Foreigners who have been vaccinated still need to quarantine

[khunkarl]

21 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Indeed, I am one of them.

So am I. 

[Rumble Tumble]

On 1/1/2021 at 5:44 AM, Cobra666 said:

I am not sure if we deserve to survive as a species. 

 

 

Eq63b_4XEAMTA-3.jfif

[Rumble Tumble]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:07 AM, dbrenn said:

Australia is saying the same thing. Vaccination won't exempt you from quarantine. 

 

Not just a Thai thing. 

 

lets see how long that lasts when the Aust Government is hammered by the tourism industry for more ongoing financial support 

[Rumble Tumble]

On 1/4/2021 at 4:04 AM, khunkarl said:

Once other countries, especially in the region, starts to let people that have been vaccinated to enter without quarantine Thailand will have to follow or say goodbye to tourism forever.

 

100% correct.

[oldhippy]

......and we are back to wishfull thinking......

[dbrenn]

12 hours ago, Rumble Tumble said:

 

lets see how long that lasts when the Aust Government is hammered by the tourism industry for more ongoing financial support 

It's almost as if governments don't care about the tourist industry anymore, and that they consider it collateral damage. I'm also very surprised by this.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, dbrenn said:

It's almost as if governments don't care about the tourist industry anymore, and that they consider it collateral damage. I'm also very surprised by this.

Sure, but surely it's not surprising that in Thailand right now the priority is very serious/strong action to stop the further spread of the virus. 

[Lacessit]

16 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I'm still surprised. The statistics on the virus point to a very low infection mortality rate, little more that the flu, as evidenced by little change in excess deaths (they call it the z number) and no difference between countries that locked down and those that didn't. The consequences of lockdowns include shattered economies, mass unemployment, poverty, mental illness, increasing crime, death through illnesses that are left untreated - the list goes on.

 

What seems to be happening in the west is a reluctance to acknowledge that a terrible mistake has been made in locking places down, with politicians too embarrassed to admit how wrong they've been. They tell us that they are following 'the science', when scientists themselves tell us that the very nature of science is that it is based on experimentation and disagreement. For every doctor supporting draconian lockdowns, there are others who oppose them.

Read this, and then stop wasting people's time with the drivel you are posting.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-06/australian-nurses-describe-working-in-english-uk-hospitals/13031940

 

[dbrenn]

44 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Read this, and then stop wasting people's time with the drivel you are posting.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-06/australian-nurses-describe-working-in-english-uk-hospitals/13031940

 

The ABC is a government propaganda tool, akin to the BBC in the UK, with it's corresponding left wing narrative. I feel sorry for you if you believe everything that you see on it, dumbly accepting it as scripture, accepting without question. Here's a newspaper headline from January 6th 2018:

 

‘Hospitals have already been forced to cancel tens of thousands of operations and NHS chiefs fear things will only get worse… On Tuesday, hospitals were ordered to cancel up to 55,000 non-urgent operations and put patients in mixed-sex wards to create more room.’

 

The NHS has a ‘winter crisis’ thanks to overloaded intensive care wards, year after year. But nobody ever thought before that this could be solved by strangling the country and forbidding grandparents to hug their grandchildren. Hospital are full in some parts of the country, and patents are being transferred to other hospitals - it happens year after year.

 

And please show which of the points I made was untrue - you won't be able to.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

32 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

"...What seems to be happening in the west is a reluctance to acknowledge that a terrible mistake has been made in locking places down, with politicians too embarrassed to admit how wrong they've been..."

 

Your entitled to your opinion but it's only an opinion.

 

My opinion is that given the current situation in Thailand (and many countries) stopping the massive/growing spread my limiting travel etc., is appropriate but sure as soon as possible commerce needs to happen to keep people in jobs etc.

 

Sorry but I just don't buy your comments about low infection rate etc. Is that's true how come many countries in Europe, USA and more have enormous death numbers? 

Where are these enormous death numbers? The UK, for example, quotes a COVID death as anyone who has tested positive for COVID in the 28 days prior, regardless of what other health problems they may have. You'll fine that a lot of these are in nursing homes, with various comorbidities. If, for example, someone who has terminal cancer and has been given weeks to live, dies having tested positive for COVID, then was it cancer or COVID that killed them?

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Where are these enormous death numbers? The UK, for example, quotes a COVID death as anyone who has tested positive for COVID in the 28 days prior, regardless of what other health problems they may have. You'll fine that a lot of these are in nursing homes, with various comorbidities. If, for example, someone who has terminal cancer and has been given weeks to live, dies having tested positive for COVID, then was it cancer or COVID that killed them?

It's not easy, but right now, we don't fully understand this virus.  And I don't think your example is right.  In the end, the number of cases and deaths are under reported in almost every country.  With many not even taking the time to classify them.  We just don't know...

[Bluedan]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

I'm still surprised. The statistics on the virus point to a very low infection mortality rate, little more that the flu, as evidenced by little change in excess deaths (they call it the z number) and no difference between countries that locked down and those that didn't. The consequences of lockdowns include shattered economies, mass unemployment, poverty, mental illness, increasing crime, death through illnesses that are left untreated - the list goes on.

 

What seems to be happening in the west is a reluctance to acknowledge that a terrible mistake has been made in locking places down, with politicians too embarrassed to admit how wrong they've been. They tell us that they are following 'the science', when scientists themselves tell us that the very nature of science is that it is based on experimentation and disagreement. For every doctor supporting draconian lockdowns, there are others who oppose them.

I think thats a great summary.

 

But since when did politicians admit a mistake, especially one of this magnitude? Same seems to apply to the scientists advising them. Neil Ferguson of the imperial college and whom the UK govt has relied upon  is famous for his gross errors in estimating the spread and mortality of other virus in the past has stuck to his guns. He estimated 500,00 deaths in UK and 80,000 in Sweden. 

 

What has amazed me is the marginalization and censorship of genuine dissenting opinion.

[Bluedan]

17 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

It's not easy, but right now, we don't fully understand this virus.  And I don't think your example is right.  In the end, the number of cases and deaths are under reported in almost every country.  With many not even taking the time to classify them.  We just don't know...

I respectfully disagree. I also think deaths are over reported. The  criteria for classifying death in UK are as stated, a positive test within 28 days of death...that applies regardless of the actual cause as in the cancer example. In the US even without a test, CDC has mandated that if it appears to be COVID then its classified as such.

[Jeffr2]

42 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

I respectfully disagree. I also think deaths are over reported. The  criteria for classifying death in UK are as stated, a positive test within 28 days of death...that applies regardless of the actual cause as in the cancer example. In the US even without a test, CDC has mandated that if it appears to be COVID then its classified as such.

Sorry, but you are wrong.  Most countries admit they are under counting. Especially in the early days of the pandemic.  And in Africa?  right...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/02/world/africa/africa-coronavirus-deaths-underreporting.html

A Continent Where the Dead Are Not Counted

 

All 54 African countries put together have registered fewer Covid deaths than France. That doesn’t mean people aren’t dying from the virus.

[Rimmer]

A misleading post and a reply has been removed, please again see the following pinned notice:

 

 

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[Bluedan]

26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sorry, but you are wrong.  Most countries admit they are under counting. Especially in the early days of the pandemic.  And in Africa?  right...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/02/world/africa/africa-coronavirus-deaths-underreporting.html

A Continent Where the Dead Are Not Counted

 

All 54 African countries put together have registered fewer Covid deaths than France. That doesn’t mean people aren’t dying from the virus.

that's proof that I am wrong ? An article in the NY times and less deaths registered overall, versus actual facts as to how COVID deaths are classified ?

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

that's proof that I am wrong ? An article in the NY times and less deaths registered overall, versus actual facts as to how COVID deaths are classified ?

Ummm...you said they were over counted.  I showed you an entire content that is not really reporting at all.  Get it?

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/about-30-covid-deaths-may-not-be-classified-such

About 30% of COVID deaths may not be classified as such

[Bluedan]

52 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Ummm...you said they were over counted.  I showed you an entire content that is not really reporting at all.  Get it?

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/about-30-covid-deaths-may-not-be-classified-such

About 30% of COVID deaths may not be classified as such

I read it all and I get it ...as far as I can see the claims of under counting are all based on assumptions ....as I said not proof 

whereas the over counting ....deaths with COVID being classified as deaths from COVID seems without any contradiction

happy to be proven wrong 

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

I read it all and I get it ...as far as I can see the claims of under counting are all based on assumptions ....as I said not proof 

whereas the over counting ....deaths with COVID being classified as deaths from COVID seems without any contradiction

happy to be proven wrong 

Assumptions?  So, no reporting at all from perhaps 50 countries is based on assumptions?  Seriously?  Come on...

 

OK.  Show me a credible article...credible...that says CV19 deaths are over reported.

[shdmn]

Well at least they are looking at it which is a good sign.  So when they see the death rates going down as more and more people get vaccinated hopefully they will start to open things up. 

 

I'm a bit concerned that the quarantine hotel thing is turning into something of a profit center.  So there is incentive to keep that gravy train going.

[Bluedan]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Assumptions?  So, no reporting at all from perhaps 50 countries is based on assumptions?  Seriously?  Come on...

 

OK.  Show me a credible article...credible...that says CV19 deaths are over reported.

I am also making assumptions based on the classifying criteria. I dint have proof that the deaths are over reported I assume it from the circumstantial evidence (death classification criteria)..The reporting from those counties relates to excess deaths and unreported deaths ...that doesn't  mean that they are COVID or not COVID deaths. 

 

I have read and seen similar articles and videos claiming the opposite ...ie death with COVID is recorded as Death from COVID. 

in both cases there is no proof one way of another just assumptions based on circumstantial evidence 

 

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Bluedan said:

I am also making assumptions based on the classifying criteria. I dint have proof that the deaths are over reported I assume it from the circumstantial evidence (death classification criteria)..The reporting from those counties relates to excess deaths and unreported deaths ...that doesn't  mean that they are COVID or not COVID deaths. 

 

I have read and seen similar articles and videos claiming the opposite ...ie death with COVID is recorded as Death from COVID. 

in both cases there is no proof one way of another just assumptions based on circumstantial evidence 

 

Assumptions...figures.  Get the facts.  From reliable sources.  Social media doesn't cut it.

[Bluedan]

9 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Assumptions...figures.  Get the facts.  From reliable sources.  Social media doesn't cut it.

I gave you the facts look it up

I base my opinion on the methodology of classification of deaths in UK and USA, thats not from social media 

you gave me an article from NYT seems pretty arrogant to class that as fact and dismiss anything not mainstream as not cutting it

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Bluedan said:

I gave you the facts look it up

I base my opinion on the methodology of classification of deaths in UK and USA, thats not from social media 

you gave me an article from NYT seems pretty arrogant to class that as fact and dismiss anything not mainstream as not cutting it

You've given me nothing but your assumptions.  Give me some facts to back it up.  Proven facts, not assumptions.  I gave you a great research article.  You dismissed it.

 

You seem fixated on fake news from social media.  If not, post your facts here!!

[Bluedan]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You've given me nothing but your assumptions.  Give me some facts to back it up.  Proven facts, not assumptions.  I gave you a great research article.  You dismissed it.

 

You seem fixated on fake news from social media.  If not, post your facts here!!

I didn't dismiss it I disagree with the conclusions due to the assessment methods used for determining death by COVID and I stated its circumstantial evidence not proof maybe thats a bit hard for you to understand so I have posted an article detailing the methodology below. Anyone testing positive within 28 days of death is deemed to be a COVID death

Quote

 

 

how do you know what I read and listen to? again height of arrogance to assume what you read is credible media and that what I read is fake news

 

as I said in any case the classification methods are not on social media 

 

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/08/12/behind-the-headlines-counting-covid-19-deaths/

 

 

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

I didn't dismiss it I disagree with the conclusions due to the assessment methods used for determining death by COVID and I stated its circumstantial evidence not proof maybe thats a bit hard for you to understand so I have posted an article detailing the methodology below. Anyone testing positive within 28 days of death is deemed to be a COVID death

 

how do you know what I read and listen to? again height of arrogance to assume what you read is credible media and that what I read is fake news

 

as I said in any case the classification methods are not on social media 

 

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/08/12/behind-the-headlines-counting-covid-19-deaths/

 

 

Your link lays it out well.  Not sure why you are so confused?

 

Quote

A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma).

 

You said you've seen lots of videos.  Most videos are on social media and most are fake or conspiracy theories.

 

[SupermarineS6B]

8 hours ago, dbrenn said:

The ABC is a government propaganda tool, akin to the BBC in the UK, with it's corresponding left wing narrative. I feel sorry for you if you believe everything that you see on it, dumbly accepting it as scripture, accepting without question. Here's a newspaper headline from January 6th 2018:

 

‘Hospitals have already been forced to cancel tens of thousands of operations and NHS chiefs fear things will only get worse… On Tuesday, hospitals were ordered to cancel up to 55,000 non-urgent operations and put patients in mixed-sex wards to create more room.’

 

The NHS has a ‘winter crisis’ thanks to overloaded intensive care wards, year after year. But nobody ever thought before that this could be solved by strangling the country and forbidding grandparents to hug their grandchildren. Hospital are full in some parts of the country, and patents are being transferred to other hospitals - it happens year after year.

 

And please show which of the points I made was untrue - you won't be able to.

I read the ABC propaganda drivel but i mistakenly thought it was a weekly snowflake journal for those in need of a hug and a good cry........ What a croc......  

[Bluedan]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Your link lays it out well.  Not sure why you are so confused?

 

 

You said you've seen lots of videos.  Most videos are on social media and most are fake or conspiracy theories.

 

the link confirms that a person who tests positive to COVID within 28 days of death is classified as a COVID death...where is the confusion? Since the first post on this topic I said my basis for believing there is an overestimate is due to this method of classification which surely means that people dying primarily from other causes are still classified as a COVID death. Couldn't be clearer

 

"Most videos are on social media and most are fake or conspiracy theories." Sorry I think thats a ridiculous generalization which you are surely not qualified to make. And you think NYT and other mainstream media outlets have no bias and don't get things wrong? From memory the NYT lapped up the weapons of mass destruction fraud as a basis for the Iraq war. I really object to this view that you have to go with mainstream or you are a <deleted> conspiracy theorist. Many of us can read and evaluate opinions on both sides and reach an informed conclusion. I am truly alarmed by the degree of censorship and marginalization of  scientists who don't agree with the mainstream agenda. 

 

anyway enjoyed the civilized debate with no name calling (so far) I'm off to cook dinner

 

[CharlieH]

Reported posts removed.

[dbrenn]

17 hours ago, Bluedan said:

that's proof that I am wrong ? An article in the NY times and less deaths registered overall, versus actual facts as to how COVID deaths are classified ?

Facts don't seem to make any difference, here or anywhere else. 

 

A case of mass hysteria.