EU blames AstraZeneca as vaccine battle with UK deepens

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The UK is a 'free country' - no such restrictions currently exist.  Have you checked out which goods require an export licence?  Export licences are mainly required for military items and associated technology.  As far as I know they are not applicable to vaccines.

 

At the moment it would require a change in the law to restrict vaccine exports - that is not impossible but Boris Johnson has already said he doesn't want to see any controls/restrictions on vaccines.

 

We are not talking about the UK, you and others are complaining about the EU, but in the EU an export licence is required, the UK no longer has any say in that matter.

The UK can introduce export licences for vaccines if it chose to do so. Export licences do not necessarily restrict export, it just means the licence has to be approved. 

The UK does implement export control so not such a "free" country as you try to make out.

 

Boris does not want legislation, that would mean going through parliament, he prefers just to tell people not to send any abroad.

 

Boris Johnson – under fire for failing to say when jabs will be released – is urged to “publish a clear roadmap” for distributing them, with the country set to enjoy a vast surplus.

Suggestions that developing countries will be charged for the doses must be dropped and no attempt made to count any donations as part of the shrinking overseas aid budget, a letter says.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-vaccine-share-poor-countries-b1823386.html

[CG1 Blue]

12 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Fine but the question you two are avoiding is what would be the measures taken by the national - populist government of the UK. 

I don't know if you think it's clever or funny continually using this term 'national-populist' for our elected government, but it's neither. Give it up please. 

[KhaoYai]

29 minutes ago, sandyf said:

We are not talking about the UK, you and others are complaining about the EU, but in the EU an export licence is required, the UK no longer has any say in that matter.

The UK can introduce export licences for vaccines if it chose to do so. Export licences do not necessarily restrict export, it just means the licence has to be approved. 

The UK does implement export control so not such a "free" country as you try to make out.

Sorry but we absolutely WERE talking about the UK - my response was to a claim that the UK would do the same as the EU.

 

Secondly, there is no export control on vaccines in the UK currently and its highly unlikely there will be.  What's the point in talking about what the UK could do?  Any country can do anything at any time but we can only consider matters how they actually are.  If the UK was to impose any sort of restriction on vaccine exports, I would also criticise them for doing so.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, Hi from France said:

what? I'm just reminding you Boris Johnson doesn't give a damn for the treaties he signed. 

 

got the point? 

No, I don't get your point.  Johnson can either keep his word on state matters or break it. That is a completely separate matter,

 

This is about a contractual matter between the UK, AstraZeneca and the EU. The terms are clearly laid out - if Johnson was to try and take AZ to court for any failure, he would have to prove it was against the contract.  It is not within Johnson's remit to either ban or facilitate vaccine deliveries yet it seems the EU can do that.

 

Again, I would remind you, that this matter is between companies and sovereign states - the UK does not send vaccines to the EU and the EU does not send vaccines to the UK, companies do. Neither AstraZeneca, Pfizer or any of the vaccine manufacturers are state run or controlled by the state - certainly not in the UK. The UK and the EU are their customers - it is only the EU that has used legislation to prevent vaccine deliveries.

 

The UK is a free country and as far as I know, it is one of the terms of their membership that all EU members are too.  It seems though, that when they feel like it, the EU can 'bend' those freedoms by exercising control over who companies can sell to.

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by KhaoYai

[david555]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

You must have a different mindset in France then. Our government wouldn't stop a private company fulfilling it's contractual obligations to the bloc. State control isn't so popular here. 

 

Not stopping private company's obligations .... , but closing down parliament is more favorable..... as  proven....????

Edited March 28, 2021 by david555

[Hi from France]

52 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

No, I don't get your point. 

well OK that's it for me then

[Rimmer]

An off topic post has been removed

[Bkk Brian]

Great news for UK, the Moderna vaccine manufactured in the US will start being administered in the UK to the under 50's by the end of April. A real boost for for the UK vaccination plan.

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, david555 said:

Not stopping private company's obligations .... , but closing down parliament is more favorable..... as  proven....????

Which is totally irrelevant to this topic

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Great news for UK, the Moderna vaccine manufactured in the US will start being administered in the UK to the under 50's by the end of April. A real boost for for the UK vaccination plan.

Could you point us to a good source? 

 

If I remember well modeRNA represent "few" doses compared to the other vaccines 

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Could you point us to a good source? 

 

If I remember well modeRNA represent "few" doses compared to the other vaccines 

Britain has ordered 17m doses of the Moderna vaccine Not a figure I would call a few but each to their own

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/28/moderna-covid-vaccine-to-be-introduced-in-uk-from-april

Edited March 28, 2021 by vinny41
typo

[Hi from France]

7 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Could you point us to a good source? 

 

If I remember well modeRNA represent "few" doses compared to the other vaccines 

This is what I 'm reading now 

Quote

Moderna doses unlikely to be 'game-changer' to UK rollout, JCVI members says
The Moderna vaccine’s arrival is not expected to be a “game-changer” to the UK’s rollout, a member of joint committee on vaccination and immunisation (JCVI) has said, explaining that the quantities are expected to be smaller than those delivered by AstraZeneca and Pfizer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/28/coronavirus-live-news-germany-risks-losing-control-of-covid-brazil-deaths-top-3000-for-second-day

[KhaoYai]

49 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

This is what I 'm reading now 

Why must you be so negative?  Of course its not a game changer, it would be hard to improve on the success the UK has had already.

 

Why don't you direct your energy towards your own country's failure to get its vaccine programme working earlier? I believe they did much better yesterday though - which is great news.

 

The way you act in this matter reflects the EU's behaviour which is exactly why many people consider this whole argument to be nothing but sour grapes. I sincerely hope the EU and France in particular continue to pick up pace and get their populations vaccinated very soon. If they do that, I for one will be congratulating them, not complaining.

Edited March 28, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

13 hours ago, Victornoir said:

On the same note, it should be unbearable to have dominated the world and to find yourself a second-class divided country with a nationalist leader reduced to petty contractual shenanigans to try to exist.

Let's just pick that apart:

 

Dominated the world: Correct and something that many of us are not proud of. However we are not guilty for the sins of our forefathers and I believe most Brits are  glad the empire has gone. We don't see that as negative at all.

 

Second class divided country:  Hardly second class. Still one of the fairest countries in the world and even in a year ravaged by Covid 19, still managed to be the 6th largest economy in the world in 2020. Divided? Isn't every democracy?

 

Nationalist leader: Agreed but he's only around until 2024 after which I think the country will rid themselves of him.

 

Contractual shenanigans: A contract is a contract, what is the point in having one if you can't hold the contractor to their commitments?

Edited March 28, 2021 by KhaoYai

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

This is what I 'm reading now 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/28/coronavirus-live-news-germany-risks-losing-control-of-covid-brazil-deaths-top-3000-for-second-day

From the same article is 

So I don’t think it’s a game-changer, I think it’s an incremental change. It adds an extra string to our bow if you like and it gives us an extra line of security. But it’s not a profoundly different change of direction.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/28/coronavirus-live-news-germany-risks-losing-control-of-covid-brazil-deaths-top-3000-for-second-day

No Doubt the EU would decline 17 million extra doses as being insufficient

 

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Why must you be so negative?  Of course its not a game changer, it would be hard to improve on the success the UK has had already.

I'm positive, just not too much ????

 

also vaccine production will pick up very quickly in the coming weeks and months (and the very fact we have vaccines is remarkable)

Edited March 28, 2021 by Hi from France

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Why don't you direct your energy towards your own country's failure to get its vaccine programme working earlier? I believe they did much better yesterday though - which is great news.

not a failure, but instead of being naive and producing for the world, the EU should have done the same as the UK and the USA and demand to be served first and export zero until we are protected. The 40 millions doses we exported (half of them to the UK) are causing problems

 

I find that sad, but here we are.  Being the only ones to act cooperatively now is just being idiots. 

 

 

now I heard that the EU will soon produce more vaccines than the USA and we'll be the first producers in the world (need to source that)

Edited March 28, 2021 by Hi from France

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Could you point us to a good source? 

 

If I remember well modeRNA represent "few" doses compared to the other vaccines 

Is the UK Culture Secretary good enough for you? https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/moderna-vaccine-arrive-uk-imminently-20272449

 

A few doses?

 

17 million in total to be exact.

[Bkk Brian]

30 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

now I heard that the EU will soon produce more vaccines than the USA and we'll be the first producers in the world (need to source that)

Yes a reliable source would be appropriate

[cocoonclub]

13 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

It is not within Johnson's remit to either ban or facilitate vaccine deliveries yet it seems the EU can do that.

 

(...) the EU can 'bend' those freedoms by exercising control over who companies can sell to.

The EU is not bending any rules. Sovereign states can restrict export of goods. And so can Johnson. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by cocoonclub

[Hi from France]

29 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Is the UK Culture Secretary good enough for you? https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/moderna-vaccine-arrive-uk-imminently-20272449

 

A few doses?

 

17 million in total to be exact.

what I read here is 

Quote

The UK has ordered 17 million jabs of the Moderna vaccine.

 

17 million is the total order, you have to look at the delivery schedule and as we learned, at the fact that someone might sign a contract after you but get priority 

 

for what it's worth, for the ModeRNA, we have ordered

• initial purchase of 80 million doses
• plus an option to request up to a further 80 million doses
• On 15 December , the Commission decided to purchase 80 million additional doses .
• On 17 February 300 million doses (150+150)

https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/public-health/eu-vaccines-strategy_en

 

 

as I remember total EU orders are 2 billions+

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

as we learned, at the fact that someone might sign a contract after you but get priority 

???????????? Bless you, thanks for the laugh

 

Now just waiting for a source to confirm that the EU will become the worlds largest vaccine producer, I need to cheer up my day ahead

Edited March 28, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[Hi from France]

a study of the real impact of covid = analyzing excess mortality data around the world

 

https://www.lesechos.fr/monde/enjeux-internationaux/covid-lamerique-latine-devance-largement-leurope-en-nombre-de-morts-1302201

 

just one figure called excess mortality march 2020 until feb 2021 (behind a paywall)

 

for those few who can read french, the the article is very interesting (pm me if you want access)

Edited March 29, 2021 by Hi from France

[polpott]

2 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Petty contract shenanigans, rogue clauses and nationalist pressure on a laboratory are not worthy of a big country. And there will be a fair backlash who starts now with AZ blocking

Petty contract shenanigans by the EU to disguise their failure to negotiate a timely and watertight contract. No rogue clauses except the after the event rouge clause inserted by the EU to prevent the UK from receiving their contracted doses. No pressure on manufacturers from UK other than trying to insist that their fairly negotiated contract is adhered to. A completely unfair backlash from the EU which the UK is dealing with by bringing on board Moderna.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Sorry but we absolutely WERE talking about the UK - my response was to a claim that the UK would do the same as the EU.

 

Secondly, there is no export control on vaccines in the UK currently and its highly unlikely there will be.  What's the point in talking about what the UK could do?  Any country can do anything at any time but we can only consider matters how they actually are.  If the UK was to impose any sort of restriction on vaccine exports, I would also criticise them for doing so.

 

 

The thread is about the EU restricting export through export licence approval.

 

Britain on Monday demanded the European Union allow the delivery of COVID-19 vaccines it has ordered as tensions over a possible export ban on EU-manufactured shots mounted and Brussels pointed an accusing finger at drugmaker AstraZeneca.

 

And note

 

AstraZeneca has told Brussels that the UK is using a clause in its supply contract that prevents exports of its vaccines until the British market is fully served, EU officials said.

 

So criticise away.

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

The thread is about the EU restricting export through export licence approval.

 

Britain on Monday demanded the European Union allow the delivery of COVID-19 vaccines it has ordered as tensions over a possible export ban on EU-manufactured shots mounted and Brussels pointed an accusing finger at drugmaker AstraZeneca.

 

And note

 

AstraZeneca has told Brussels that the UK is using a clause in its supply contract that prevents exports of its vaccines until the British market is fully served, EU officials said.

 

So criticise away.

It would be useful if you could provide a link to your cut and paste as we would know what you have posted is old news more than 1 week old

[david555]

13 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Which is totally irrelevant to this topic

Yes ...but o so a very truth ????????????

[candide]

8 hours ago, Hi from France said:

a study of the real impact of covid = analyzing excess mortality data around the world

 

https://www.lesechos.fr/monde/enjeux-internationaux/covid-lamerique-latine-devance-largement-leurope-en-nombre-de-morts-1302201

 

just one figure called excess mortality march 2020 until feb 2021 (behind a paywall)

 

for those few who can read french, the the article is very interesting (pm me if you want access)

The FT is also providing excess deaths figures (free to read article). These figures are only updated from time to time but It's easy to find the official Covid death numbers at that date for comparison.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

AstraZeneca has told Brussels that the UK is using a clause in its supply contract that prevents exports of its vaccines until the British market is fully served, EU officials said.

The clause I believe, is not one that blocks exports per se, the clause refers to the priority of orders.  So for example, if each of the UK countries had ordered their vaccines separately and Wales had the same clause in its contract, Wales would get their orders first.

 

Also as far as I know, the clause only applies to vaccines produced in the UK.  Astrazeneca has production sites and sub contactors around the globe.

 

Apart from all that, when some EU countries had large stocks of AZ vaccine, they weren't using them. Around 3 weeks ago it was reported that Germany for example, had only used 10% od its AZ stock yet at the very same time, the EU was complaining about deliveries and threatening action.

 

I don't think its right for ANY country to block exports of vaccines and if I found the UK were doing so I would not agree with that.  However, this is not a moral issue and it should not be possible for states to block the export of products from a private company.

 

That is the difference here, the UK is using its contract to obtain its supplies, it is not a state blocking exports.  You will no doubt say what's the difference? There is a difference - as I keep saying, the matter is contractual.  The EU failed to get its order in early enough and failed to agree a robust contract - that's where the root of this problem lies.

Edited March 29, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

10 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

The EU is not bending any rules. Sovereign states can restrict export of goods. And so can Johnson. 

Do I have to repeat this again?  It would require a change in the law for the UK to either block or restrict exports from the UK.  They probably could do so under the current emergency rules but such legislation could and I have no doubt would, be tested in the courts.  In the UK the government is not above the law and would have to comply with a court's decision.  Clearly I cannot say what the court's would decide but I think the state would find it very difficult to justify such action.

Edited March 29, 2021 by KhaoYai