Brexit talks still stuck because EU is asking too much, UK says

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, polpott said:

This argument holds good if you apply the simple reality that UK is the tenant not the EU. We're leaving the EU, they're not leaving us.

The fishing grounds are part of the UK not the EU , The EU has access to the UK fishing waters until December 31st 2020

[billd766]

5 hours ago, David in the north said:

Correct. I voted to join a "Common Market" - not a united states of Europe. We were lied to. Now run as a benefit club for mostly unelected troughers!

Plus 1. I voted to join the EEC and NOT the EU.

[polpott]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

The fishing grounds are part of the UK not the EU , The EU has access to the UK fishing waters until December 31st 2020

Within a 12 mile limit. The rest is disputed.

[sawadee1947]

20 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Yes and the UK is taking exactly the same position....

regards worgeordie

No, they are still in the mood of cherry picking and law breaking actions 

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, polpott said:

France's problem is with migrants from non EU countries, primarily North Africa. The UK's problem is the same.

I disagree. They are a problem but also the problem is from the lovely countries of Albania, Romania, Bulgaria who can legally went to the UK and contributed very little.

 

Non EU countries are a problem but for the UK as we have left the EU the EU countries are becoming less.

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, luckyluke said:

t is not my impression that the majority of the man in the street blame the E.U. for this

"overruning", but more their own government to not take the necessary steps to control this situation. 

From a UK perspective, I blame Major and Blair. Both EU puppets, so yes the EU can bare some blame too.

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

From a UK perspective, I blame Major and Blair. Both EU puppets, so yes the EU can bare some blame too.

" Both E.U. puppets "

is of course a perception.

Many will certainly concur,

as many others won't.

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

" Both E.U. puppets "

is of course a perception.

Many will certainly concur,

as many others won't.

Please! Are you saying they are anti EU? What are they then.

Maybe you don't understand the term puppet in this context!

[luckyluke]

Just now, Laughing Gravy said:

Please! Are you saying they are anti EU? What are they then.

Maybe you don't understand the term puppet in this context!

"puppet : a person,  under the control of another."

 

Unless there are undeniable concrete proofs, accepted by everyone,  it remains a conviction.

 

Mr. Johnson was accused to be the puppet of Mr. Cummings,

there have never been irrefutable proofs of this.

[ThomasThBKK]

36 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I disagree. They are a problem but also the problem is from the lovely countries of Albania, Romania, Bulgaria who can legally went to the UK and contributed very little.

 

Non EU countries are a problem but for the UK as we have left the EU the EU countries are becoming less.

 

Albania is not even in the EU/EEA/SHENGEN dude - it's unbelievable how little you people know of europe. 

 

Romania and Bulgaria joined 2007 but it took till 2014 till the UK allowed them to live and work there which had nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Phulublub]

5 hours ago, luckyluke said:

That's a perspective most Britons have.

Really? where to you get this "fact" from?

 

PH

[Phulublub]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Ah the old "instead of doing a mutually beneficial deal so neither of us suffers, let's have no deal because (arguably) you'll suffer more than us" argument.

 

How mature. How productive.????

Please tell the Brexiteer crowd who keep claiming that Europe will suffer more than the UK to grow up then!

 

PH

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

Does this mean that like Tropicalevo you would have voted to stay in the EU also?

 

Does this mean you can't read?

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

Really? where to you get this "fact" from?

 

PH

An extrapolating of what I read here on T.V..

I must admit it isn't an absolute certainty.  

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You mention Boris the clown and then you write about the EU childlike behavior. Are you serious?

 

He mentioned the EU first.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

Yes the UK fishing industry, or at large the whole european fishing industry is really so irrelevant - it's like 0.1% of gdp or less.....

 

 

The real reason the UK fishing industry is so rekt is that when Brussels gave grants out in the 1980s to fishing communities they had to be matched by the governments - the british government didn't do <deleted> and left them to die, unlike all other european countries. 

 

Britain is truly the Thailand of Europe, it's always the others, whiny little <deleted> while acting like every other populist lying <deleted>. 

 

British fishing was already decimated by EEC policy before these measly grants were arranged. 

[Thingamabob]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

We joined because the government of the day was led by a convinced but lying Europhile PM who eventually won a tiny majority in the HoC. There was no referendum and by the time one happened in 1975 the British had been lied to yet again plus the bad effects of the EEC had not yet all become evident, plus, by then, it had not mutated into the mainly political monster it is today.

Entirely correct.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Proboscis said:

I too am a remainer but from a different EU country. We have always chaffed at the exceptionalism of the UK who imposed conditions on the EU that the rest of the then membership really did not want but felt they had to just to keep the UK on side. One of those conditions, a huge one, was the SIngle Market. There were many governments in the EU who were not delighted with this British invention - yes, it was the British that came up with this one, none other than Margaret Thatcher. And she pushed it until it became an integral part of EU membership. And while I never agreed with everything Thatcher did, not by a long chalk, this was a good one as it brought huge benefits to the EU.

 

The other condition that really bothered the rest of the EU members was the famous British Rebate. No other country gets that. Everyone else pays up according to the complex formula. But only the UK gets a rebate! Well, as a non-British EU citizen, you can imagine that I am not delighted with this. And one would have thought that the UK would never have left such a good deal with so much in their favour.

 

So wen you say that the EU has been milking the UK financially, I don't get it. The UK was always getting a better deal than anyone else in the EU. As regards fisheries, the UK is well-known for importing by far most of the fish that they actually consume and exporting by far most of the fish that they catch - to and from EU countries, by the way. If there is no deal, there will be tariffs on all the fish that are exported and so the EU will probably look for fish elsewhere. Retaliatory tariffs on imports of the kind of fish consumed by the British into the UK will mean the cost of fish will skyrocket.

 

No one is trying to "rape and pillage" anyone (to use your metaphor, or at least I think you take it as a metaphor!). 

 

Rubbish. Although Thatcher was initially pro the single market, she certainly did not have the influence to force it upon the EEC. The rebate was secured to bring the UK net contributions down to a reasonable level compared to other members. The UK has never had a 'better deal' than others and we are still the second highest net contributor. 

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

British fishing was already decimated by EEC policy before these measly grants were arranged. 

 

Interesting reading :

 

Fish fights: Britain has a long history of trading away access to coastal waters (theconversation.com)

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

Interesting reading :

 

Fish fights: Britain has a long history of trading away access to coastal waters (theconversation.com)

 

Not really - nothing to do with "grants in the 80's" and if you read it you will see that the problem "came from a French regulation that prevented local boats from fishing these waters between May 16 and September 30 each year".

[Proboscis]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Rubbish. Although Thatcher was initially pro the single market, she certainly did not have the influence to force it upon the EEC. The rebate was secured to bring the UK net contributions down to a reasonable level compared to other members. The UK has never had a 'better deal' than others and we are still the second highest net contributor. 

Clearly you never read your history. The Single Market was straight out of the playbook of the free-market monetarists that Thatcher thought highly of. The Europeans tended towards a more customs union (which was the status quo at the time) with restrictions and special pleadings for specific product areas and skills. I find it mighty strange that it is now the Europeans arguing for the Single Market (now that they have seen the huge economic benefit of it) and the British Conservative Party arguing for the special pleadings.

 

The British focussed on industry back then as opposed to agriculture. Because a huge amount of the EEC budget went on agriculture (Common Agriculture Policy), the UK did not benefit from that policy. It was not because of some anti-British feeling. Of course, the UK benefited hugely from other aspects of the EU, especially in export of industrial products and ultimately services. Out of all the present and former EU countries, UK benefited most from the export of services.

 

To say that the UK has been treated unfairly or was made to pay much more in proportion to what it got out of EU membership is ludricous. And lets see. Even with a deal, the UK is in for a nasty recession. Sorry to have to say that but that is the private view of British economists that I know. Without a deal, the country is in for a situation worse than 2008.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

We are far from 'alone'. We are an independent sovereign state open to trading around the world, like most countries outside the EU. 

Garbage, there are very few countries not in a trading bloc.

 

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[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Rubbish. Although Thatcher was initially pro the single market, she certainly did not have the influence to force it upon the EEC. The rebate was secured to bring the UK net contributions down to a reasonable level compared to other members. The UK has never had a 'better deal' than others and we are still the second highest net contributor. 

Because the UK has a large economy. But on a per capita basis it's not even close to 2nd

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Clearly you never read your history. The Single Market was straight out of the playbook of the free-market monetarists that Thatcher thought highly of. The Europeans tended towards a more customs union (which was the status quo at the time) with restrictions and special pleadings for specific product areas and skills. I find it mighty strange that it is now the Europeans arguing for the Single Market (now that they have seen the huge economic benefit of it) and the British Conservative Party arguing for the special pleadings.

 

The British focussed on industry back then as opposed to agriculture. Because a huge amount of the EEC budget went on agriculture (Common Agriculture Policy), the UK did not benefit from that policy. It was not because of some anti-British feeling. Of course, the UK benefited hugely from other aspects of the EU, especially in export of industrial products and ultimately services. Out of all the present and former EU countries, UK benefited most from the export of services.

 

To say that the UK has been treated unfairly or was made to pay much more in proportion to what it got out of EU membership is ludricous. And lets see. Even with a deal, the UK is in for a nasty recession. Sorry to have to say that but that is the private view of British economists that I know. Without a deal, the country is in for a situation worse than 2008.

 

Nothing to do with what I was saying, so ludicrous back at ya. Which EEC/EU countries benefitted most agriculturally and industrially?  

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because the UK has a large economy. But on a per capita basis it's not even close to 2nd

 

Per capita Germany is 3rd. UK 6th. France 9th. So what?

Edited December 2, 2020 by nauseus

[luckyluke]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Not really - nothing to do with "grants in the 80's" and if you read it you will see that the problem "came from a French regulation that prevented local boats from fishing these waters between May 16 and September 30 each year".

 

Correct,

 

but the all is an interesting read, in my opinion.

 

It gives certainly a realistic approach of the importance of this fishing thing, 

in other words : insignificant,

but nevertheless highly emotional for both parties,

 

thus  a waste of time, energy, finances, just to satisfy  both parties self-centeredness.

 

"the UK fishing industry (which includes the catching sector and all associated industries) was valued at £1.6 billion, against £1.76 trillion for the UK economy as a whole – or just under 0.1%. The UK’s trade with the EU, both import and export, stands at £615 billion a year in comparison."

[nauseus]

Just now, luckyluke said:

 

Correct,

 

but the all is an interesting read, in my opinion.

 

It gives certainly a realistic approach of the importance of this fishing thing, 

in other words : insignificant,

but nevertheless highly emotional for both parties,

 

thus  a waste of time, energy, finances, just to satisfy  both parties self-centeredness.

 

"the UK fishing industry (which includes the catching sector and all associated industries) was valued at £1.6 billion, against £1.76 trillion for the UK economy as a whole – or just under 0.1%. The UK’s trade with the EU, both import and export, stands at £615 billion a year in comparison."

 

It is far more political than emotional. Ask Macron.

[polpott]

55 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

British fishing was already decimated by EEC policy before these measly grants were arranged. 

It was decimated by the British fleet owners selling their quotas to the Spanish and French.

[mike787]

Breaking news...still stuck...will be stuck forever.

Edited December 2, 2020 by mike787

[pacovl46]

9 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

We joined because the government of the day was led by a convinced but lying Europhile PM who eventually won a tiny majority in the HoC. There was no referendum and by the time one happened in 1975 the British had been lied to yet again plus the bad effects of the EEC had not yet all become evident, plus, by then, it had not mutated into the mainly political monster it is today.

Just like they’ve been lied to by the Brexiteers this time around! ????