Brexit negotiations restart in person as clock ticks down

[melvinmelvin]

 

OBR and quote and exact page number sought for

 

Order of British Realm 42

 

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

I see the National Farmers Union has today (to placate  those who will accuse me of cherry picking - it was OBR yesterday) of the ‘catastrophic scenario of a no deal brexit’ 

 

Cue a brexiteer saying they don’t know what they’re talking about or adding them to their humoungus list of bias parties ????

 

I can't see anything like that on their site, where did this come from?

[Bruntoid]

I see the National Farmers Union has today (to placate  those who will accuse me of cherry picking - it was OBR yesterday) of the ‘catastrophic scenario of a no deal brexit’ 

 

Cue a brexiteer saying they don’t know what they’re talking about or adding them to their humoungus list of bias parties ????

[7by7]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 It seems that the government, as well as most poultry farmers in the UK, do not share the Grocer's view!

 I am reminded, @nauseus, that the NFU don't, either.

 

One million people sign food standards petition

Quote

They do not want to see chlorinated chicken or hormone-fed beef on their supermarket shelves and nor do they want to see food imported which has been produced in lower welfare or environmental systems than is legally allowed in this country.  Farmers, animal welfare groups, environmentalists and now the public have made their voices clear.

 Despite it's biased, misleading headline (surprise, surprise, where do they get their subs from?) even the Express had to admit it

Quote

"When we hear about the chlorination of chicken, I think the chlorination bit is actually slightly misleading.

"People think about chlorine, but actually the challenge with the US production system is that their chicken production uses five times the level of antibiotics that our production in the UK does.

"We're really proud to have reduced our antibiotic use dramatically in UK farming."

 

[Bruntoid]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

OBR and quote and exact page number sought for

 

Order of British Realm 42

 

Is that code for some attack or something ? 

[Bruntoid]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I can't see anything like that on their site, where did this come from?

and yet a 1.5 second google search will find it ????

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 I am reminded, @nauseus, that the NFU don't, either.

 

One million people sign food standards petition

 Despite it's biased, misleading headline (surprise, surprise, where do they get their subs from?) even the Express had to admit it

 

 

OMG it's back to the chlorinated KFC again!

 

Nitey nite - don't let the tv bedbugs bite.

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

Is that code for some attack or something ? 

nope

its a fraternity password for those well read in modern English Lit.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Bruntoid said:

and yet a 1.5 second google search will find it ????

 

Well the last one didn't and top of the list was the NFU site I looked at.

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

nope

its a fraternity password for those well read in modern English Lit.

 

works all over except in Surrey

[Bruntoid]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

And yet you keep missing. 

Give up and emigrate to an EU hell hole. 

ouch touchy ! 
 

Given you haven’t come up with any economic answers in 4 years I would say it’s a direct hit every time - only it’s getting tedious pulling Brexiteers apart now. 
 

Any hell holes in particular ? Moss Side ? Toxteth? Any U.K. coastal town ? 

[Bruntoid]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Well the last one didn't and top of the list was the NFU site I looked at.

and the second ? Stop embarrassing yourself chap. 
 

‘national farmers union Brexit’ just to help you along 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Bruntoid

[7by7]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

16 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

I see the National Farmers Union has today (to placate  those who will accuse me of cherry picking - it was OBR yesterday) of the ‘catastrophic scenario of a no deal brexit’ 

 

Cue a brexiteer saying they don’t know what they’re talking about or adding them to their humoungus list of bias parties ????

Expand  

 

I can't see anything like that on their site, where did this come from?

 

The NFU have actually been warning of the catastrophe of a no deal Brexit for at least two years now!

 

No-deal Brexit 'catastrophic' for British farming 24/9/18

 

Why a no-deal Brexit is catastrophic for British farming 10/4/19

 

Welsh (NFU) farming chief says no-deal Brexit "hugely concerning" 16/10/20

 

 

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

OMG it's back to the chlorinated KFC again!

 Yep, more facts.

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Nitey nite - don't let the tv bedbugs bite.

Nighty, night. Hope the facts don't give you nightmares!

[7by7]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Well the last one didn't and top of the list was the NFU site I looked at.

 Wonder what you put in.

 

I put "NFU warns of no deal Brexit" and the links I posted above were all on the first page!

 

Though I admit, not the first result. That was A no-deal Brexit must be avoided at all costs, UK Farming Roundtable warns 15/1/19.

 

I used the three I did to avoid duplication and as I wanted to give an even spread; I also put them into date order

 

You'll notice that all links, except the Welsh one, are from the NFU website.

Edited November 30, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[kingdong]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Wrong; again. 

 

How many more times do you have to be reminded of what it actually said on Boris' bus?

 

Symbol of democracy? When Boris lied about the amount we paid and lied about what he'd do with the money we saved?

 

 Then you voted to sacrifice the economic benefits of membership to attain something we already had!

Not the big red bus regurgitated,read what it says" lets " not exactly a legally binding agreement,anyway pales into insignificance when one considers the lies told by project fear.

[Hi from France]

38 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The NFU have actually been warning of the catastrophe of a no deal Brexit for at least two years now!

 

No-deal Brexit 'catastrophic' for British farming 24/9/18

 

Why a no-deal Brexit is catastrophic for British farming 10/4/19

 

Welsh (NFU) farming chief says no-deal Brexit "hugely concerning" 16/10/20

 

 

as it turns out, the EU purpose is to protect and help european farming develop. 

 

US farming is completely different and uses lowers standards to produce cheaper food (and more obesity). The EU know very well the UK and UE interests converge (and diverge from those of the USA).

 

Thus quality food, rules of origins are as precious to the UK as to the EU.

 

 

It is very unlikely the UK will sacrifice his farmers to get a deal with the USA. Farming is much much bigger than fishing

[placeholder]

Boris Johnson will get a deal: but it will be a betrayal of the Brexiters

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/30/boris-johnson-deal-betrayal-brexiters-no-deal

[Hi from France]

35 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Boris Johnson will get a deal: but it will be a betrayal of the Brexiters

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/30/boris-johnson-deal-betrayal-brexiters-no-deal

 

 

quick read and comments

 

 

Quote

It needs no crystal ball to foresee a deal. Though this government is disgraceful and dishonest, it is not certifiably insane. It will not kill off the car industry, manufacturing, farming, finance and fishing. It will not cut off security and police relations with Europe. Nor will it want a hard border in Ireland, breaking the Good Friday agreement. And nor will it freeze friendship with the new US president, nor leave relations with our nearest neighbours and traders irreparably rancorous.

Polly Toynbee is optimistic

 

 

Quote

 Finally ministers have to face up to the futility of what they have done: they will struggle to deny their Brexit idea was a lie, never available. For the Brexiteers, Johnson’s deal will fail miserably. That’s because any deal would always trade some of that sovereignty fairy dust for something more tangible – such as no massive tariff on British beef.

it all depends on which brexiteers you talk about: extremist brexiteers will never be pleased.

Even with a no-deal they will go on complaining forever about the "tentacles" of the EU and us not being nice enough with them

 

 

 

 

Quote

However hard he bluffs and fibs to disguise the inconvenient truth, Johnson will sign a deal that agrees to align with EU standards on working rights, animal welfare, the environment and much else. For any future divergences there will be an adjudications body, which may or may not be the European court of justice.

probably not the ECJ, I understand the ideology there, though this is the exact opposite to a pragmatic Britain. "Keep you seats in the ECJ and lets deal" would have been cheaper, faster. But pragmatic Britain is no more, we have populist Britain now.

 

I just hope the brits will pay for creating this new adjudications body instead of us. This is not news: the brits have spent forty years complaining about EU red tape while creating more red tape ...

 

I also hope this adjudication body will be very fast in sanctionning the cheating which has to be expected.

 

 

 

Quote

Fish will be reapportioned, with complexity and transitions that try to shield the hard fact: we took back control of our waters in theory, but gave it up in the same breath because there is no fishing industry without that vital EU market to buy more than 70% of our catch. 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure it's a good idea to sell fish with a british flag on the box anywhere in the EU.

 

 

 

 

Quote

Lawbreaking clauses in the internal markets bill repudiating last year’s EU withdrawal agreement will be abandoned. The Northern Ireland protocol will stand – so there will be a border down the Irish Sea, with customs posts.

With the help of the US, and as a EU member, I certainly hope the little Republic of Ireland will prevail against its former colonizer

 

 

 

 

Quote

Those who shout betrayal will be dead right. Everyone who voted Brexit, or for Johnson, believing his magical cake-and-eat-it deal was oven-ready will be betrayed.

 

those who were stupid enough to believe that deserve no less

 

 

 

Quote

A deal was always inevitable because the rules laid out by Margaret Thatcher’s single market are crystal clear: the more you want to trade with the market, the more you must conform to it. 

hear hear

 

 

 

Quote

Here’s the verdict from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) on the deal, hidden in annexes and unearthed by Jill Rutter for UK in a Changing Europe. The deal will cause a 4% drop in GDP.

still better than the 8% drop of no-deal

 

 

 

Quote

Even the pandemic won’t hide the Brexit hit to manufacturing and finance, as mountainous red tape includes 270m customs declarations (as opposed to 55m now) and 50,000 new customs agents.

the upside is the creation of 50.000 jobs. Not the most stimulating jobs though ..

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Hi from France

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

as it turns out, the EU purpose is to protect and help european farming develop. 

 

US farming is completely different and uses lowers standards to produce cheaper food (and more obesity). The EU know very well the UK and UE interests converge (and diverge from those of the USA).

 

Thus quality food, rules of origins are as precious to the UK as to the EU.

 

 

It is very unlikely the UK will sacrifice his farmers to get a deal with the USA. Farming is much much bigger than fishing

On the other hand the agricultural subsidy system is deeply corrupt.

The Money Farmers: How Oligarchs and Populists Milk the E.U. for Millions - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

Who Keeps Europe’s Farm Billions Flowing? Often, Those Who Benefit - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

And there's this

Europe must act on intensive farming to save wildlife, scientists say | Food | The Guardian

The Common Agricultural Policy | Friends of the Earth Europe (foeeurope.org)

 

 

 

[Hi from France]

37 minutes ago, placeholder said:

On the other hand the agricultural subsidy system is deeply corrupt.

"corrupt" is plain false, but clearly it could perform much better

 

.. and in this regard, (surprise surprise) Brexit might be an opportunity ????

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/30/environment-to-benefit-from-biggest-farming-shake-up-in-50-years

 

 

Quote

The £1.6bn subsidy farmers receive every year for simply owning land will be phased out by 2028, with the funds used instead to pay them to restore wild habitats, create new woodlands, boost soils and cut pesticide use.

(..)

Quote

Farmers will also get grants to improve productivity and animal welfare, including new robotic equipment. The goal of the plan is that farmers will – within seven years – be producing healthy and profitable food in a sustainable way and without subsidies.

 

now if this turns out to be true (which I do not believe with the current populist-liar government, but there won't be to Boris J in power a few months/years from now, so for 2028, so there's hope).

 

now if, if this turns out to be true:

1. this should set an example for the EU common agricultural policy (which is not corrupt and was able to turn Europe into an agro-superpower)... with many shortcomings (Some of the biggest recipients of the existing EU scheme have been the Duke of Westminster, the inventor Sir James Dyson, racehorse owner Prince Khalid bin Abdullah al Saud and the Queen, not the little farmer).
2. this means no trading deal with the USA, or rather a very limited deal. The US wants two things in exchange for accessing their market: farming exports and privatizing the NHS. The UK can still trade off the NHS in exchange for giving a much-needed boost to its financial industry. "producing healthy and profitable food" is certainly not what the mass-producing US farming industry wants, quite the opposite. US agro-industry thrives on gigantic fields with MGO and pesticides, chlorinated mass-produced chicken, and cheap food that makes you fat...

 

 

.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Hi from France

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

The numbers are in your link, which fails to prove anything. 

The UK finance minister said it himself, next year is gonna be the worst in 300 years for the UK, but if you want to keep your head in the sand and deny what’s going on then go for it. No skin off my nose! 

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, Loiner said:

 

 

Just like the EU cherry picking which conditions they would 'allow' the UK to Brexit with. OK, you can leave but there are some conditions: 
We still want the same rights to your fish,

We still want to make all the rules about your state aid

We still want to make you subject to our courts

We still want your money and lots of other things which were hidden in the WA and not being publicized in the trade negotiations

We still want to cherry pick from the UK treasure island

Well, they can play the game just as well as you guys it seems, only the EU won’t be nowhere nearly as much on the losing side as the UK will! 

[Hi from France]

14 hours ago, Loiner said:

 

 

Just like the EU cherry picking which conditions they would 'allow' the UK to Brexit with. OK, you can leave but there are some conditions: 
We still want the same rights to your fish,

We still want to make all the rules about your state aid

We still want to make you subject to our courts

We still want your money and lots of other things which were hidden in the WA and not being publicized in the trade negotiations

We still want to cherry pick from the UK treasure island

Plain and simple, this is what happens when you deal with a bigger player than you. 

 

But don't worry, the other major players US and China will want a piece of you too and they might be be a bit more brutal. I suppose you can see how China deals with Australia right now : they do not negotiate for years, simply blackmail the "weakest party" into submission. 

 

Now, there's not much there to complain about, between world powers "it's just business" and this is how the UK used to run things in its own empire.

 

. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Well, they can play the game just as well as you guys it seems, only the EU won’t be nowhere nearly as much on the losing side as the UK will! 

Yes. The EU has never made any secret of the fact that it will be hurt too as a result of Brexit. It's just that the UK will be hurt far worse. It's a simple arithmetical question of size of their respective economies.

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Yes. The EU has never made any secret of the fact that it will be hurt too as a result of Brexit. It's just that the UK will be hurt far worse. It's a simple arithmetical question of size of their respective economies.

Yes....I keep reading stuff like this then come back to down to Earth as I'd forgotten all about the blue passports.

[billd766]

15 hours ago, Hi from France said:

because we followed the debates in the Commons and listened to the speeches of prominent brexiters.

 

The aim of Brexit is 1/to turn the UK into some "Singapore on Thames", drain EU companies headquarters with low taxation and 2/undermine europeans industries with lower regulatory standards (faster rule making, but also lower pay for workers, higher pollution...). As well as subzidzing heavily some industries (like One Web bought by the decision of Cummings)

 

We can have that with China 7800 kilometers away and not on the single market, same from Canada 6800 km away.

 

... Now, accepting that "a channel tunnel away from us" in another matter entirely.

 

 

 

That's why the level playing field is a prerequisite for the UK to gain access to the single market.

 

 

 

So who decides what is a level playing field? The EU,the UK or both? And what happens if neither can agree, as it is now?

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

So who decides what is a level playing field? The EU,the UK or both? And what happens if neither can agree, as it is now?

 

compared to the USA and China the EU is a very nice negociating partner, I know lots of posters here, like Loiner cannot understand that and see the EU as a kind of "nazi organization with tentacles" but it's very far from the truth.

 

The EU was created to promote peace after Europe was devastated by WW 2 and it is a "negociating machine" it's been striking trade and other cooperation deals all over the world for forty years (and the UK is loosing the benefit of these deals in a few weeks, we'll see what happens then).

 

two weeks ago, I  posted an inside view of the negociations 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[nauseus]

17 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Then I await your definitive quote from it, with page number(s), once you've read it.

 

 

Roman Law and the Idea of Europe - Kaius Tuori

 

Introduction (page 1, para 1, first sentence).

 

"This book explores the controversial role of ancient Rome and its legal heritage,
Roman law, in the making of the idea of a shared European legal tradition".

 

 

 

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Plain and simple, this is what happens when you deal with a bigger player than you. 

 

But don't worry, the other major players US and China will want a piece of you too and they might be be a bit more brutal. I suppose you can see how China deals with Australia right now : they do not negotiate for years, simply blackmail the "weakest party" into submission. 

 

Now, there's not much there to complain about, between world powers "it's just business" and this is how the UK used to run things in its own empire.

 

. 

 

So you support and advocate bullying then?

 

Thought so.