Is It Still Worth Moving To Thailand?

[GuestHouse]

That's how much credibility Guesthouse should be attaching to "racial equality" in the UK, it's all about exploitation.

He never had to suffer this indignity and that's why he's blind to any discrimination beyond his own ethnic minority.

Quertz, how you came to this conclusion is beyond me. You assume a number of things. Firstly that I have never suffered racial abuse/descrimination and secondly that I have no view beyond my own ethnic minority. Which would that be Quertz, my mother's ethnicity, or my father's or perhaps my wife's?

Here's a couple of observations:

1. The race laws in the UK did not exist when my parents came to the UK. The idea that the 'police are considering an attack as a race attack' had no meaning - Racial attacks where not recognized as such.

So looking at reports of an incident recorded under terms of a law that did not exist until only a handful of years ago has no meaning.

We have to look at other indicators, example the rooting out of racism in the police, the implementation of laws and polcies to combat racism. All are indications that the UK is serious about tackling racism. The impact is clear, racism in the UK is on the retreat - You need to talk to young people to see that, you might also look at recruitment and the opertunities immigrants have in the UK.

2. I can't say how the Germans treat their Polish immigrants, or any other immigrants for that matter. I do know through direct experience, that foreigners are widely accepted at all levels of British society. The company I work in relies hugely on foreign staff, not just for cleaners and canteen staff, but at all levels of our organization. I believe the last survey in our company identified over 200 mother toungue languages among our staff. Our staff is almost entirely professional, with high minimum educaitonal requirements and extremely good pay and condition.

Foreigners from all around the globe are accepted on an equal footing.

The same is true across the whole of British industry and commerce.

Exploitation?

Of course it happens, but race hate crimes are legislated against and prosecuted, and rights are given to all in the UK regardless of race.

It is that openess of British society that enables the UK to attract some of the best brains in Europe and the world.

As I say, we've come a long way since the days when football 'fans(?)' would regularly hurle bananas at black players, and yes I remember that happening.

Edited May 20, 2007 by GuestHouse

[gummy]

That's how much credibility Guesthouse should be attaching to "racial equality" in the UK, it's all about exploitation.

He never had to suffer this indignity and that's why he's blind to any discrimination beyond his own ethnic minority.

Quertz, how you came to this conclusion is beyond me. You assume a number of things. Firstly that I have never suffered racial abuse/descrimination and secondly that I have no view beyond my own ethnic minority. Which would that be Quertz, my mother's ethnicity, or my father's or perhaps my wife's?

Here's a couple of observations:

1. The race laws in the UK did not exist when my parents came to the UK. The idea that the 'police are considering an attack as a race attack' had no meaning - Racial attacks where not recognized as such.

So looking at reports of an incident recorded under terms of a law that did not exist until only a handful of years ago has no meaning.

We have to look at other indicators, example the rooting out of racism in the police, the implementation of laws and polcies to combat racism. All are indications that the UK is serious about tackling racism. The impact is clear, racism in the UK is on the retreat - You need to talk to young people to see that, you might also look at recruitment and the opertunities immigrants have in the UK.

2. I can't say how the Germans treat their Polish immigrants, or any other immigrants for that matter. I do know through direct experience, that foreigners are widely accepted at all levels of British society. The company I work in relies hugely on foreign staff, not just for cleaners and canteen staff, but at all levels of our organization. I believe the last survey in our company identified over 200 mother toungue languages among our staff. Our staff is almost entirely professional, with high minimum educaitonal requirements and extremely good pay and condition.

Foreigners from all around the globe are accepted on an equal footing.

The same is true across the whole of British industry and commerce.

Exploitation?

Of course it happens, but race hate crimes are legislated against and prosecuted, and rights are given to all in the UK regardless of race.

It is that openess of British society that enables the UK to attract some of the best brains in Europe and the world.

As I say, we've come a long way since the days when football 'fans(?)' would regularly hurle bananas at black players, and yes I remember that happening.

It is unfortunate that self denial is amplified by ignorance of the facts or even attempting to research the facts. I accept that as the son of an immigrant you are still going through the phase of "the grass is always greener etc" and will do for probably a further generation yet. Your statement that racial attacks are on the decrease illustrates quite clearly to the better educated amongst us that you are totally ignorant of the actual facts, albeit through choice, political expediency to attract an audience or selctive understanding -whatever.

Below is an extract that I suggest you you read, attempt to digest before you illustrate further sever lacking of factual knowledge on this subject - that is assuming you do not consider your personnal knowledge above the UK Home Office statistics from where this extract came from. ( latest statistics awaited )

With respect to your repeated statement of throwing bananas at black football players this has only been stopped, quite rightly by legislation, unfortunately it does not mean the indigenous population all agree with it. And by the way England had an all white team when they one the world cup back in '66 but I expect you were not there then.

May I suggest that you subscribe and become better read in many more regional publications from all regions of the UK so that you may become better read in the subject of racial discrimination before posting further.

"Racist incidents recorded by the police have risen steadily from just over 10,000 in 1996/7 to about 50,000 incidents in 2001/2. In 2003/4 the number of racist incidents recorded by the police rose to 52,694 (+9.7%) from 49,078 in 2002/3. The 2003/4 British Crime survey however shows that the number of victims of racist attacks remained the same as in 2002/3 (206,000).

While this may in part be due to better recording and reporting, it does not detract from the unacceptably high levels of racial attack. In addition the homicide figures illustrate an alarmingly high number of murders of Asian or African Caribbean people. The police recorded 2,605 homicides in the three-year period ending 2003/4. Ten per cent of these were of Black people, 6% Asian and 4% ‘Other’ minority ethnic groups. In addition people of mixed ethnic origins face the highest risks of being the victim of crime, although Asian people also face significantly higher risks of crime relative to other ethnic groups.

The Observer (Sunday 27th March 2005 ) reported that Black or minority ethnic communities were three to four times more likely to be the subject of racial attack and reported 12 racist murders in the last four years.

1. 'Race and the Criminal Justice System: an overview to the complete statistics 2003/2004' (Home Office February 2005) (statistics from section 95 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991)

2. Race and Crime Statistics, Home Office 2005

[/i]

Edited May 20, 2007 by gummy

[qwertz]

Well Gummy, thanks for the update.

It looks like I did well to leave and stay away from England.

Looking at those figures, LOS seems like a better deal and speaking as one who has never had much trouble there, then I'd say it is still worth moving.

[torito]

A little bit out of topic, but not too much as this has to do with one of the aspect contributing to choose Thailand as a place to move.

If you want to talk about racism, the you have to talk Australia. The first time I was in London the thing that most impressed me was the diversity of ethnic groups sharing all the same place. In London you can see black, whites and yellows, christian and muslims, short an tall, blonde and black heads, all together in the city. If you go to Sydney, the most cosmopolitan city in the world (estimated about 400 different ethnic groups), you only see white australians and japanese tourists. There is no mix in there. I have never seen ethnics in Bondi beach either.

In have had the fortune to work with English professionals (and americans too) and I have never been insulted or treated in derogative form as I was all the times in Australia. For me, English are very decent and civilized people...perhaps the best in the world. Racism may exist but never at the levels experienced in Australia, in where ethnic are segregated.

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

[kankaroo]

To answer the OP's question. Alas I do not know the answer. I have lived in Thailand for about 4 years off and on over a 6 year or so period from the early 200's. I am now 27.

I was not here when there was 24 hour activity and an anything goes attitude, but I do believe in some way I caught the tail end of that era. I won't go into details but I was in Thailand just when Thaksin became the prime minister. I would have been about 21 and had the time of my life (so far )

I now see Thailand in a different light. I understand so much more about the culture, tradition and language of Thailand that I seem to have some feeling and affinity to the country that I didn't have before.

I am not in Thailand now but I miss it / her ...maybe like you do with an old romance

Basically it is to you what it is.

Been to many SE Asian countries and loved em all in a different way but Thailand and it's people will always be no31 with me !!

Kankaroo

[ThaiGoon]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

[Pepe']

One of the things that has helped me decide to not retire in Thailand, besides getting divorced, Is the tremendous value of the friends and connections I already have here.

I don't want to reinvent the wheel and moving to Thailand would be much like that.

I can work here a very small amount of time still pay my bills and go to Thailand pretty much whenever I want.

The move seemed like a good idea at one time but not now.

Everything happens for a reason.

PS Did I mention the weather here is near perfect and 10 minutes from the beach

First I am assuming your American living in California san diego correct me if I am wrong the problem I have living here now is the over inflatted thai baht as for investing in real estate or a business I highly advise you against that for one you can not own a home here and as for business the thai has to own 51 % and getting thai to work for you is close to impossible continue what you are doing coming here for vacation and having fun then go back home as for me I am stuck here now burned all my bridge's and spent all my money thank God I have a retirement pension I have a friend from the UK who is moving to Brazil check it out the next time you have a vacation i hear from him it a good place to go since you can own property there and visa are not a problem and if you get home sick the flights are short to the USA and not expensive also try costa rica another hot spot have fun

------------------------------

Yes I'm here in San Diego and would have probably moved to LOS if not for this recent divorce.

Again again it's all karma and it's starting to seem like a much better idea as a little time passes.

I just miss my nephews and niece a lot as I'm and very attached to them.

For now I get to see them for a month every year.

We're talking now about my nephew possibly coming here to stay with me and go to school here in San Diego. It would make me very happy to have him in my life again.

Plus he would get a far superior education another big plus.

Best of Luck,

Pepe"

[Scott]

I've been here for around 20 years. About 10 to 15 years ago, it was truly great living here. It was very easy to overlook the problems, because you could have such an absolutely great time--anytime, night or day, 7 days a week.

The country is growing much more conservative--I am guessing that this is in part due to an aging population and also more development.

Because of this, I now tend to see the problems as being more prominent than before. I can't believe being told at 6:00 in the evening that you can't drink anymore because they are having an election the next day!! There are a lot of other examples that don't involve alcohol.

In short, this is the type of stuff that you can expect in western or developed nations and now it's happening here. So if it is the sort of "unlimited" good times, I suggest someplace else.

Now, all of that said, it's a good place to live, nice people, reasonably easy life etc. Of course, if you aren't or can't get the visa to stay and think your going to find loopholes--good luck to you.

In short, if I were moving now, I wouldn't come here--I'd go to Vietnam or Cambodia. However, I am not even remotely thinking of pulling of stakes and moving--a little too old for that now!

[Edonista]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

I have much more then "minimum money" but as I have not enough years (under 50) there is no visa option for me apart begging a tourist visa at a neighbouring embassy each 90 days.

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

[Maigo6]

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

I live in hope......

[chinthee]

I agree with Scott, Thailand is a great place to live, and is the absolute ideal place if you work pan-Asia and can pick anyplace to live in terms of having all the infrastructure, travel costs, etc. and reasonable living costs, and fun factor. Cambodia drastically lacks these advantages, and Vietnam, though promising is also not as desirable.

I moved to Thailand full time when I was 45. I was working outside Thailand pan-regionally, and traveled a lot every month, so visa runs were only needed occassionally. I'm now over 50 and have a retirement visa. Under the new rules, I can't imagine anyone under 50 considering moving here unless:

1. Need the best SE Asia base & have a need & funds to travel by air monthly. However, you can still run afoul of the new rules by chance if you have to do visa runs.

2. Intend to teach or get a job offer from a Thai-based firm. However, even this is risky, because if you lose your job and can't get another one, you will have to leave or enter as a tourist - not attractive options if you have built a new life here with GF, BF, wife, etc..Obviously a marriage visa is possible, but now has monthly earnings requirements, etc., and they are relatively a hassle (I had one before but changed to retirement visa) because immigration seems to believe most marriages betweeen Farangs and Thais are shams and puts you through scrutiny and make you jump thru some annoying hoops to get and renew them.

3. Have the funds to start a business that will employ Thais and can then get a work permit, Visa, etc..

5. Intend to marry a Thai and can prove the income requirements. However, again, in the case of divorce, you will have to leave.

I feel sorry for younger people under these new rules as many will miss the opportunity to live in Thailand, and for those who do set up a new life and relationships here they now have fewer assurances they will be able to continue long term.

[GuestHouse]

Thank your Gummy, as your cut and paste from the Observer demonstrates, race crimes are static against the 2002/2003 figures.

And this despite improved reporting and better definition of what constitutes a race hate crime. (The actual legal definition of Race Hate Crime is only this year recognized in UK law) An example how the UK is legislating against hate crimes, reflecting the mood of the nation that the British want an inclusive non discrimatory nation.

Your statement that racial attacks are on the decrease illustrates quite clearly to the better educated amongst us

Gummy, I take it that is not you personally.

[GuestHouse]

With respect to your repeated statement of throwing bananas at black football players this has only been stopped, quite rightly by legislation, unfortunately it does not mean the indigenous population all agree with it. And by the way England had an all white team when they one the world cup back in '66 but I expect you were not there then.

You'll have to forgive me here, I'm not sure what it is you are saying that the indigenous population all agree with? That they agree with throwing banana's at black players or that they agree with the laws banning such disgusting acts of racism?

And yes you are right, the England football team is no longer all white and far more representative of the mix of British society. I think this is a good thing, sport and competition is by definition a meritocracy, open to immigrants who through their excellence build bridges to the wider community. Britain has done very well on this front, the example of Daley Thomson comes to mind, but also Frank Bruno and Naseem Hamed– Heroes to the whole nation.

The sight of a British sports person being cheered by British crowds regardless of their race/gender/religion is a great example of integration and acceptance within society.

Professional league football is also a good example of where immigration and emigration bring benefits of new talent.

Great example Gummy, thanks for reminding me of them.

Edited May 21, 2007 by GuestHouse

[qwertz]

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

I live in hope......

I'm all right Jack? If all you expats got together with your financial clout and knowhow you might have an association with a real voice instead of just fragmented cyber quibbles.

[Edonista]

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

I live in hope......

I wonder if all Thai people who have been hurt in their revenues by the visa shake up share your hope.

[highdiver]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

I have much more then "minimum money" but as I have not enough years (under 50) there is no visa option for me apart begging a tourist visa at a neighbouring embassy each 90 days.

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

you can allways go back to your own country and go to the Thai embessy and explain that you are going to do buisness in Thailand and that you would like a 3 year buisness multiple entry visa. if you have proof that you are financialy viable you will get one.

i helpd a firend do that a few months ago by sending a letter from my company that he is doing buisness with us.

he is not working in Thailand.

[torito]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

I have much more then "minimum money" but as I have not enough years (under 50) there is no visa option for me apart begging a tourist visa at a neighbouring embassy each 90 days.

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

'Edonista', I did not say this properly, apologies to that.

To have the minimum money does not mean to have the minimum to live. It means the minimum the law requires in your conditons, e.g. if retired a minimum amount in the bank, a viable business worth the minimum required by law...ect.

The visa option for you is to buy a business and you will have a yearly renewable visa. Easy!!!

There is no country in the world that will allow you to stay and live just becuase you have the minimum to live.

I wish I can see less of those who believe that they have the right in the color of their skin and eyes. Get real.

Edited May 21, 2007 by torito

[Edonista]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

I have much more then "minimum money" but as I have not enough years (under 50) there is no visa option for me apart begging a tourist visa at a neighbouring embassy each 90 days.

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

'Edonista', I did not say this properly, apologies to that.

To have the minimum money does not mean to have the minimum to live. It means the minimum the law requires in your conditons, e.g. if retired a minimum amount in the bank, a viable business worth the minimum required by law...ect.

The visa option for you is to buy a business and you will have a yearly renewable visa. Easy!!!

There is no country in the world that will allow you to stay and live just because you have the minimum to live.

I wish I can see less of those who believe that they have the right in the color of their skin and eyes. Get real.

Malaysia: each EU citizen gets 90 days visa exemption on arrival and therefore can stay indefinitely just doing 4 visa runs to any border each year. Cambodia: you can stay as long as you want just paying 25$ a month for a business visa. Philippines: you can extend your 21 days visa exemption on arrival up to 1 year before having to leave the country, you can anyway come back immediately.

It is not a matter of right in my skin. It is a matter of logic: both these three countries have only to gain from my permanence in their territory. I will need food, accomodation, entarteinment and will pay for it giving jobs to people and foreign currency to the nation.

Only Thailand is ruled by such an evil elite that in order to keep high the profits of their (their is referred to the elite only)export industry they chase away farang spenders and investors to avoid that their monetary inflow appreciates the baht .And in so doing, they show they do not care a satang about all the Thais that are suffering (and will more and more) because of chased away farang spending.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Edonista

[Edonista]

Coming back to the topic, in Thailand most of farangs who have not been able to adapt, expect to be treated beyong expectations, can not get the minimal requirements for a visa, have problems becuase their super ego and belief that things have to be granted for them, have problems with Thais becuase of their faulst, attribute all to the Thai racism against farangs.

In Thailand, of you respect the Thais, if you cope with the legal corruption and you have some minimum money to live, it is a great place to move.

I have much more then "minimum money" but as I have not enough years (under 50) there is no visa option for me apart begging a tourist visa at a neighbouring embassy each 90 days.

If this is the way you welcome farangs relocating to your country, prepare to see less and less of them.

you can allways go back to your own country and go to the Thai embessy and explain that you are going to do buisness in Thailand and that you would like a 3 year buisness multiple entry visa. if you have proof that you are financialy viable you will get one.

i helpd a firend do that a few months ago by sending a letter from my company that he is doing buisness with us.

he is not working in Thailand.

I know no one who could issue such invitation letter. I remember when I read the law anyway that the inviting company must enclose documentation proving it is not just a "ghost" company (I mean an invitation by a company running a beer bar would not do )

Also I closed my company in Italy so how could play the part of the businessman at my embassy ?

[torito]

Only Thailand is ruled by such an evil elite that in order to keep high the profits of their (their is referred to the elite)export industry they chase away farang spenders and investors to avoid that their monetary inflow appreciates the baht .And in so doing, they show they do not care a satang about all the Thais that are suffering (and will more and more) because of chased away farang spending.

This is incorrect...farang spenders and investors can get a work permit and long term visa with no problem.

[pop3]

Like anywere it comes down to money, fortunatly now Im rolling in it and Thailand is a great place to be, but before I came into the big bucks and I was living here on a less than perfect bank account there wassent much fun, looking at everybody els enjoying themselves was the normal day, probably now I have money even the USA would be a good place to live. the rich people in Iraq are probably doing ok too.

[torito]

now I have money even the USA would be a good place to live. the rich people in Iraq are probably doing ok too.

Thailand has the magic of making the poor farang look like rich, unless for a moment...you have a point

[qwertz]

Apart from perhaps Antarctica or the Gobi desert, with money enough I suppose you can find your home from home just about anywhere.

[Naam]

Only Thailand is ruled by such an evil elite that in order to keep high the profits of their (their is referred to the elite)export industry they chase away farang spenders and investors to avoid that their monetary inflow appreciates the baht .And in so doing, they show they do not care a satang about all the Thais that are suffering (and will more and more) because of chased away farang spending.

This is incorrect...farang spenders and investors can get a work permit and long term visa with no problem.

Edonista,

besides the fact that i think you are completely wrong

your problem is that you don't seem to qualify for a retiree visa because you are younger than 50 years. all your raving and ranting about the procedures in other countries will not help to solve your problem. it is quite obvious you would like to stay in Thailand. so why not exploring other possibilities?

if company and work permit are too much of a hassle why not find a thai lady in the wilderness who for a certain monthly allowance would marry you but will still keep on living (very) happily in her village without breaking her back for 2-3000 baht a month in a rice field whereas you select any place in Thailand to live and enjoy your life.

it's not as complicated as it sounds!

[JR Texas]

if company and work permit are too much of a hassle why not find a thai lady in the wilderness who for a certain monthly allowance would marry you but will still keep on living (very) happily in her village without breaking her back for 2-3000 baht a month in a rice field whereas you select any place in Thailand to live and enjoy your life.

it's not as complicated as it sounds!

JR Texas: Is it still worth moving to Thailand?

If you do not mind living in a country where The Three Stooges are in charge of drafting the visa/business rules, then it is for you (any person that tells you the visa/business rule solutions are simple does not know what they are talking about).

If you do not mind living in country where it is next to impossible to start a small business and make it successful because of the visa/business rules, then it is for you.

If you do not mind living in a country that is turning xenophobic and striving to break up farang-Thai families, then it is for you.

If you do not mind living in a country that is doing virtually everything it can to force expats out of the country, then it is for you.

Are there still positives? Yes........but many people that have lived here a long time (even those with no visa problems like myself) are seriously considering leaving.

Make your decision wisely..........Thailand is not a tropical paradise..........those days, if they ever existed, are long since over.

[Ulysses G.]

What a load of crap.

When I came here to live, 20 years ago, practically no Farang could get a visa or work permit AT ALL and we were all running to Penang every two months.

All the other stuff was worse/harder too.

Thailand is much easier and more efficient than in the past.

The good old days are right now!

[JR Texas]

What a load of crap.

When I came here to live, 20 years ago, practically no Farang could get a visa or work permit AT ALL and we were all running to Penang every two months.

All the other stuff was worse/harder too.

Thailand is much easier and more efficient than in the past.

The good old days are right now!

JR Texas to Ulysses G: Interesting perspective........completely wrong in my view........but interesting. It amazes me how some people can look at a mound of crap and see diamonds.

[ThaiGoon]

What a load of crap.

When I came here to live, 20 years ago, practically no Farang could get a visa or work permit AT ALL and we were all running to Penang every two months.

All the other stuff was worse/harder too.

Thailand is much easier and more efficient than in the past.

The good old days are right now!

[GuestHouse]

What a load of crap.

When I came here to live, 20 years ago, practically no Farang could get a visa or work permit AT ALL and we were all running to Penang every two months.

All the other stuff was worse/harder too.

Thailand is much easier and more efficient than in the past.

The good old days are right now!

Very very true.

[Nibor1945]

What a load of crap.

When I came here to live, 20 years ago, practically no Farang could get a visa or work permit AT ALL and we were all running to Penang every two months.

All the other stuff was worse/harder too.

Thailand is much easier and more efficient than in the past.

The good old days are right now!

JR Texas to Ulysses G: Interesting perspective........completely wrong in my view........but interesting. It amazes me how some people can look at a mound of crap and see diamonds.

Hi JR

Same could apply from the opposite view! Must be something to do with perspective?

Edited May 22, 2007 by Nibor1945