

 

As the Crown dependencies are not sovereign states, the power to pass legislation affecting the islands ultimately rests with the government of the United Kingdom (though this is rarely done without the consent of the dependencies, and the right to do so is disputed). However, they each have their own legislative assembly, with the power to legislate on many local matters with the assent of the Crown.

 

The territorial waters were purchased by the Isle of Man Government from the United Kingdom Government in 1991. The Territorial Sea Committee (TSC) is a cross-governmental committee which was set up to manage the Isle of Man's interests following the purchase. Purchased for £800,000, the ownership of the Territorial Sea has resulted in the Island collecting more than £2 million in capital fees and currently receives approximately £350,000 annually for cables and pipelines passing through the area and also from oil and gas exploration licences.

 

To summarize, The waters would belong to the Crown, and the oil and gas reserves would be lost to an independent Scotland.

 

Mate. I will give you an example.

Gibraltar. It has a 12 mile limit because its an enclave.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, vogie said:

But this is not about that is it, this is about the SNP not having a mandate to even ask for another referendum, you tried, you failed to get the result you wanted, now let us get on and live our peaceful lives and don't ignore the majority in Scotland, think what they want too.

Are you trying to say that the largest political party in Scotland does not have an independence referendum in it's manifesto?

As for the majority in Scotland, independence would only come about on their say so. Maybe you can explain how that would ignore them.

 

It is fairly obvious all objection to the referendum is based on a pre conceived outcome, Bojo can't stand the thought of telling the Queen she must give up Balmoral.

 

 

[NanLaew]

31 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Well the meaning of my post went right over your head didnt it.

Woooooosh !

 

Actually, that whooshing sound was your conflation of bigotry with hatred that you wrongly embellish as hatred of the English.

[vogie]

29 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Are you trying to say that the largest political party in Scotland does not have an independence referendum in it's manifesto?

As for the majority in Scotland, independence would only come about on their say so. Maybe you can explain how that would ignore them.

 

It is fairly obvious all objection to the referendum is based on a pre conceived outcome, Bojo can't stand the thought of telling the Queen she must give up Balmoral.

 

 

No I didn't say that, you have made that up and attributed it to me.

[ivor bigun]

All i can say to this little poison dwarf ,is ,you had a referendum ,the people decided not to leave ,now please go away and play with you goblin friends.

[NanLaew]

30 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is fairly obvious all objection to the referendum is based on a pre conceived outcome, Bojo can't stand the thought of telling the Queen she must give up Balmoral.

 

But she could declare Balmoral and the extents of 'Royal Deeside' a Principality like Liechtenstein, Monaco or the co-principality of Andorra.

 

That'll do wonders for the local land prices I reckon.

[2530Ubon]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Mate. I will give you an example.

Gibraltar. It has a 12 mile limit because its an enclave.

You are spot on about a lot of things, but not this!

 

Gibraltar only has a 3 mile limit as that was all the British Government decided to claim. They are entitled to 12, but don't have 12. 

http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm

 

An enclave is any territory surrounded by another state, it is merely a geographical reference, not a designation. For example, The Vatican city is also an enclave, and a state. Gibraltar is geographically an enclave and internationally designated as a British Overseas Territory.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238724623_Gibraltar_Sovereignty_disputes_and_territorial_waters

 

Gibraltar does not YET have an Exclusive Economic Zone (maritime law +200 nm from base of continental shelf) simply because they have not claimed it as there is no need;

The UK was late to establish an EEZ, relying on overlapping maritime zones for fisheries, pollution control, and energy matters. The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 gave the powers to establish an EEZ, with the zone defined by The Exclusive Economic Zone Order 2013 which came into force on 31 March 2014.[4][5]

The United Kingdom has not claimed an EEZ extending from Gibraltar or Akrotiri and Dhekelia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone_of_the_United_Kingdom

 

The waters are further muddied (no pun intended) by a series of treaties signed with Spain called; Peace of Utrecht. This is causing some headaches with the EU, Spain and the UK; https://www.britannica.com/topic/treaties-of-Utrecht.

 

To summarize, Gibraltar is entitled to an EEZ extending 200nm in accordance with maritime law, and it is a British Overseas Territory.

 

Gibraltar would be a good case study for the Shetlands and it's future EEZ, should it decide to succeed from Scotland. Should it elect to remain a part of the UK as a Crown Dependency, or a British Overseas Territory, then the Shetlands would be able to claim around 50% (see previous post with reference) of the oil & gas reserves that a future independent Scotland would like to claim. Perhaps trying to win over the islanders now would be a good idea for the SNP to prevent this split from occurring and possibly damaging Scotlands future economic independence.

Edited December 1, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

You are spot on about a lot of things, but not this!

 

Gibraltar only has a 3 mile limit as that was all the British Government decided to claim. They are entitled to 12, but don't have 12. 

http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm

 

An enclave is any territory surrounded by another state, it is merely a geographical reference, not a designation. For example, The Vatican city is also an enclave, and a state. Gibraltar is geographically an enclave and internationally designated as a British Overseas Territory.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238724623_Gibraltar_Sovereignty_disputes_and_territorial_waters

 

Gibraltar does not YET have an Exclusive Economic Zone (maritime law +200 nm from base of continental shelf) simply because they have not claimed it as there is no need;

The UK was late to establish an EEZ, relying on overlapping maritime zones for fisheries, pollution control, and energy matters. The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 gave the powers to establish an EEZ, with the zone defined by The Exclusive Economic Zone Order 2013 which came into force on 31 March 2014.[4][5]

The United Kingdom has not claimed an EEZ extending from Gibraltar or Akrotiri and Dhekelia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone_of_the_United_Kingdom

 

The waters are further muddied (no pun intended) by a series of treaties signed with Spain called; Peace of Utrecht. This is causing some headaches with the EU, Spain and the UK; https://www.britannica.com/topic/treaties-of-Utrecht.

 

To summarize, Gibraltar is entitled to an EEZ extending 200nm in accordance with maritime law, and it is a British Overseas Territory.

 

Gibraltar would be a good case study for the Shetlands and it's future EEZ, should it decide to succeed from Scotland. Should it elect to remain a part of the UK as a Crown Dependency, or a British Overseas Territory, then the Shetlands would be able to claim around 50% (see previous post with reference) of the oil & gas reserves that a future independent Scotland would like to claim. Perhaps trying to win over the islanders now would be a good idea for the SNP to prevent this split from occurring and possibly damaging Scotlands future economic independence.

 

No. The Shetland Isles would be an enclave surrounded by the Scottish continental shelf. 

They can claim everything within a 12 mile limit. Thats it.

 

[2530Ubon]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

No. The Shetland Isles would be an enclave surrounded by the Scottish continental shelf. 

They can claim everything within a 12 mile limit. Thats it.

 

No. The Shetlands would lay a claim to the continental shelf. The same as Scotland will lay a claim to the UK's continental shelf when it seeks independence.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/shetland-islands-vote-to-explore-independence-from-scotland-12068826

Plans intend to look into the option of Shetland being governed as a Crown Dependency, similar to Jersey and the Isle of Man, rather than becoming an independent nation.

This would mean they would be able to retain the revenue from oil in their waters, something that would negatively impact on Scotland's finance if the independence was obtained.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1336286/nicola-sturgeon-news-scotland-independence-shetland-islands-referendum-spt

If independence was obtained, the Shetland Islands would be able to retain the revenue from oil in their waters, negatively impacting Scotland's finances.

However, Mr MacDonald noted that the economic consequences would not be the most crucial issue.

He said: "Oil is still significant but not as significant as it was 10 years ago, or as it was in 2014

Edited December 1, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, 2530Ubon said:

No. The Shetlands would lay a claim to the continental shelf. The same as Scotland will lay a claim to the UK's continental shelf when it seeks independence.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/shetland-islands-vote-to-explore-independence-from-scotland-12068826

Plans intend to look into the option of Shetland being governed as a Crown Dependency, similar to Jersey and the Isle of Man, rather than becoming an independent nation.

This would mean they would be able to retain the revenue from oil in their waters, something that would negatively impact on Scotland's finance if the independence was obtained.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1336286/nicola-sturgeon-news-scotland-independence-shetland-islands-referendum-spt

If independence was obtained, the Shetland Islands would be able to retain the revenue from oil in their waters, negatively impacting Scotland's finances.

However, Mr MacDonald noted that the economic consequences would not be the most crucial issue.

He said: "Oil is still significant but not as significant as it was 10 years ago, or as it was in 2014

 

OK now go goggle Isle of Man and Jersey territorial waters.

They have a 12 mile limit. Thats it.

Both those articles you linked deliberately failed to mention that because they are based on a statement made by a famous unionist called Ronald McDonald (stop laughing back there).

 

[melvinmelvin]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Mate. I will give you an example.

Gibraltar. It has a 12 mile limit because its an enclave.

 

that does not sound sound

 

[2530Ubon]

49 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

OK now go goggle Isle of Man and Jersey territorial waters.

They have a 12 mile limit. Thats it.

Both those articles you linked deliberately failed to mention that because they are based on a statement made by a famous unionist called Ronald McDonald (stop laughing back there).

 

Sorry, I did laugh a little and immediately envisaged a big mac with fries. Damn, now I'm hungry!

 

I think your missing something, ALL countries only have a 12 mile limit for territorial waters. That's it. For example, The UK extended its territorial waters from three to twelve nautical miles in 1987.

 

All inhabitable landmasses are also able to have a contiguous zone an exclusive economic zone, and a claim on the continental shelf (there is even an extended shelf) which stretches out to over 200 miles.

 

As the Channel Islands & Isle of man are considered Crown dependencies, they are listed under the UK's EEZ (exclusive economic zone). The Channel Islands has an exclusive economic zone of 2516.228 square miles. (approximately 200 miles out each side)

https://fisherymanagement.fandom.com/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone

United Kingdom Edit

764,071 km²

• Ascension Islands: 443,844 km²
• British Indian Ocean Tr. (UK): 636,600 km²
• Channel Islands (UK): 6,517 km²
• Gibraltar (UK): 331 km²
• Montserrat (UK): 8,247 km²
• Pitcairn (UK): 837,221 km²
• Saint Helena (UK): 446,616 km²
• Tristan da Cunha Islands (UK): 749,612 km²
• Virgin Islands (UK): 80,701 km²
• total: 3,973,760 km²

What is worth noting, is why would only Scotland be able to claim all the sea if there is another independent (or a part of the UK) state in the waters. This is just unreasonable thinking - especially as it's a set of islands 130 miles north of Scotland! Effectively, your saying Scotland can grab all the water and resources and who cares about the fact that the oil is actually much closer to (potentially) another state. And that other state has a legal right to claim an EEZ.

Essentially, that's the same as saying "When Scotland gains independence, the UK will keep all of those waters with the oil in it." I think the Scottish people would quite rightly tell the UK to shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, 2530Ubon said:

Sorry, I did laugh a little and immediately envisaged a big mac with fries. Damn, now I'm hungry!

 

I think your missing something, ALL countries only have a 12 mile limit for territorial waters. That's it. For example, The UK extended its territorial waters from three to twelve nautical miles in 1987.

 

All inhabitable landmasses are also able to have a contiguous zone an exclusive economic zone, and a claim on the continental shelf (there is even an extended shelf) which stretches out to over 200 miles.

 

As the Channel Islands & Isle of man are considered Crown dependencies, they are listed under the UK's EEZ (exclusive economic zone). The Channel Islands has an exclusive economic zone of 2516.228 square miles. (approximately 200 miles out each side)

https://fisherymanagement.fandom.com/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone

United Kingdom Edit

764,071 km²

• Ascension Islands: 443,844 km²
• British Indian Ocean Tr. (UK): 636,600 km²
• Channel Islands (UK): 6,517 km²
• Gibraltar (UK): 331 km²
• Montserrat (UK): 8,247 km²
• Pitcairn (UK): 837,221 km²
• Saint Helena (UK): 446,616 km²
• Tristan da Cunha Islands (UK): 749,612 km²
• Virgin Islands (UK): 80,701 km²
• total: 3,973,760 km²

What is worth noting, is why would only Scotland be able to claim all the sea if there is another independent (or a part of the UK) state in the waters. This is just unreasonable thinking - especially as it's a set of islands 130 miles north of Scotland! Effectively, your saying Scotland can grab all the water and resources and who cares about the fact that the oil is actually much closer to (potentially) another state. And that other state has a legal right to claim an EEZ.

Essentially, that's the same as saying "When Scotland gains independence, the UK will keep all of those waters with the oil in it." I think the Scottish people would quite rightly tell the UK to shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

 

 

Here we see the true extent of this oft repeated fable of Shetland's desire for independence:

 

Shetland Islands warns Sturgeon we ‘won’t ask permission’ for freedom from Scotland

 

If you don't want to click the link (it is the Express, after all) I will save you the bother and let you know that the person agitating, the person who says 'we won't ask permission', is none other than Englishman Stuart Hill, otherwise known as Captain Calamity. 

 

Why he thinks he speaks for Shetland is anyone's guess - certainly the islanders themselves don't see him as a leader, having given him barely 1% of their votes at the last election when he stood on an independence platform. 

[sandyf]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:45 AM, vogie said:

No I didn't say that, you have made that up and attributed it to me.

I didn't make anything up, I asked a question, try reading the post before comment.

Your words or not?

 

"But this is not about that is it, this is about the SNP not having a mandate to even ask for another referendum, "

 

Bojo claimed that winning the election, being the largest political party, gave him a mandate to implement the party manifesto.

Obviously you believe that does not apply north of the border, one rule for the English and another for the Scots, and you wonder why people want to be free of the hypocrisy.

[vogie]

47 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I didn't make anything up, I asked a question, try reading the post before comment.

Your words or not?

 

"But this is not about that is it, this is about the SNP not having a mandate to even ask for another referendum, "

 

Bojo claimed that winning the election, being the largest political party, gave him a mandate to implement the party manifesto.

Obviously you believe that does not apply north of the border, one rule for the English and another for the Scots, and you wonder why people want to be free of the hypocrisy.

Mrs Sturgeon has even said that she doesn't have a mandate, so forget twisting what other posters say all the time, does Sturgeon have a mandate 'yes or no'. 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Mrs Sturgeon has even said that she doesn't have a mandate, so forget twisting what other posters say all the time, does Sturgeon have a mandate 'yes or no'. 

 

Has she said that? I would be interested to see the comment in full. Can you please link to it?

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Mrs Sturgeon has even said that she doesn't have a mandate, so forget twisting what other posters say all the time, does Sturgeon have a mandate 'yes or no'. 

By definition, the SNP would have a mandate. Elections are held on a manifesto so it is the party that holds the mandate, although Bojo thinks he has a mandate to do as he pleases. Had a taste of reality last night.

 

Mandate

"the authority to do something, given to a government or other organization by the people who vote for it in an election"

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/mandate_1

 

Contrary to your claim

 

"But this is not about that is it, this is about the SNP not having a mandate to even ask for another referendum, "

[nkg]

The opinion polls are getting much closer ... looks like independence is as far away as ever for Scotland ????????????

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by nkg

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, nkg said:

The opinion polls are getting much closer ... looks like independence is as far away as ever for Scotland ????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to my good Scottish education delivered by good Scottish teachers, I can say with total confidence that 52 is bigger than 48. 

[nkg]

17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Thanks to my good Scottish education delivered by good Scottish teachers, I can say with total confidence that 52 is bigger than 48. 

 

 

Your good friend Rookiescot was boasting that the polls were showing 58 to 42 back in November. It looks like scottish enthusiasm for independence is fading ...

Edited December 14, 2020 by nkg

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, nkg said:

 

 

Your good friend Rookiescot was boasting that the polls were showing 58 to 42 back in November. It looks like scottish enthusiasm for independence is fading ...

You could be right - let's be honest, little engurland is looking like a tasty prospect at the moment. 

[RuamRudy]

On 12/15/2020 at 1:02 AM, nkg said:

The opinion polls are getting much closer ... looks like independence is as far away as ever for Scotland ????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

A bit of an update on your gleeful reporting on the Survation poll results. Far be it for me to p!ss on your chips, but the devil is in the detail, as they say.

 

As per the data tables (https://www.survation.com/survation-scotland-political-poll-december-2020-1-3/) 39% of those polled are in the age range 55+, which has consistently shown itself pro-UK. However, the reality is that this demographic only makes up 29% of the population.

 

As we all know, the 16 to 55 age range is strongly pro independence, so I remain confident that the Scottish electorate does not look south and think to itself, 'you know, continuing under their thumb looks positively attractive'. 

 

 

 

[nkg]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

A bit of an update on your gleeful reporting on the Survation poll results. Far be it for me to p!ss on your chips, but the devil is in the detail, as they say.

 

As per the data tables (https://www.survation.com/survation-scotland-political-poll-december-2020-1-3/) 39% of those polled are in the age range 55+, which has consistently shown itself pro-UK. However, the reality is that this demographic only makes up 29% of the population.

 

As we all know, the 16 to 55 age range is strongly pro independence, so I remain confident that the Scottish electorate does not look south and think to itself, 'you know, continuing under their thumb looks positively attractive'. 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought that the 16-24 age group voted No by 54.2% to Yes's 45.7%? They must not have known that they were "strongly pro independence" like you do ...