Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[vogie]

4 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Yes, like I said: you made that up. But what’s right for you isn’t something the Scottish people need to care about. 
 

 

 

You still don't know the difference between the Scots and the SNP, the SNP doesn't respect the democratic referendum the North of the United Kingdom had. 

[sharksy]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I never said that the withdrawal of Scotland from the UK is off the table. Clearly it is seen as a preferable option by the majority. You may disbelieve the polls (the very basis for your particular thread) but we will see soon enough. 

 

As for building a better UK, that's the fundamental issue - i don't see any prospect of a UK government wanting to do that. It seems I am not alone in that observation. 

Boris has been looking into joining Scotland up with Northern Ireland (Bridge or more likely, tunnel) which is at odds with your statement above.
It is doubtful whether Scotland alone would be able to do this, at least, not for a looooong time.

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by sharksy

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

Boris has been looking into joining Scotland up with Northern Ireland (Bridge or more likely, tunnel) which is at odds with your statement above.
It is doubtful whether Scotland alone would be able to do this, at least, not for a looooong time.

 

 

 

Well, his track record in this area is not too encouraging, is it? He couldn't join one side of London to the other across a couple of hundred metres of relatively shallow river. How do you think he is going to manage with the Irish sea?

 

Of course, his primary goal with his garden bridge, the transferring of £50 million of public money into private bank accounts, was still achieved so not a total failure for him. 

 

But you are assuming that this proposed tunnel would be a priority for a Scottish government, some sort of game changer. Personally, it would not be top of my list of infrastructure projects. The money could be far better spent elsewhere, but probably not leaky enough for our PM. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

You still don't know the difference between the Scots and the SNP, the SNP doesn't respect the democratic referendum the North of the United Kingdom had. 

 

Do you see the irony of bleating about not respecting democracy, then demanding that the democratic process not be respected? 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Do you see the irony of bleating about not respecting democracy, then demanding that the democratic process not be respected? 

No not at all, can we all have your version of it please.

 

And would it at all be possible for you to return a reply without adding patronizing words like "bleating" and "hissy fit" etc.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

You still don't know the difference between the Scots and the SNP,

I do. 
 

Quote

the SNP doesn't respect the democratic referendum the North of the United Kingdom had. 

I don’t know, I doubt it, but it’s pretty irrelevant. The point is that it’s not some Englander’s business what and when and how often and how the Scottish people decide, even if those Englanders call their opinion “democracy”.
 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by welovesundaysatspace

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I do. 
 

I don’t know, I doubt it, but it’s pretty irrelevant. The point is that it’s not some Englander’s business what and when and how often and how the Scottish people decide, even if those Englanders call their opinion “democracy”.
 

 

 

 

Again you need to educate yourself, to use the phrase Englanders just shows how far out of touch with reality you have drifted. We are all members of the United Kingdom and as such anything that affects the United Kingdom is very much a concern of the rest of the UK.

Did your fondness for the Nationalist party in Scotland come after the Brexit vote perchance?

[RuamRudy]

42 minutes ago, vogie said:

No not at all, can we all have your version of it please.

 

And would it at all be possible for you to return a reply without adding patronizing words like "bleating" and "hissy fit" etc.

 

My definition of democracy is worthless. Its the generally accepted notion that carries weight. Here is the intro paragraph from Wikipedia:

 

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, dēmokratiā, from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislators. The decisions on who is considered part of the people and how authority is shared among or delegated by the people have changed over time and at different speeds in different countries, but they have included more and more of the inhabitants of all countries. Cornerstones include freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.

 

I don't see anything there about being unable to reconsider past decisions or only one side of a debate being bound to honour an agreement. 

 

So I repeat my earlier question - do you not see the blatant inconsistency on your argument? 

 

Apologies if I upset your sensibilities with my choice of adjectives and verbs. Given the tone of many of the posts you enthuse over, I assumed that you weren't overly concerned about the sensitivities of others. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

We are all members of the United Kingdom and as such anything that affects the United Kingdom is very much a concern of the rest of the UK.

Definitely, of course some little Englanders want to force the Scottish to remain in their failing union. It’s independence the Scottish people want, after all; independence from little Englanders and being their “concern”.
 

Nothing the Scottish people need to care about. Imagine the Polish or Greek had told you that “we are all members of the EU and as such anything that affects the EU is very much a concern of the rest of the EU.”

 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

My definition of democracy is worthless. Its the generally accepted notion that carries weight. Here is the intro paragraph from Wikipedia:

 

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, dēmokratiā, from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislators. The decisions on who is considered part of the people and how authority is shared among or delegated by the people have changed over time and at different speeds in different countries, but they have included more and more of the inhabitants of all countries. Cornerstones include freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.

 

I don't see anything there about being unable to reconsider past decisions or only one side of a debate being bound to honour an agreement. 

 

So I repeat my earlier question - do you not see the blatant inconsistency on your argument? 

 

Apologies if I upset your sensibilities with my choice of adjectives and verbs. Given the tone of many of the posts you enthuse over, I assumed that you weren't overly concerned about the sensitivities of others. 

You haven't upset my sensibilities, as someone from Yorkshire with a military background that would take a lot of doing, however when debating sometimes it is better not to use unnecessary Rue De Remarques. But it is my observation of you that 4 years ago you were so articulate in your posting when you thought that all was tickety boo in your party of disassemble, now it looks like your party has been split apart more than an old oak log chopped for the fire.

 

Sorry RR, things are not looking good for you, things are changing, there is no doubt that the SNP will do well in the elections, it would seem that the worse they become, the more popular they become. But seperation is the last thing on Scottish minds at the moment, not that it would make any difference anyway, Boris has said no. By the looks of it the Scots are losing faith in the SNP and not before time may I add.

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Definitely, of course some little Englanders want to force the Scottish to remain in their failing union. It’s independence the Scottish people want, after all; independence from little Englanders and being their “concern”.
 

Nothing the Scottish people need to care about. Imagine the Polish or Greek had told you that “we are all members of the EU and as such anything that affects the EU is very much a concern of the rest of the EU.”

 

 

Do you support all forms of Nationalism?

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

You haven't upset my sensibilities, as someone from Yorkshire with a military background that would take a lot of doing, however when debating sometimes it is better not to use unnecessary Rue De Remarques. But it is my observation of you that 4 years ago you were so articulate in your posting when you thought that all was tickety boo in your party of disassemble, now it looks like your party has been split apart more than an old oak log chopped for the fire.

 

Sorry RR, things are not looking good for you, things are changing, there is no doubt that the SNP will do well in the elections, it would seem that the worse they become, the more popular they become. But seperation is the last thing on Scottish minds at the moment, not that it would make any difference anyway, Boris has said no. By the looks of it the Scots are losing faith in the SNP and not before time may I add.

 

 

Thanks for telling me what's on my mind, Vogie. I am sure all of Scotland is grateful for you for correcting them on what they are actually thinking. 

 

Good to see, however, that the only real argument is that Johnson says no. That's definitely going to appease the Scots, I am sure. Possibly you could tell us how we will think in that regard too? 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Thanks for telling me what's on my mind, Vogie. I am sure all of Scotland is grateful for you for correcting them on what they are actually thinking. 

 

Good to see, however, that the only real argument is that Johnson says no. That's definitely going to appease the Scots, I am sure. Possibly you could tell us how we will think in that regard too? 

We know what they're thinking because we asked them in 2014.

 

55% wanted to stay.

 

Some dodgy opinion poll based on a couple of hundred people in a Tesco carpark changes nothing. You should respect the wishes of your countrymen, it seems they knew better than your vitriolic nationalist minority.

[welovesundaysatspace]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you support all forms of Nationalism?

Apparently the only “Nationalism” you support is Brexit. 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Thanks for telling me what's on my mind, Vogie. I am sure all of Scotland is grateful for you for correcting them on what they are actually thinking. 

 

Good to see, however, that the only real argument is that Johnson says no. That's definitely going to appease the Scots, I am sure. Possibly you could tell us how we will think in that regard too? 

You speak for the SNP and not the Scots, the Scots are losing patience with Mrs Macbeth.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Apparently the only “Nationalism” you support is Brexit. 

I asked you a question, if you don't want to answer, I fully understand.????

[welovesundaysatspace]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You should respect the wishes of your countrymen, it seems they knew better than your vitriolic nationalist minority.

Like you respected the wishes of your countrymen when you wanted another EU referendum ???? 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I asked you a question, if you don't want to answer, I fully understand.????

I answered your question, and I’m glad you finally understand. ???? 

[vogie]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

I answered your question, and I’m glad you finally understand. ???? 

Well do you support nasty Nationalism or not, or is it a case that you think that Nationalism is the lesser of the two evils if we include the English?

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

You speak for the SNP and not the Scots, the Scots are losing patience with Mrs Macbeth.

 

I don't speak for anyone but myself, and certainly not the SNP, a party I was last a member of 25 years ago. 

 

Some Scots may be losing patience with her, but the majority don't seem to be getting your message. You need to tell them more forcibly what they think. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

47 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We know what they're thinking because we asked them in 2014.

 

55% wanted to stay.

 

Some dodgy opinion poll based on a couple of hundred people in a Tesco carpark changes nothing. You should respect the wishes of your countrymen, it seems they knew better than your vitriolic nationalist minority.

 

This seems a difficult concept for some people here to grasp, and possibly explains why WW2 was brought up by so many Brexiteers, but democracy didn't stop in 2014 just because it suited you. 

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I don't speak for anyone but myself, and certainly not the SNP, a party I was last a member of 25 years ago. 

 

Some Scots may be losing patience with her, but the majority don't seem to be getting your message. You need to tell them more forcibly what they think. 

 

 

I think that the SNPs record in all those graphs are for the fairys, would it be fair to say that under the SNP all those services have suffered immensely.

 

"SHAMELESS POLL MANIPULATION. Last week @TheScotsman reported that 47% of Scots would vote for 'independence'. They didn't tell you that *among those likely to vote* 46% said NO to 42% YES. Great find by @SteveSayersOne."

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

think that the SNPs record in all those graphs are for the fairys, would it be fair to say that under the SNP all those services have suffered immensely

 

That could be one interpretation, however it would be very hard to explain the ongoing popularity of the SNP if it were true. 14 years in government and still head and shoulders above the opposition yet they are failing in their remit? What are we, masochists? 

 

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

"SHAMELESS POLL MANIPULATION. Last week @TheScotsman reported that 47% of Scots would vote for 'independence'. They didn't tell you that *among those likely to vote* 46% said NO to 42% YES. Great find by @SteveSayersOne."

 

For one who puts no faith in polls, you seem to have perked up with this one. I would wash your hands after going anywhere near Steve Sayers. He has some rather dubious hobbies. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

54 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well do you support nasty Nationalism or not, or is it a case that you think that Nationalism is the lesser of the two evils if we include the English?

As I wrote above: I support the Scottish people in their cause same as the British people had their Brexit vote. If you consider that “nasty Nationalism” then I guess we both support nasty Nationalism according to your definition. 

[JonnyF]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

This seems a difficult concept for some people here to grasp, and possibly explains why WW2 was brought up by so many Brexiteers, but democracy didn't stop in 2014 just because it suited you. 

 

Neither can you keep running Referendums every time the wind changes direction, simply because you lost.

 

You had your chance and you blew it. With the SNP self destructing and the advantages of Brexit being seen so clearly with the vaccine rollout, I'd say you've missed the boat. Maybe better to accept it and drop this folly of an isolationist Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Neither can you keep running Referendums every time the wind changes direction, simply because you lost.

 

You had your chance and you blew it. With the SNP self destructing and the advantages of Brexit being seen so clearly with the vaccine rollout, I'd say you've missed the boat. Maybe better to accept it and drop this folly of an isolationist Scotland.

 

Have you reversed your opinion? In your eyes, are we no longer an insignificant and historically bitter people who you would be glad to see the back of? 

 

Wishing to join a successful and respected union of 27 other nations is hardly isolationist; having the second highest covid death rate in the world is nothing to be proud of. 

 

And Brexit still seems only to be successful in the eyes of those who backed it. 

[Patong2021]

On 1/14/2021 at 7:09 AM, Psimbo said:

Well they can get their MPs out of Westminster while they are at it. Now they have their own Parliament <deleted> are they still doing in Westminster anyway? Talk about having your cake and eating it.

 

'We want independence but want back in the EU where we will do what we are told'. Anybody else spot that oxymoron?

 

They HAD a referendum and it was defeated. Are we now in a world where we keep having referenda until the 'right' result is achieved? 

What a nonsensical argument.

With this reasoning,  Australians, and Canadians  should not have federal MPs because of their  territorial/state/provincial legislatures.  Americans should not have federal representation because there are state legislatures.   Do take the time to  learn about the division of powers.

 

Holyrood is responsible for; agriculture, forestry and fisheries; education and training; environment, health and social services; housing; law and order; local government; sport and the arts; tourism and economic development and many aspects of transport. It also is responsible for borrowing,  specified taxes including full control of stamp duty land tax. 

 

The  MPS  Scotland sends to Westminister  are responsible for; benefits and social security; immigration; defence; foreign policy; employment; broadcasting; trade and industry; nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity; consumer rights; data protection and the Constitution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Patong2021

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Neither can you keep running Referendums every time the wind changes direction, simply because you lost.

Of course you can. You do it every four years and you did it with your EU membership. When you claim “you cannot” what you actually want to say is “we don’t want you to”. 
 

Quote

You had your chance and you blew it. With the SNP self destructing and the advantages of Brexit being seen so clearly with the vaccine rollout, I'd say you've missed the boat. Maybe better to accept it and drop this folly of an isolationist Scotland.

I love how arrogantly delusional you Brexiteers are. If “the advantages of Brexit” weren’t so poor you wouldn’t be so afraid to let the Scottish people vote as they wish. You can see your little England fall apart and that’s why you need to force your fleeing member states in ???? 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by welovesundaysatspace

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Of course you can. You do it every four years and you did it with your EU membership. When you claim “you cannot” what you actually want to say is “we don’t want you to”. 
 

 

What are you talking about? We didn't have a referendum on leaving the EU every 4 years. We had one to join the EEC in 1975 and one to leave the EU in 2016, 41 years later.

 

I'd be happy to adhere to such a precedent and give Scotland another vote to leave in 2055. 

[vogie]

40 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That could be one interpretation, however it would be very hard to explain the ongoing popularity of the SNP if it were true. 14 years in government and still head and shoulders above the opposition yet they are failing in their remit? What are we, masochists? 

 

 

For one who puts no faith in polls, you seem to have perked up with this one. I would wash your hands after going anywhere near Steve Sayers. He has some rather dubious hobbies. 

I don't have any faith in polls, but I know you stand by them, especially when they give you the answer you so desperately seek. You cannot keep making excuses just because they don't tally with your party line.