EU blames AstraZeneca as vaccine battle with UK deepens

[CG1 Blue]

8 hours ago, david555 said:

But by not being a young person i would follow the  medical advise and go for Pfizer ....but seems we have to be sattisfied with the one who would be availble .

☹️

Which medical advice would you follow to reach that conclusion? 

[vinny41]

41 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Do you think dropping provocative, un-sourced one liners is a proper way to debate?

 

Could it be useful to make an effort there?  Read you posts over, improve them before clicking "publish": this shall improve this forum 

Let Him Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Stone

[david555]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Which medical advice would you follow to reach that conclusion? 

The one i would trust most at the moment of jab availability ..... which is not yet ..... but i would  trust Sputnik for sure  .... ???? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by david555

[KhaoYai]

10 hours ago, david555 said:

But by not being a young person i would follow the  medical advise and go for Pfizer

Where is that advice?

 

As regards choosing which vaccine,  clearly it will depend on supply but I travelled 30 miles further to try and get the AZ vaccine.  Talking to local people, it seemed that those who'd gone to the local centre had Pfizer whilst friends in York had been given AZ. I chose York and indeed, was given AZ. I wouldn't have been upset if I'd been given Pfizer though - both seem pretty effective.

[david555]

22 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Where is that advice?

 

As regards choosing which vaccine,  clearly it will depend on supply but I travelled 30 miles further to try and get the AZ vaccine.  Talking to local people, it seemed that those who'd gone to the local centre had Pfizer whilst friends in York had been given AZ. I chose York and indeed, was given AZ. I wouldn't have been upset if I'd been given Pfizer though - both seem pretty effective.

first of all , i just follow my country advise .... and i live Thailand so no vaccination on short term ....

 

secondly i do not denies that A.Z. works  ...., after second shot the maximum protection as the company said from beginning

 

as a matter of facts whole vaccine bunch has  still to be proven their  efficacy , as we  can consider us all to become  vaccinated  persons as  Guiney pigs  one way or another  ????

[sandyf]

On 3/25/2021 at 3:36 PM, KhaoYai said:

Vaccine producers are private companies not state institutions and as such cannot be told what to do providing they stay within the law.

You are wrong. Companies, private or otherwise have to get an export licence for certain goods which is subject to state approval. Any country can restrict the approval of export licences should a situation arise such as the shortage of an essential product.

 

It is not only domestic measures that can restrict export licences, foreign policy can also play a part such as sanctions. It was sanctions that banned the export of tanks from the UK to Iran in 1976, which is still in dispute.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

You are wrong. Companies, private or otherwise have to get an export licence for certain goods which is subject to state approval. Any country can restrict the approval of export licences should a situation arise such as the shortage of an essential product.

The UK is a 'free country' - no such restrictions currently exist.  Have you checked out which goods require an export licence?  Export licences are mainly required for military items and associated technology.  As far as I know they are not applicable to vaccines.

 

At the moment it would require a change in the law to restrict vaccine exports - that is not impossible but Boris Johnson has already said he doesn't want to see any controls/restrictions on vaccines.

 

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

At the moment it would require a change in the law to restrict vaccine exports - that is not impossible but Boris Johnson has already said he doesn't want to see any controls/restrictions on vaccines.

Johnson wants to see this contract respected because it allowed him to receive 21 million vaccines from the EU giving zero in return and he wants things to stay that way. 

 

If you look at the Withdrawal Agreement treaty we signed, when Johnson does not like "this or that" , the signature of the UK suddenly becomes void. 

 

What we need to set up there is a balanced, reciprocal relationship. 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Hi from France

[Hi from France]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The UK is a 'free country'

 

 

and If you want we can have a thought experiment 

 

If the situation was reversed, do you believe Frost and Johnson would deliver 21 million vaccine to the EU first? Or would they keep the UK's vaccine production for themselves? 

 

 

Can you look me in the eyes ???? and tell me that Boris Johnson would deliver 21 million vaccine to the EU in this situation ?

[polpott]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

Johnson wants to see this contract respected because it allowed him to receive 21 million vaccines from the EU giving zero in return and he wants things to stay that way. 

 

If you look at the Withdrawal Agreement treaty we signed, when Johnson does not like "this or that" , the signature of the UK suddenly becomes void. 

 

What we need to set up there is a balanced, reciprocal relationship. 

 

No we need to honour the contracts already made. In contract law, the contract AZ made with the UK trumps the contract that the EU made with AZ.

[Hi from France]

7 minutes ago, polpott said:

No we need to honour the contracts already made. In contract law, the contract AZ made with the UK trumps the contract that the EU made with AZ.

again : I assume that as a Brexiteer you have monitored the situation these last months and you have basic knowledge of the Brexiteers motivations and Brexiteer doctrine.

 

 

Just put yourself in our shoes : lf the situation was reversed, and a private contract between AZ and the EU said the UK plants must send all their vaccines to the EU

 

...do you believe Frost and Johnson would be OK to deliver 21 million vaccines to the EU before Britain was served?

 

[polpott]

2 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

again : I assume that as a Brexiteer you have monitored the situation these last months and you have basic knowledge of the Brexiteers motivations and Brexiteer doctrine.

 

 

Just put yourself in our shoes : lf the situation was reversed, and a private contract between AZ and the EU said the UK plants must send all their vaccines to the EU

 

...do you believe Frost and Johnson would be OK to deliver 21 million vaccines to the EU before Britain was served?

 

I wasn't a brexiteer, I was a remainer. As I said a contract is a contract, I would be peed if the situation was reversed. However, I wouldn't be peed at the EU or AZ I'd be peed at my country for making a lousy contract and leaving it to the last minute.

[Hi from France]

8 minutes ago, polpott said:

I wasn't a brexiteer, I was a remainer.

Oh sorry I forgot 

 

8 minutes ago, polpott said:

As I said a contract is a contract, I would be peed if the situation was reversed. However, I wouldn't be peed at the EU or AZ I'd be peed at my country for making a lousy contract and leaving it to the last minute.

Sure a contract is a contract, and your word is you bond... 

 

But I 'm not asking about you: we know Johnson and Frost, we have seen them in action these last months. 

 

You claim that right now if there was a private contract between the European Union and AstraZeneca, they would make sure that the UK send its own vaccine production to the EU (and get zero in exchange?). 

 

21 million doses

 

Seriously? 

[polpott]

1 minute ago, Hi from France said:

Oh sorry I forgot 

 

Sure a contract is a contract, and your word is you bond... 

 

But I 'm not asking about you: we know Johnson and Frost, we have seen them in action these last months. 

 

You claim that right now if there was a private contract between the European Union and AstraZeneca, they would make sure that the UK send its own vaccine production to the EU (and get zero in exchange?). 

 

21 million doses

 

Seriously? 

I don't give a toss about Johnson and Frost, I told you how I would feel. Just as I'm sure that you don't give a toss how Macron feels.

[Loiner]

On 3/26/2021 at 8:13 AM, Hi from France said:

Do you think dropping provocative, un-sourced one liners is a proper way to debate?

 

Could it be useful to make an effort there?  Read you posts over, improve them before clicking "publish": this shall improve this forum 

 

I think the forum would improve if posters did not resort to regurgitating propaganda from their preferred rag, or even worse publications and quotes from pseudo-exspurts.

 

One liners keep the forum nice and snappy. 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

 

I think the forum would improve if posters did not resort to regurgitating propaganda from their preferred rag, or even worse publications and quotes from pseudo-exspurts.

 

One liners keep the forum nice and snappy. 

Possibly this is because you cannot find reputable sources for yourself.

[Loiner]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Possibly this is because you cannot find reputable sources for yourself.

Possibly not. Probably depends on your opinion of reputable. 

[candide]

An outsiders view:

'One mistake after the other.' How AstraZeneca went from pandemic hero to villain

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/25/business/astrazeneca-covid-vaccine/index.html

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

6 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Oh sorry I forgot 

 

Sure a contract is a contract, and your word is you bond... 

 

But I 'm not asking about you: we know Johnson and Frost, we have seen them in action these last months. 

 

You claim that right now if there was a private contract between the European Union and AstraZeneca, they would make sure that the UK send its own vaccine production to the EU (and get zero in exchange?). 

 

21 million doses

 

Seriously? 

Personally I'd feel very uncomfortable if the EU had signed a more watertight deal than the UK, and then the UK government blocked exports that were meant to fulfil the EU contract. That would feel almost like inciting war. 

I'm glad you asked that question though. It's made it even clearer to me just how disgraceful those threats were from the EU. 

 

Thankfully Germany and other countries knew how unacceptable those threats were. 

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Personally I'd feel very uncomfortable 

Fine but the question you two are avoiding is what would be the measures taken by the national - populist government of the UK. 

 

As I said, It's a mere thought experiment. 

 

I'm going to suggest whatever contract would have been signed between the EU and AstraZeneca, Johnson would not let the UK vaccine production go to the EU first. He would never send 21 millions vaccines to the EU getting zero in return. 

 

He already disrespect twice a treaty with his own signature on it, do you really claim he would

• let a private contract that he did not even sign... 
• ... send lifesaving vaccines to the the EU first? 

 

 

(same thing in the future: the only way for Europeans to be safe is no longer to be reliant on the UK). 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Hi from France

[polpott]

1 minute ago, Hi from France said:

Fine but the question you two are avoiding is what would be the measures taken by the national - populist government of the UK. 

 

It's a simple thought experiment. 

 I'm going to suggest whatever contract would have been signed between the EU and AstraZeneca, Johnson would not let the UK vaccine production go to the EU first. 

 

He already disrespect twice a treaty with his own signature on it, do you really claim he would

• let a private contract that he did not even sign
• to send lifesaving vaccines to the the EU first? 

 

 

(same thing in the future: the only way for Europeans to be safe is no longer to be reliant on the UK). 

 

Its a purely hypothetical question. The simple fact is that the British government secured a much better contract than the EU. And earlier.

 

"(same thing in the future: the only way for Europeans to be safe is no longer to be reliant on the UK)."

 

Love it. the EU reliant on the UK. How the mighty have fallen!

[KhaoYai]

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

If the situation was reversed, do you believe Frost and Johnson would deliver 21 million vaccine to the EU first? Or would they keep the UK's vaccine production for themselves? 

You fail to understand that this is a contractual issue which the EU has politicised.  Under current UK law Johnson could not block a delivery of legitimate goods to anywhere. The UK has told AstraZeneca that they must honour their contractual obligations.  EU members have already started blocking exports - Italy to Australia - under what law, I know not, their laws may permit it.

 

As I said in an earlier post, the UK government currently has emergency powers and can bring in new laws quite quickly but those laws are not without scrutiny and they can be quashed if they are found to be an abuse of those powers.  I think it is highly unlikely that the UK government would block any vaccine exports and if they tried, I would expect the courts to over-rule any such decision.

 

Holding a company to its contractual obligations is lawful in the UK and is supported by existing laws.

Edited March 28, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

12 hours ago, Hi from France said:

If you look at the Withdrawal Agreement treaty we signed, when Johnson does not like "this or that" , the signature of the UK suddenly becomes void. 

Since when did vaccines become part of the withdrawal agreement?

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, polpott said:

Its a purely hypothetical question.

this is how EU leaders think, and this is largely how it works with the UK: if it goes the way Boris wants, it's fine "better contract let's respect it", you sent vaccines from the EU plants to us.

 

If it was the opposite, the UK would keep the vaccines produced in Britain. Even when Boris signs a treaty he does not respect it, how do you expect him to have the UK sending 21 millions vaccines to the EU in the midst of a pandemic ?

 

seriously

 

What most in the the EU think is that contracts and treaties do not matter to Boris Johnson. There is a double standard by which we'd loose anyway.

 

 

 

now event if it's "purely hypothetical" it just tells us that we are the fall guy in this farce

 

 

 

Quote

Love it. the EU reliant on the UK. How the mighty have fallen!

Reliant : I'm not so sure of this, actually. But that was discussed with these Lipids issue. I think the supply chain situation is complex, overlapping because of the (former) single market including the UK.

 

 

but yes you just love it obviously, and that's one more problem  - some would say Russia is a more reliable partner than the UK there.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Hi from France

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Since when did vaccines become part of the withdrawal agreement?

what? I'm just reminding you Boris Johnson doesn't give a damn for the treaties he signed. 

 

got the point? 

[polpott]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

but yes you just love it obviously, and that's one more problem  - some would say Russia is a more reliable partner than the UK there.

Fine. Go for sputnik and stop your whingeing.

 

Still bitter over Agincourt, Waterloo and Trafalgar? You need to move on.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by polpott

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Bof, the old tales of the old on distant times.

On the same note, it should be unbearable to have dominated the world and to find yourself a second-class divided country with a nationalist leader reduced to petty contractual shenanigans to try to exist.

Spain, Holland, France, Portugal, Germany and Japan are all in the same boat, or would have been if we Brits hadn't sunk all their boats.

Edited March 28, 2021 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Under current UK law Johnson could not block a delivery of legitimate goods to anywhere.

But under EU law the French have been doing just that to Scots fish.

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Bof, the old tales of the old on distant times.

On the same note, it should be unbearable to have dominated the world and to find yourself a second-class divided country with a nationalist leader reduced to petty contractual shenanigans to try to exist.

keep in mind this is the extremist fringe of the Brits, but also that they are bound to stay in power in the years to come.

 

so this situation which is exacerbated by the vaccine dispute, is likely continue to spiral down in the future. 

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

I'm going to suggest whatever contract would have been signed between the EU and AstraZeneca, Johnson would not let the UK vaccine production go to the EU first.

You must have a different mindset in France then. Our government wouldn't stop a private company fulfilling it's contractual obligations to the bloc. State control isn't so popular here.