Could you lose your domicile UK status

[superal]

Because of the covid 19 pandemic the Thai immigration has relaxed visa regulations i.e. extended visa end dates and in some cases some long term tourists could be nearing a 2 year out of the UK period .  According to the UK government rules after an absence of 2 years or more you will lose your domicility and for an example no more free NHS treatment , another might be your UK tax arrangements , also pension rights .       Unless you know better such as an amnesty ?

[puchooay]

I lived in Thailand for 21 years. Returned to UK in 2019. I have not had any problems with NHS or tax arrangements. It's just like I have never been away.

[EVENKEEL]

 

[Monokuro]

Unless you submitted a P85 form to Hmrc I don't think they'd know you left anyway.

[Pilotman]

There are not, or at least pre covid there were not, any exit checks from UK, only entry checks.  So unless you told them you left, pre covid, they still think you are there. The 'them', is just a stupid computer programme, not Special branch or MI6/5. unless of course you are a wanted criminal or on a terrorist watch list.  

[izod10]

Big Brother always watching? nothing further from the truth,to say pensioners or anybody are being watched is beyond belief,..people here for years and years getting by on ever decreasing pension buying power,makes me wonder how they manage to get out of bed in the morning,let alone getting into it,perhaps they never left that teddy bear they never let go of from childhood

[treetops]

4 hours ago, Pilotman said:

There are not, or at least pre covid there were not, any exit checks from UK, only entry checks.  So unless you told them you left, pre covid, they still think you are there. The 'them', is just a stupid computer programme, not Special branch or MI6/5. unless of course you are a wanted criminal or on a terrorist watch list.  

 

They could find out for most folk from airlines Advanced Passenger Information data, but in most cases have no interest in doing so.

[theoldgit]

15 hours ago, Pilotman said:

There are not, or at least pre covid there were not, any exit checks from UK, only entry checks.  So unless you told them you left, pre covid, they still think you are there.   

 

Whilst it's certainly true that there are no longer any regular embarkation controls when leaving the UK, all carriers, be they airlines, ferries or Eurostar, record all departures and pass them onto the the UKBA, this requirement was brought in a few years ago to address the issue of no regular controls when leaving.
Whilst this system was designed to identify overstayers on the system, it could in theory record UK citizens movements, but that would mean a joined up database.
A Shadow Home Secretary once told me that the absence of a joined up database between the Home Office and other Goverment Departments was unacceptable, adding that when he became Home Secretary he would change that, well he did become Home Secretrary and nothing happened, though it could have happened since.  

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, izod10 said:

Big Brother always watching? nothing further from the truth,to say pensioners or anybody are being watched is beyond belief,..people here for years and years getting by on ever decreasing pension buying power,makes me wonder how they manage to get out of bed in the morning,let alone getting into it,perhaps they never left that teddy bear they never let go of from childhood

The DWP declared they had no current address for 40% of pensioners a while back.

The chances of them knowing where you are, without you volunteering the information is ZERO.

[Oxx]

17 hours ago, superal said:

According to the UK government rules after an absence of 2 years or more you will lose your domicility

 

I'm guessing that should be "domicile", and there's no such rule.  In fact, domicile is extremely hard to lose.  One can live abroad for decades and still be UK-domiciled in the eyes of HMRC.

[Chongalulu]

24 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The DWP declared they had no current address for 40% of pensioners a while back.

The chances of them knowing where you are, without you volunteering the information is ZERO.

There’s a system labeled 'connectivity' whereby on an increasing basis government departments are sharing information. I  registered with a new doctor when in uk staying with my daughter and subsequent letters I received from DWP and then HMRC came to that address rather than my other registered uk address. Apply to renew your driving licence and they can digitally lift your photograph from your passport. Renew your passport in thailand and that’ll also send a message . Not as it was,my friend 

[soi3eddie]

18 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

I'm guessing that should be "domicile", and there's no such rule.  In fact, domicile is extremely hard to lose.  One can live abroad for decades and still be UK-domiciled in the eyes of HMRC.

 

Yes, HMRC are very reluctant to allow anyone to escape their tax net.

 

[Brierley]

It's very difficult to loose your domicile, even if you are trying to, too many factors prevent that such as state pension, bank account, relatives, history of visits. If you really want to loose your domicile you have to really work at it and two years absent from the UK isn't enough. NHS eligibility is a different subject, that typically requires UK residence for six months out of each year but there are few checks to monitor that.

[Guderian]

25 minutes ago, Brierley said:

It's very difficult to loose your domicile, even if you are trying to, too many factors prevent that such as state pension, bank account, relatives, history of visits. If you really want to loose your domicile you have to really work at it and two years absent from the UK isn't enough. NHS eligibility is a different subject, that typically requires UK residence for six months out of each year but there are few checks to monitor that.

 

29 minutes ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Yes, HMRC are very reluctant to allow anyone to escape their tax net.

 

 

Correct, I had this discussion a few years ago with a professional legacy planner in the UK. People confuse domicile with residence, and they are not the same thing at all. It's easy to change your residence, but extremely difficult to change your domicile. You have to cut literally all ties to the UK, if you own a property there, or visit it at all, or even if your main source of income is a pension from the UK, they can treat any of them as a reason to decide that you have not cut your ties sufficiently to alter your domicile. Even worse, if you do try to jump through all the hoops, they will usually refuse to confirm that you have done enough so you're left in limbo anyway. And why does it matter? Because if you are UK-domiciled when you die, as almost all of us Brits will be then, no matter where you live in the world, HMRC will still have first claim to pick the bones of your estate clean for tax under UK law. My lawyer here in Thailand has told me of cases they have been involved in where HMRC took a person's estate to court in Thailand to try and claim the tax owing on it under English law. Also, remember, the generous £325,000 IHT-free allowance on your estate only applies to beneficiaries with a UK domicile, your Thai wife and family are unlikely to be regarded as having that unless they've lived in the UK and have residence rights there, so a limited IHT-free allowance applies (not sure how much, but around £55,000 I think). As they say, death and taxes, lol.

[topt]

17 minutes ago, Guderian said:

Also, remember, the generous £325,000 IHT-free allowance on your estate only applies to beneficiaries with a UK domicile,

Do you have any reference for this?

My understanding is the allowance was £325k and did not make any difference who the beneficiaries are. 

I am not sure about the extra £325k (making £650k) if married or in a civil partnership but I cannot see any reason why different.

 

Nothing mentioned here for example (but not suggesting that this is 100% substantive ????)

https://www.pensiontimes.co.uk/finance/tax-planning/a-guide-to-uk-inheritance-tax-if-you-live-abroad

[izod10]

1 hour ago, nchuckle said:

There’s a system labeled 'connectivity' whereby on an increasing basis government departments are sharing information. I  registered with a new doctor when in uk staying with my daughter and subsequent letters I received from DWP and then HMRC came to that address rather than my other registered uk address. Apply to renew your driving licence and they can digitally lift your photograph from your passport. Renew your passport in thailand and that’ll also send a message . Not as it was,my friend 

Keep to UK address in UK,even change address in UK that would surely happen,however sticking to UK address is important  I have renewed PP in Thailand,renewed DL too,twice in Thailand,no problem..no messaging

Edited April 13, 2021 by izod10

[topt]

19 hours ago, superal said:

According to the UK government rules after an absence of 2 years or more you will lose your domicility

Nobody questioned yet where the OP got this from?

Citation please?

[Oxx]

57 minutes ago, Guderian said:

Also, remember, the generous £325,000 IHT-free allowance on your estate only applies to beneficiaries with a UK domicile

 

This is clearly wrong.  The IHT allowance is on the estate of the person who has died.  Nothing to do with who the beneficiaries are.

 

From the back of my mind, I think what you may be thinking of is something like, if husband and wife are both British, the husband's estate (for example) can be passed to the wife, and his IHT-allowance be passed to her, so that when she dies the estate has a combined (i.e. double) IHT allowance.  The amount that can be passed if the wife is not British is considerably reduced.

[Kwasaki]

19 hours ago, superal said:

According to the UK government rules after an absence of 2 years or more you will lose your domiciliary

and for an example no more free NHS treatment ,

another might be your UK tax arrangements ,

also pension rights .

This is how I understand my situation.

 

The 2 year rule has been the case for a long time, there would be concessions to this with a person returning to the UK because of the pandemic. 

 

NHS emergency is free to anyone in a emergency visit.

 

I have no address in the UK or property only a bank account.

The tax people got in touch with me when my UK govt pension and private pensions were due, my tax affairs were settled then.

 

A person remains a UK citizen with your UK passport.

 

UK govt pension rights are only affected if a person has not paid the minimum NI contributions which is 35 years at the moment. 

If a persons UK pension was due while they were stuck in Thailand because of the pandemic then that would up to the person to contact the DWP.

 

 

[hotandsticky]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/deemed-domicile-rules

 

Domicile status

Losing deemed domicile status

You can lose deemed domiciled status under Condition B, if you leave the UK and there are at least 6 tax years as a non UK resident in the 20 tax years before the relevant tax year.

If you acquire a domicile of choice outside of the UK

If you were born in the UK and have a UK domicile of origin at birth, you can acquire a domicile of choice outside the UK under common law, if you’ve resided in another country or law territory with the intention of staying there permanently.

If you then return to the UK on or after 6 April 2017 and become UK resident for that year, you will automatically be deemed domiciled in the UK for tax purposes, under Condition A.

[topt]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

The 2 year rule has been the case for a long time,

Does not appear to be the case now as others have said and I think you have mentioned this before in discussions about "domicile".  I have seen references to 3 years from 2014 but never 2.

The quote above from @hotandsticky comes from rules introduced since 2017.

Whilst you may have changed your domicile of choice (or believe you have) it does not appear to have anything to do with 2 years.

One view on current rules with ref to IHT-

https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/uk-inheritance-tax-the-domicile-trap

 

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

16 minutes ago, topt said:

Does not appear to be the case now as others have said and I think you have mentioned this before in discussions about "domicile".  I have seen references to 3 years from 2014 but never 2.

The quote above from @hotandsticky comes from rules introduced since 2017.

Whilst you may have changed your domicile of choice (or believe you have) it does not appear to have anything to do with 2 years.

One view on current rules with ref to IHT-

https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/uk-inheritance-tax-the-domicile-trap

Yes I concur I had read many things on the govt website 20 years ago and many things have been changed since I left UK. 

 

I think the having an address in UK has a lot to do with things whether legit or not I never got away with it. ????

Reading the DVLA site I remember something about 2 years out the country with a UK DL I understand it that should surrender your UK DL and get a DL in the country where you reside. 

[Jesse123]

Very difficult to establish a domicile of choice in Thailand if your extension of stay is only valid year by year. UK residence status is governed by law whilst domicile is a common law concept used in the tax statutes. Many Court cases dealing with domicile.

[Brierley]

I believe there is a different application of domicile depending on whether it refers to income or IHT. A person can achieve non-dom. status for residency and income purposes, whether or not HMRC would apply that same status to IHT is dubious.

[superal]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

The DWP declared they had no current address for 40% of pensioners a while back.

The chances of them knowing where you are, without you volunteering the information is ZERO.

What I do know is the DWP will write to your last known UK address ( I think it applies to the over 70 year olds ), once every 2 years , to check up that you are still alive and if they do not receive a signed reply they will stop your pension , not freeze but will stop until you make  contact with them . 

 NHS treatment , they will and do ask questions about your UK residency plus any long standing illness treatment will need a referral from your doctor who will also be asking questions as above . Having a UK property will make things easier . A landline also has some credence . 

Retaining a valid UK passport seems to be an important document ,   also an in date full UK driving licence .  

There was just 2 weeks ago a UK census but not sure how that works regarding big brother . 

[BritManToo]

18 minutes ago, superal said:

What I do know is the DWP will write to your last known UK address ( I think it applies to the over 70 year olds ), once every 2 years , to check up that you are still alive and if they do not receive a signed reply they will stop your pension

That's only for people that have declared themselves living overseas.

There are no 'proof of life' letters for pensioners living in the uK.

Pension is linked to ONS.

Edited April 13, 2021 by BritManToo

[BusyB]

8 hours ago, Brierley said:

It's very difficult to loose your domicile, even if you are trying to, too many factors prevent that such as state pension, bank account, relatives, history of visits. If you really want to loose your domicile you have to really work at it and two years absent from the UK isn't enough. NHS eligibility is a different subject, that typically requires UK residence for six months out of each year but there are few checks to monitor that.

 

Yes, I believe you actually have to renounce domicile.

[Oxx]

20 minutes ago, BusyB said:

Yes, I believe you actually have to renounce domicile.

 

Not true.

[izod10]

1 hour ago, superal said:

What I do know is the DWP will write to your last known UK address ( I think it applies to the over 70 year olds ), once every 2 years , to check up that you are still alive and if they do not receive a signed reply they will stop your pension , not freeze but will stop until you make  contact with them . 

 NHS treatment , they will and do ask questions about your UK residency plus any long standing illness treatment will need a referral from your doctor who will also be asking questions as above . Having a UK property will make things easier . A landline also has some credence . 

Retaining a valid UK passport seems to be an important document ,   also an in date full UK driving licence .  

There was just 2 weeks ago a UK census but not sure how that works regarding big brother . 

Nah  wrong again

  Nobody asks about anything NHS  and if they do  so what? never been anywhere,nobody writes to UK address DWP  cept twice a year % increase and actually receive  both want ripping up    I'm on census reply too

 

The one that matters is UK Lottery  ,now that I know,they do check big winners  180 days spent in UK in year before,credit reference agency does the checking

[BritManToo]

18 minutes ago, izod10 said:

The one that matters is UK Lottery  ,now that I know,they do check big winners  180 days spent in UK in year before,credit reference agency does the checking

That's not all that accurate either.

I needed a credit check for taking my company pension last year, I suggested they used my last address in the UK (from 10 years back). Worked just fine, just use your last known address, nobody updates anything as far as I can see.