Buying a house for your wife/ partner with protection

[digibum]

20 hours ago, billd766 said:

Because I trust my wife of 20 years. We have known each other since 1993 and she has had plenty of time to rip me off if she wanted to.

 

Part of marriage is trust. You each have to trust the other. If you cannot, then don't marry or keep everything in your name and most likely the marriage will die a death at some time.

 

Honesty is another part. 

It’s not about trust.  
 

What if your wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow?   
 

Even if she’s willed you the property, you can’t own it.  You have something like 1 year to dispose of the property.  
 

Maybe in Bangkok, with a robust secondary market, you can get market value for the property. But if you’re out in the boonies, everyone that knows the position that you’re in will try to prison rape you on the price knowing you have to sell.  
 

The plan my wife and I came up with was to do either a lease or a usufruct and if she dies before me, I’ll sell the property to one of her family for 1 baht in exchange for a new 30 year lease, which should be longer than my lifetime as long as my wife doesn’t die anytime soon.  LOL.  
 

I originally proposed something like that to my wife many years ago when we were talking about buying a house.  
 

100% she thought I didn’t trust her.   Haha.  So I dropped it and we didn’t end up buying anyway so it didn’t matter.  

 

But a few years later, she suggested it to me after talking to some of her friends who have done it similarly.  
 

So, ultimately, it’s not about not trusting your wife, it’s about estate planning and not being forced into a situation where you’re going to get screwed.  

[The Man Who Sold the World]

Well – let’s amplify this ridiculous pissing contest. 

 

Reference section 1469 in the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/59-usufruct-in-thailand/4-can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

 

When the usufruct is registered with the land office it is in essence not a contract that can be terminated by your wife.

Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by the civil and commercial code book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS. This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate the usufruct your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. 

 

 

Anyway – a point of order, we are discussing in English language the administration of Thai Law, which is written in the Thai Language, advocated by Thai Attorneys and adjudicated by Thai courts of law.

 

Nobody that has chimed in on this thread is able to provide a formal credible legal opinion concerning Usufructs, or any other part of the Thai legal system.

 

Now, for the record, I paid for formal legal protection by a real live licensed and practicing Thai Real Estate Attorney who spends a good portion of his time in Thai courts of law. 

 

It was money well spent and I am as protected as I can be.

 

 

[ChipButty]

On 1/15/2021 at 2:38 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Usufruct.

Is that still legal in Thailand? 

[RocketDog]

I bought my house and then made a will to give it to my Thai lady when I pass. My Thai lawyer holds the will in his vault and she has a copy. The land is a 99 year lease. That's long enough for both of us to enjoy it. After that I don't care. 

 

Essentially she has zero way to own the house until I die, and I can change the will at any time so she has a reason to keep me happy. 

 

Why does this subject seem so complicated to so many expats?

 

And don't start about her hiring people to kill me. That's just nonsense. Any process you use to transfer on death potentially carries this risk. Life is full of risks. 

 

 

[The Man Who Sold the World]

16 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Why does this subject seem so complicated to so many expats?

RocketDog - you are well protected. My LWTs and POAs (Thai and American) are in place. Leasing was my first option but was not allowed by Nonthaburi Land Office. Hence the Usufruct.  

 

The subject is complicated because posters use forums, not lawyers, for legal advice. You get what you pay for and this forums advice if free. 

 

Your LWTs and lease, my LWTs and Usufruct are properly completed and registered full legal documents. We are as safe as we can be. 

 

Yea, I certainly ain't looking over my shoulder in fear of a hired assassin. In a word "ludicrous". 

 

[RocketDog]

2 minutes ago, The Man Who Sold the World said:

RocketDog - you are well protected. My LWTs and POAs (Thai and American) are in place. Leasing was my first option but was not allowed by Nonthaburi Land Office. Hence the Usufruct.  

 

The subject is complicated because posters use forums, not lawyers, for legal advice. You get what you pay for and this forums advice if free. 

 

Your LWTs and lease, my LWTs and Usufruct are properly completed and registered full legal documents. We are as safe as we can be. 

 

Yea, I certainly ain't looking over my shoulder in fear of a hired assassin. In a word "ludicrous". 

 

Exactly right. I paid 50,000฿ for legal help buying the house and leasing the land in  English/Thai (with a final clause that English wording prevails in any dispute) and 10,000 for a detailed English/Thai LWT. I have a separate LWT in America for my assets there with a clause to give more cash to my Thai Lady. 

 

I sleep well at night. 

I'm forced to buy a lot of Chinese junk here but drew the line on legal issues. 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, The Man Who Sold the World said:

Nobody that has chimed in on this thread is able to provide a formal credible legal opinion concerning Usufructs, or any other part of the Thai legal system.

Then you should stop posting your opinion and start posting facts, as I did with the law.

I tried to look this up on Google (usufruct + section 1469), but a usufruct between married people is obviously only something foreigners would do, so a quite rare case and I didn't find anything specific.

But what shows up are supreme court cases where one Thai spouse transferred property to his/her spouse, and later wanted this reversed (a few of them are listed here: https://www.peesirilaw.com/index.php?lay=boardshow&ac=webboard_show&WBntype=1&No=1219631 )

The supreme court's opinion is that this property transfer can be reversed because it falls under section 1469.

 

Thailand Civil and Commercial Code section 1469 says that any agreement (in regards to assets/property) between wife and husband can be canceled by any party. You think this doesn't apply for usufructs because some Thai lawyer told you so? (If he had told you the truth, you would probably not have paid him 50k).

As explained above, even a property transfer can be reversed under 1469. It's basically 100% certain that a usufruct can be cancelled as well. Congratulations to paying 50k for a worthless peace of paper.

Edited January 16, 2021 by jackdd

[The Man Who Sold the World]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Congratulations

Your welcome

[billd766]

3 hours ago, digibum said:

It’s not about trust.  
 

What if your wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow?   
 

Even if she’s willed you the property, you can’t own it.  You have something like 1 year to dispose of the property.  
 

Maybe in Bangkok, with a robust secondary market, you can get market value for the property. But if you’re out in the boonies, everyone that knows the position that you’re in will try to prison rape you on the price knowing you have to sell.  
 

The plan my wife and I came up with was to do either a lease or a usufruct and if she dies before me, I’ll sell the property to one of her family for 1 baht in exchange for a new 30 year lease, which should be longer than my lifetime as long as my wife doesn’t die anytime soon.  LOL.  
 

I originally proposed something like that to my wife many years ago when we were talking about buying a house.  
 

100% she thought I didn’t trust her.   Haha.  So I dropped it and we didn’t end up buying anyway so it didn’t matter.  

 

But a few years later, she suggested it to me after talking to some of her friends who have done it similarly.  
 

So, ultimately, it’s not about not trusting your wife, it’s about estate planning and not being forced into a situation where you’re going to get screwed.  

If my wife dies then the house and land go to our son and I can still live here.

[ThaiSpaceNeedle]

On 1/15/2021 at 6:00 AM, Thailand said:

Yes, you can set up a 30 year + o lease from the house owner (wife/girlfriend) .

You will also have your name on the chanot.

This is correct. I have a 30 year lease on our land/townhouse. Name's on the chanot as well. I always bring a copy for yearly extension and they always take it. We also had to specify the monthly rate and was told that 100thb was the least amount, so that's what we did. Surprisingly, this was all recommended by my mother-in-law to make me feel secure.

 

** a little off topic, but...does anyone know if my lease can be used as a proof or residence for renewing my driver's license?

[ThaiSpaceNeedle]

6 hours ago, ThaiSpaceNeedle said:

This is correct. I have a 30 year lease on our land/townhouse. Name's on the chanot as well. I always bring a copy for yearly extension and they always take it. We also had to specify the monthly rate and was told that 100thb was the least amount, so that's what we did. Surprisingly, this was all recommended by my mother-in-law to make me feel secure.

 

** a little off topic, but...does anyone know if my lease can be used as a proof or residence for renewing my driver's license?

and to add...I see some mention above of 30k-50k to have this done. I don't remember what I spent, but it couldn't have been more than a thousand baht or so to do ourselves at the little district office. Good you're doing some research before you jump to an agent or lawyer who will overcharge you for something you can do on your own. Isn't that why we're all here?

[talahtnut]

You should not be marrying a woman if you are preparing to get the boot from her.

A real husband implies looking after her needs first and foremost..unconditionally.

[473geo]

24 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

You should not be marrying a woman if you are preparing to get the boot from her.

A real husband implies looking after her needs first and foremost..unconditionally.

Agree I paid for modest house for my wife and children, my wife had it built, within the budget, she consulted with me but managed all.

Never been into possessions, nothing I buy in Thailand is 'mine', never troubled me, never will

[petermik]

13 hours ago, 473geo said:

Agree I paid for modest house for my wife and children, my wife had it built, within the budget, she consulted with me but managed all.

Never been into possessions, nothing I buy in Thailand is 'mine', never troubled me, never will

My TGF gave up a well paid job in a BKK hospital 7 years ago to live with me in Pattaya...I do not nor ever will give her a monthly "salary" but after we had been together for a year I decided to have a house built on land down south near to her only direct relative..older brother..she never asked for this I did it solely to provide some security for her in the future...cost me 1.3 million baht (£25k) and we visit every month...as 473geo states similar above it is money I can afford to walk away from if needs be....we are still together and as happy as we were when we first met.... if in the future for whatever reason she wished to leave I would wish her well and move on to another chapter in my life

[chrisandsu]

7 hours ago, 473geo said:

Agree I paid for modest house for my wife and children, my wife had it built, within the budget, she consulted with me but managed all.

Never been into possessions, nothing I buy in Thailand is 'mine', never troubled me, never will

My wife and I have bought all of our houses and land together with both of us working and the money going into the same pot . All of it in the end will go to our kids . Why can’t normal relationships work like this ? I get the argument for your kids security but what about the guys who have no kids other then some step children ? I have met many guys who have uprooted from their home country leaving their own flesh and blood and taking all the inheritance and plonking it in a strangers name and expecting it to work out . It’s mental at best .

[473geo]

44 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

My wife and I have bought all of our houses and land together with both of us working and the money going into the same pot . All of it in the end will go to our kids . Why can’t normal relationships work like this ? I get the argument for your kids security but what about the guys who have no kids other then some step children ? I have met many guys who have uprooted from their home country leaving their own flesh and blood and taking all the inheritance and plonking it in a strangers name and expecting it to work out . It’s mental at best .

We get by with my wife being the home maker, 15 years now, she has no need to go out to work, I prefer she is at home caring for the children, she 'works' way harder than the wives you speak of who have no children, right now she is schooling at home teaching kids in the wider family to read and write, she runs the farm, I would have it no other way. Being a miserable pessimist, or somebody who feels unless a wife is out working life is not normal, is not my way of conducting life. I am proud of the fact that I can take care of my wife, I enjoy doing so.

Sure there are those who marry in haste, there are everywhere in the world, just as there are relationships that don't work out, most likely because people had fixed and pre-concieved ideas of what a marriage should entail.

I'm just lucky I guess, I don't need to 'own' half a house, saves my wife going out to earn the legal fees for a usufruct - right?

[chrisandsu]

10 minutes ago, 473geo said:

We get by with my wife being the home maker, 15 years now, she has no need to go out to work, I prefer she is at home caring for the children, she 'works' way harder than the wives you speak of who have no children, right now she is schooling at home teaching kids in the wider family to read and write, she runs the farm, I would have it no other way. Being a miserable pessimist, or somebody who feels unless a wife is out working life is not normal, is not my way of conducting life. I am proud of the fact that I can take care of my wife, I enjoy doing so.

Sure there are those who marry in haste, there are everywhere in the world, just as there are relationships that don't work out, most likely because people had fixed and pre-concieved ideas of what a marriage should entail.

I'm just lucky I guess, I don't need to 'own' half a house, saves my wife going out to earn the legal fees for a usufruct - right?

As has already been discussed numerous times on here a usufruct is useless when you are married . And even more useless when you live on the in-laws farm . Where I live 2 incomes are the norm ,stay at home mums are a thing of the past but I guess you could do that cheaply living in the boonies .although  She’s still in the same position as without your money she is not independent . If that works for you guys fair play to you , but I’d rather my wife could stand on her own two feet and keep building generational wealth without me if something was to happen . I guess no two stories are the same 

[madmen]

23 minutes ago, 473geo said:

We get by with my wife being the home maker, 15 years now, she has no need to go out to work, I prefer she is at home caring for the children, she 'works' way harder than the wives you speak of who have no children, right now she is schooling at home teaching kids in the wider family to read and write, she runs the farm, I would have it no other way. Being a miserable pessimist, or somebody who feels unless a wife is out working life is not normal, is not my way of conducting life. I am proud of the fact that I can take care of my wife, I enjoy doing so.

Sure there are those who marry in haste, there are everywhere in the world, just as there are relationships that don't work out, most likely because people had fixed and pre-concieved ideas of what a marriage should entail.

I'm just lucky I guess, I don't need to 'own' half a house, saves my wife going out to earn the legal fees for a usufruct - right?

Yours is different. Fact is most wives (NOT ALL) have little schooling and can only ever work serving drinks or in a factory which kind of defeats the purpose of marrying a crusty old tubby farang and with that in mind why are you "proud" yours stays at home. Most married farang I know have non university wives who stay at home. It's part of the exchange process 

Edited January 17, 2021 by madmen

[473geo]

5 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

As has already been discussed numerous times on here a usufruct is useless when you are married . And even more useless when you live on the in-laws farm . Where I live 2 incomes are the norm ,stay at home mums are a thing of the past but I guess you could do that cheaply living in the boonies .although  She’s still in the same position as without your money she is not independent . If that works for you guys fair play to you , but I’d rather my wife could stand on her own two feet and keep building generational wealth without me if something was to happen . I guess no two stories are the same 

Course one can live cheap in the boonies, my mother law provided the land to build the house, you ain't going to find that happening too frequently in Bangkok, wives will be going to work for few years to pay for that. No mortgage for me and my wife, no rent, kind of lowers the need for 2 people to go out to work.

Just lucky I guess

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, madmen said:

why are you "proud" yours stays at home

This is very old school thinking, I would have thought this died out by now, but seemingly there are still some people left with this thinking.

In my grandparents generation it was quite common to think this way. My grandfather did think exactly like this, and didn't even allow my grandmother to work, because he felt that this would make him look bad, like he couldn't take care of his family.

[CharlieH]

1 hour ago, 473geo said:

We get by with my wife being the home maker, 15 years now, she has no need to go out to work, I prefer she is at home caring for the children, she 'works' way harder than the wives you speak of who have no children, right now she is schooling at home teaching kids in the wider family to read and write, she runs the farm, I would have it no other way. Being a miserable pessimist, or somebody who feels unless a wife is out working life is not normal, is not my way of conducting life. I am proud of the fact that I can take care of my wife, I enjoy doing so.

Sure there are those who marry in haste, there are everywhere in the world, just as there are relationships that don't work out, most likely because people had fixed and pre-concieved ideas of what a marriage should entail.

I'm just lucky I guess, I don't need to 'own' half a house, saves my wife going out to earn the legal fees for a usufruct - right?

 

Snap !

 

In response to the OP, If you follow the golden rule of not investing anymore than you are prepared to walk away from, the issue doesnt need "protecting" and you"ll not worry about it either.

Relationships can turn and die rapidly, no one can predict how they will evolve and there is no "one size fits all" a relationship is what works for the people in it, not others.

[473geo]

1 hour ago, madmen said:

Yours is different. Fact is most wives (NOT ALL) have little schooling and can only ever work serving drinks or in a factory which kind of defeats the purpose of marrying a crusty old tubby farang and with that in mind why are you "proud" yours stays at home. Most married farang I know have non university wives who stay at home. It's part of the exchange process 

 

I don't believe the daily treadmill of going out to work, if it can be avoided, is the best way to spend a life

I believe my children benefit every day by having their mother around to take care of them

I love to spend as much time with my wife as possible

I like that my wife can help out through the day at village functions and be an integral part of the community

I prefer the home cooking of my wife to take aways and restaurants, she makes the effort and time to create the food she knows I enjoy

It's much more fun doing the work on the farm together

 

Yes I am proud we have this option, after all millions turn out for work every day, I guess many have little choice, institutionalised to accept their daily drudgery as being 'normal'

 

 

 

 

 

 

[473geo]

39 minutes ago, jackdd said:

This is very old school thinking, I would have thought this died out by now, but seemingly there are still some people left with this thinking.

In my grandparents generation it was quite common to think this way. My grandfather did think exactly like this, and didn't even allow my grandmother to work, because he felt that this would make him look bad, like he couldn't take care of his family.

 

Right now the subsistence model in Thailand is showing how well this alternative welfare system is holding the country up with the substantial loss of revenue due to covid. Those that stay on the farm and grow the rice are the support base for the whole family.

I am in competition with nobody, I am happy my wife is at home with me, in fact I would be disappointed if she went out to work all day just buy stuff we don't really need!!

I always find that some posters never appreciate that most of us contented older guys have been there done that with the Thai 'party scene' while others worked their 9-5 and some. The old guys getting a bit now and 'living the dream' actually missed the boat when they were younger and are now catching up on something we have long since become bored with and left behind

 

[arick]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:26 AM, richard_smith237 said:

#1) Google is your friend

#2) Because I didn’t marry an ex-ho !!!!  - can’t speak for others !

Many people dont marry prostitutes and give their partner enough Money for material that will buy them proper clothing! Relationships still break down look at yoyr presidents past relationships unless your Canadian 

[arick]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:38 PM, The Man Who Sold the World said:

 

Well – let’s amplify this ridiculous pissing contest. 

 

Reference section 1469 in the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/59-usufruct-in-thailand/4-can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

 

When the usufruct is registered with the land office it is in essence not a contract that can be terminated by your wife.

Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by the civil and commercial code book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS. This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate the usufruct your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. 

 

 

Anyway – a point of order, we are discussing in English language the administration of Thai Law, which is written in the Thai Language, advocated by Thai Attorneys and adjudicated by Thai courts of law.

 

Nobody that has chimed in on this thread is able to provide a formal credible legal opinion concerning Usufructs, or any other part of the Thai legal system.

 

Now, for the record, I paid for formal legal protection by a real live licensed and practicing Thai Real Estate Attorney who spends a good portion of his time in Thai courts of law. 

 

It was money well spent and I am as protected as I can be.

 

 

Great so it's also good for the married man with a wife with land. I just went and got mine through the officer at the office. 

[The Man Who Sold the World]

This discussion concerns real estate, property and a foreigners rights in the country of Thailand. Thailand law is written in the Thai language. Few layman have the language skills, tools and/or training to understand the nuances of a court of law and how the written Thai law is administered. 

 

“The man who represents himself has a fool for a client”

 

Protect yourself. Consult with licensed Thai Attorneys. I received general legal advice from a few Thai Attorneys at no cost. Do do your due diligence and use care in selecting your Attorney.

 

[Bohemianfish]

On 1/14/2021 at 7:05 PM, digibum said:

One of the conditions for me to consider buying property in Thailand that my wife and I agreed on was it was nowhere near her family.  
 

It has nothing to do with schools or being in a backwater.  
 

It’s 100% a matter of avoiding her family’s drama.  
 

They’re sweet folks and all but I asked my wife to name a time we spent time up with her family and someone did not end up in a fight.   
 

Never physical fights.  Just too many old sisters living on the same soi for their entire lives.  
 

My wife thought I was exaggerating but the next few times we visited I made a little video of the little dramas popping off and she laughed and acknowledged that the aunties do like to be dramatic.  
 

So, living in her hometown is not even on the table anymore. ???? 

 

Years ago, my wife and I thought about living on land next to her family and having a little farm to grow our own vegetables. Two times she went back to Thailand (from the USA) for month long periods and decided after her experiences there (and her being a bit Americanized) that we'd live far away and have visits once a year. 

[chrisandsu]

On 1/14/2021 at 12:26 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by chrisandsu

[chrisandsu]

On 1/14/2021 at 9:10 PM, jak2002003 said:

Would anyone buy a house for their girlfriend like that in the UK? 

 

What is the compulsion farang men seem to have when they come here to buy / build houses for their gf's? Is it to bribe the woman to stay with them, like they own them something? 

 

Seems really dumb to me, especially more relationships here end in separation. Might as well just give her the cash. 

Absolutely . It’s straight up stupidity . If she cant afford a mortgage what use is she in your life ? What does she bring to the table other then Somchai’s kids ? I think I’d rather be alone then become a parent to a middle aged kid . 

[Yellowtail]

On 1/17/2021 at 12:52 PM, jackdd said:

This is very old school thinking, I would have thought this died out by now, but seemingly there are still some people left with this thinking.

In my grandparents generation it was quite common to think this way. My grandfather did think exactly like this, and didn't even allow my grandmother to work, because he felt that this would make him look bad, like he couldn't take care of his family.

 

Yes, it is old school thinking that how your children are cared for is important.

 

Progressive thinking is that the state knows better haw to raise your kids and your wife working so we can buy more junk we don't need and eat food from boxes. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Yellowtail