Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[regedit]

I believe Arkady provided me the sample wording. All very simple.

Could you note which post number - can't find it in these 67 pages. Thanks.

[GarryP]

I believe Arkady provided me the sample wording. All very simple.

Could you note which post number - can't find it in these 67 pages. Thanks.

Here you go, with convoluted Thai translation thrown in taken from a copy of the Declaration I submitted:

"In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my British citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen."

Edited July 5, 2016 by GarryP

[Barty]

For more information see this article that was updated by myself in 2014 http://www.thaivisa.com/acquiring-thai-nationality.html .

Also see attached my translations of pertinent documents (except Nationality Act not my translation).

Guidelines for Application for Naturalization 14 Oct 2009 EN.doc

Documents required 2009 (2).doc

Points Allocation 2010 2 EN.doc

Nationality_Act_Eng_amended_until_2008.pdf

Are the above documents that Arkady provided still up to date and correct? Are there any amendments or changes?

Thanks,

Barty

[regedit]

I believe Arkady provided me the sample wording. All very simple.

Could you note which post number - can't find it in these 67 pages. Thanks.

Here you go, with convoluted Thai translation thrown in taken from a copy of the Declaration I submitted:

"In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my British citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen."

Thanks. So is this just a 'Statutory declaration' ? AFAIK the embassy staff simply sign and stamp against whatever you write and your done (save for a few baht).

[GarryP]

I believe Arkady provided me the sample wording. All very simple.

Could you note which post number - can't find it in these 67 pages. Thanks.

Here you go, with convoluted Thai translation thrown in taken from a copy of the Declaration I submitted:

"In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my British citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen."

Thanks. So is this just a 'Statutory declaration' ? AFAIK the embassy staff simply sign and stamp against whatever you write and your done (save for a few baht).

Exactly. They will give you a Statutory Declaration form and you write whatever you want. They will then sign and stamp it. It is not a few Baht though. It is a few thousand Baht.

[SWW]

Thanks. So is this just a 'Statutory declaration' ? AFAIK the embassy staff simply sign and stamp against whatever you write and your done (save for a few baht).

Exactly. They will give you a Statutory Declaration form and you write whatever you want. They will then sign and stamp it. It is not a few Baht though. It is a few thousand Baht.

2,750 THB a couple of weeks ago ...

[Arkady]

Thanks. So is this just a 'Statutory declaration' ? AFAIK the embassy staff simply sign and stamp against whatever you write and your done (save for a few baht).

Exactly. They will give you a Statutory Declaration form and you write whatever you want. They will then sign and stamp it. It is not a few Baht though. It is a few thousand Baht.

2,750 THB a couple of weeks ago ...

There are some rules relating to statutory declarations at the British consulates, so you cannot declare whatever you want. They are not allowed to certify any declaration that seems fraudulent, dishonest or for the purpose of an illegal activity etc etc. This one is clearly permitted, however, since it signifies an intention at a particular point in time to do something in the future which is reasonable and is also contingent on something else happening first. Someone earlier in this thread said he went to enquire about making a similar declaration at the US Embassy and was so put off by what the consular official told him there, that he decided not to proceed with his application. He was told to consider very carefully, as there might be some unspecified legal consequence if he failed to follow up on his declared intention, although it is hard to imagine what that could be.

[Arkady]

For more information see this article that was updated by myself in 2014 http://www.thaivisa.com/acquiring-thai-nationality.html .

Also see attached my translations of pertinent documents (except Nationality Act not my translation).

Guidelines for Application for Naturalization 14 Oct 2009 EN.doc

Documents required 2009 (2).doc

Points Allocation 2010 2 EN.doc

Nationality_Act_Eng_amended_until_2008.pdf

Are the above documents that Arkady provided still up to date and correct? Are there any amendments or changes?

Thanks,

Barty

As far as I know nothing has changed. The Nationality Act was amended again in 2012 but none of the amendments had any impact on naturalisation. To be sure you should check through the documents relating to applications for naturalisation on Special

Branch's website http://sbpolice.go.th/page-service1.php.

[yankee99]

Can someone let me know about the point system and if i am adding correctly?

1. age 55 8 point

2. diploma 5 points {i dont have a physical copy}

3. income married with children 80k per month 25 points

4. residence yellow tabien baan over 5 years 5 points

5. knowledge of Thailand? what type of questions and are they in thai or English?

6. Thai language how fluent do you need to be to get the 8 points

7. personality whay is that based on?

[skippybangkok]

I think u need the original and official translation to get the 5 points (?)

[Arkady]

Can someone let me know about the point system and if i am adding correctly?

1. age 55 8 point

2. diploma 5 points {i dont have a physical copy}

3. income married with children 80k per month 25 points

4. residence yellow tabien baan over 5 years 5 points

5. knowledge of Thailand? what type of questions and are they in thai or English?

6. Thai language how fluent do you need to be to get the 8 points

7. personality whay is that based on?

As Skippy said, you will definitely need a copy and most probably a certified translation of your diploma to score any points with it.

Knowledge of Thailand. The questions are multiple choice and, of course, in Thai. Questions can be about Thai geography, questions about the Royal Family, about the process for applying for Thai nationality (e.g. Q. At what point do you become officially Thai? A. When your name is published in the Royal Gazette) etc, etc. The questions are neither childishly simple nor fiendishly difficult but actually quite appropriate. Tip: brush up on vocab to do with applying for Thai nationality e.g. Royal Gazette, discretion of the minister, Special Branch, Interior Ministry, Nationality Act etc. Be able to recognise the official titles of key members of the Royal Family in Thai. Make sure you know how many provinces there are, the names of the regions in Thai etc. They may allow your wife to prompt you, assuming that she knows the answers herself, and the police may even prompt you themselves, if your case officer is well disposed towards you. However, things evolve and change and they can easily decide to do things differently without warning.

Thai language. When I did it in 2010, they told me I had got the 8 points for speaking understanding Thai from the meetings I had had with them in Thai during the application process. I think you need to be able to communicate with them decently one to one without needing to rely on help from a wife or other translator to get the 8 points. Again things might have changed and they might have a more formal test of oral Thai now. For reading I was asked to read a memo on the officer's desk out aloud and for writing I was asked to write the address of Special Branch but I believe they now have more formal reading and writing tests. The points for singing required being able to sing the two songs in front of the director of the Special Branch Nationality Section without making any mistakes.

I believe the points for personality were all at the discretion of the director of the Special Branch director, based on the interview with him. He asked general questions about my work, home and activities and some polite questions about my marriage. My wife was present in the interview and was asked some questions, even though I applied on the basis of PR, rather than PR. You should get full marks for personality, if you speak reasonable Thai and know how to speak politely to senior Thais, as well as make them laugh with a tasteful joke or two.

I believe you are right on your points for age, income and tabien baan. Good luck with the process.

[GarryP]

I just updated my motorcycle registration by changing the nationality and ID number to conform with my ID card at the Land Transport Department without any problems. However, when I went to the local Revenue Department Office to update my tax payers ID card to be the same as my ID card number, they said that I could not do it and that I should continue using my current tax payer's ID. They were adamant about this. Go figure!!!!!   

[nickcar]

Have the February lot been published yet? I am in the April lot and wondering how much longer

 

cheers

nick

[Jujus]

Hi all, quick question: how long does a PR holder have to wait before applying for citizenship? I keep reading contradictory information... Sometimes I read 5 years, sometimes 10 years. Which one is correct?

[THAIJAMES]

1 hour ago, Jujus said:

Hi all, quick question: how long does a PR holder have to wait before applying for citizenship? I keep reading contradictory information... Sometimes I read 5 years, sometimes 10 years. Which one is correct?

 

5 years if you are single.  You can apply right away if you are married but your won't get the full points.

Edited August 4, 2016 by THAIJAMES

[sas_cars]

2 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

 

5 years if you are single.  You can apply right away if you are married but your won't get the full points.

 

A bit wrong info. 5 years if you are not married to a thai. And right away if you are married to a thai for 3 years.

 

[Jujus]

Thank you THAIJAMES and sas_cars. And after applying, I guess it takes a looooong while before getting it (if it ever happens)...

[nickcar]

On 4 August 2016 at 11:45 AM, nickcar said:

Have the February lot been published yet? I am in the April lot and wondering how much longer

 

cheers

nick

Anybody know?

[Arkady]

On 8/4/2016 at 11:26 AM, GarryP said:

I just updated my motorcycle registration by changing the nationality and ID number to conform with my ID card at the Land Transport Department without any problems. However, when I went to the local Revenue Department Office to update my tax payers ID card to be the same as my ID card number, they said that I could not do it and that I should continue using my current tax payer's ID. They were adamant about this. Go figure!!!!!   

 

That's funny about the Revenue Department. I switched over to filing under my ID number when I got PR and they never said anything about it.  Then I joined a new company which stupidly applied for a foreigner's tax ID number for me, even though I told them I already a permanent ID number and gave them copies of all my documents.  So the company continued filing for me under the foreigner ID number, even after I pointed out their mistake, and I continued to file my annual return under my real ID number and somehow it never caused a problem.  

[Arkady]

The new constitution repeats the clause about Thai citizenship that was in the 2015 draft that got rejected by the NRC. 

 

Section 39  No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
Revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth of a person shall not be permitted.

 

The first sentence is nothing new.  It has been in the last several constitutions. This is the clause you should quote to those simpleton immigration officers who try to refuse entry on their Thai passports to dual national Thai wives and children on the grounds that they have blank Thai passports issued abroad.  

 

The second sentence has never appeared in a Thai constitution before, nor has there ever been any reference to acquisition or revocation of Thai citizenship.  Since the constitution outranks statutory laws, it clears up the ambiguity in the Nationality Act regarding Thais who naturalise as aliens and the confusion caused by the wording of Section 14 of the Nationality Act which many, including somewhat disingenuously some Interior Ministry officials in the Nationality Section,  have wrongly interpreted as meaning that half Thai children have to surrender their Thai nationality at the age of 20 or risk having it revoked, if they choose to retain foreign nationality.  Actually Section 14 provides the right but not the obligation to renounce Thai citizenship in these circumstances.

 

Interestingly Section 39 of the new constitution also would appear to contradict the Nationality Act which allows for revsocation of citizenship from those who are Thai through birth in the Kingdom to two foreign parents (since 1972 both parents must have permanent residence at the time of birth).  These Thais were traditionally the main targets for revocation of Thai citizenship and have accounted for nearly 100% of cases announced in the Royal Gazette to my knowledge. The only other revocation announcements I have seen have been of women who adopted their husbands' Thai nationality under Section 9 of the Nationality Act.  For them the only grounds for revocation are lying in the original application or offences against morality (only seen following conviction of a serious offence such as drug trafficking in Thailand or overseas).   That will leave naturalised Thais now as the only citizens that can lose their Thai nationality for maintaining excessive interest (undefined) in their former nationality or residing abroad for 5 years without maintaining residence in the Kingdom in addition to lying in their application or for offences against morality.  Obviously the original purpose of this measure was to control the vast numbers of Chinese immigrants who obtained Thai nationality through birth in Thailand to Chinese parents and maintained Chinese nationality and cultural identity (before China banned dual nationality in the 70s).   Many Chinese Thais lost their Thai citizenship for spending more than 5 years in China and in the Cold War, many found themselves separated from family in Thailand for 30 years,  as they were denied visas as well.  These revocations involving Chinese and Indian names, as well as one Brit, have continued until the late 2000s. 

 

There is no recorded case of which I am aware of a naturalised Thai or a Thai naturalised as an alien losing their Thai nationality involuntarily since 1965.  Prior to the 1965 Nationality Act prohibitions on dual citizenship were more explicit and there were cases of Thais having their citizenship revoked for naturalising as aliens, not to mention the most common cause which used to be women who married aliens and lost their Thai nationality automatically (as also happen in the UK, US and other Western countries).  Naturalised Thais used to often surrender their Thai citizenship voluntarily in order to recover their original nationalities when they returned home to counties like the UK that used to strictly prohibit dual nationality (until 1948 in the case of the UK).

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 11:36 PM, Arkady said:

 

That's funny about the Revenue Department. I switched over to filing under my ID number when I got PR and they never said anything about it.  Then I joined a new company which stupidly applied for a foreigner's tax ID number for me, even though I told them I already a permanent ID number and gave them copies of all my documents.  So the company continued filing for me under the foreigner ID number, even after I pointed out their mistake, and I continued to file my annual return under my real ID number and somehow it never caused a problem.  

 

That would most likely be because they have no control whatsoever more than that they don't care, I would probably worry a bit about that. They may check one day and ask difficult questions. That the company you work for did wrong is not their concern. On the other hand, Thai's aren't "a principle is a principle" really so evidence that they really got what they were owed should be enough

 

Keep evidence, including emails to HR

[GeneralWoundwort]

On 10 July 2016 at 10:34 PM, Arkady said:

There are some rules relating to statutory declarations at the British consulates, so you cannot declare whatever you want. They are not allowed to certify any declaration that seems fraudulent, dishonest or for the purpose of an illegal activity etc etc. This one is clearly permitted, however, since it signifies an intention at a particular point in time to do something in the future which is reasonable and is also contingent on something else happening first. Someone earlier in this thread said he went to enquire about making a similar declaration at the US Embassy and was so put off by what the consular official told him there, that he decided not to proceed with his application. He was told to consider very carefully, as there might be some unspecified legal consequence if he failed to follow up on his declared intention, although it is hard to imagine what that could be.

 

I planned to apply for PR this year, but officials at Counter D recommended I apply for Thai citizenship instead. I was quite enthused until I saw the requirement to renounce my current (British) citizenship. I thought dual citizenship was allowed in Thailand but clearly I'm mistaken. It's a shame because citizenship has many more advantages than PR, but this declaration seems like a serious step to take.

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, GeneralWoundwort said:

 

I planned to apply for PR this year, but officials at Counter D recommended I apply for Thai citizenship instead. I was quite enthused until I saw the requirement to renounce my current (British) citizenship. I thought dual citizenship was allowed in Thailand but clearly I'm mistaken. It's a shame because citizenship has many more advantages than PR, but this declaration seems like a serious step to take.

You do not have to renounce your citizenship to get Thai citizenship. As part of the application you have to do a statement that you intend to do it. But after getting it you do not have to do it.

Read back in this topic a few pages in this topic I you will find it discussed.

[stbkk]

I don't think anybody who has had to provide the statement has actually got to the stage where they have received citizenship yet, as it is a fairly new requirement.

I myself will be very interested to know what happens when they do get that far.

While I would be interested in getting citizenship myself I am not going to renounce my British citizenship to get it, and I do not feel comfortable providing a statement in my application which is 100% false!

[ubonjoe]

19 minutes ago, stbkk said:

I don't think anybody who has had to provide the statement has actually got to the stage where they have received citizenship yet, as it is a fairly new requirement.

I myself will be very interested to know what happens when they do get that far.

While I would be interested in getting citizenship myself I am not going to renounce my British citizenship to get it, and I do not feel comfortable providing a statement in my application which is 100% false!

That requirement started in 2009. I would say all of those that got their approval in the latest batch had done the declaration.

Perhaps read Arkady's or GarryP 's  content. They did the declaration and now have Thai nationality and their other nationality.

[stbkk]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That requirement started in 2009. I would say all of those that got their approval in the latest batch had done the declaration.

Perhaps read Arkady's or GarryP 's  content. They did the declaration and now have Thai nationality and their other nationality.

Thats interesting I thought is was much more recent than that. I have been following the threads about citizenship, and have not seen anything. I even asked the question directly a while back, and got no replies.

Guys? Anybody got their Thai ID card after signing the statement? If so what happened please?

[GarryP]

4 minutes ago, stbkk said:

Thats interesting I thought is was much more recent than that. I have been following the threads about citizenship, and have not seen anything. I even asked the question directly a while back, and got no replies.

Guys? Anybody got their Thai ID card after signing the statement? If so what happened please?

Look at my posts #1655 and 1657 (the previous page ). I have my Thai ID card and passport. I signed the declaration a few years ago as it was required as part of the supporting documents. The British Embassy officer just found it amusing when legalizing/stamping the declaration. 

 

No one from officialdom has followed up with me about pursuing revocation of my British citizenship. Brits can hold multiple citizenships anyway, so Brit officials are not going to come after you. As to the Thai authorities, I do not think that they would start making waves about it as quite a number of the Thai elite carry passports of other countries.

 

Sorry about the semantics, but it is a declaration of intention. How many things do you intend to do that you don't follow through on. I don't know about you, but for me quite a few.  Intentions can and do change by their very nature. 

[stbkk]

57 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Look at my posts #1655 and 1657 (the previous page ). I have my Thai ID card and passport. I signed the declaration a few years ago as it was required as part of the supporting documents. The British Embassy officer just found it amusing when legalizing/stamping the declaration. 

 

No one from officialdom has followed up with me about pursuing revocation of my British citizenship. Brits can hold multiple citizenships anyway, so Brit officials are not going to come after you. As to the Thai authorities, I do not think that they would start making waves about it as quite a number of the Thai elite carry passports of other countries.

 

Sorry about the semantics, but it is a declaration of intention. How many things do you intend to do that you don't follow through on. I don't know about you, but for me quite a few.  Intentions can and do change by their very nature. 

 

Thanks for the reply Garry, I did see your previous posts but they seemed to be about the mechanics of getting the statement authorised at the embassy, and never mentioned what happened about it when you were granted citizenship (unless I missed that part - quite possible!). Its nice to know they didn't follow up on it. 
 

I'm not sure I agree with you about the authorities, though. While as you say many of the elite carry other passports as well as Thai, the big difference is that they are 'born' Thai rather than naturalised. My own son has 2 passports and I'm sure will never have any problems because he holds his Thai (and UK, of course) nationality through birth.

 

And finally my personal chice of not wanting to sign an intention that I know I will never follow through on, and isn't even my intention when I sign it. That of course is entirely my own fault/personal choice, but remains the show stopper as far as I'm concerned.

 

One final comment on it all is that if this route to citizenship had been around when I started my PR application back in 2006, I might well have thought seriously about it then. But after waiting nearly 6 years to get my PR, I'm not sure I would want to go through another few (3-4?) years of Thai-style paperwork shuffling, stress and waiting even if I didn't have to sign the declaration!  

[GarryP]

15 hours ago, stbkk said:

 

Thanks for the reply Garry, I did see your previous posts but they seemed to be about the mechanics of getting the statement authorised at the embassy, and never mentioned what happened about it when you were granted citizenship (unless I missed that part - quite possible!). Its nice to know they didn't follow up on it. 
 

I'm not sure I agree with you about the authorities, though. While as you say many of the elite carry other passports as well as Thai, the big difference is that they are 'born' Thai rather than naturalised. My own son has 2 passports and I'm sure will never have any problems because he holds his Thai (and UK, of course) nationality through birth.

 

And finally my personal chice of not wanting to sign an intention that I know I will never follow through on, and isn't even my intention when I sign it. That of course is entirely my own fault/personal choice, but remains the show stopper as far as I'm concerned.

 

One final comment on it all is that if this route to citizenship had been around when I started my PR application back in 2006, I might well have thought seriously about it then. But after waiting nearly 6 years to get my PR, I'm not sure I would want to go through another few (3-4?) years of Thai-style paperwork shuffling, stress and waiting even if I didn't have to sign the declaration!  

I understand where you are coming from about the stress of it all. It was exceedingly stressful for me as a lot was going on in my life at the time and I thought I no longer qualified as a result of a death during the process. I applied based on marriage, not PR.  

 

However, where we differ is that giving up British citizenship would not have been a deal stopper for me. I have lived here for 34 years now, my son (27 years old), who is a dual citizen, lives here and despite being a "luk kreung" only thinks of himself as Thai. I too think of Thailand as my home. Having citizenship cemented that even further.  

[GeneralWoundwort]

Thanks for all the replies. I agree that it's highly unlikely the British government would ever follow up on it. Yet, like stbkk, I would be uncomfortable officially declaring such an intention. I'll give it some more thought, but I'm minded to apply for PR given this requirement.