Chauvin Guilty....

[Thomas J]

7 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

He broke protocol. 

Perhaps you should do some research before you shoot from the hip.  The technique used by Chauvin is one TAUGHT by the Minneapolis Police.  It is to be used when efforts to restrain the individual by more conventional means have proved futile.  Mr. Floyd beat his head against the police cruiser windows and was unruly while in the car.  

You may not agree with the knee restraint but it is within protocol. 

 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-training-materials-show-knee-to-neck-restraint-similar-to-used-on-george-floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496
 

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Never mind, all those social workers they are going to recruit will do a great job preventing crime, I'm sure.

Preventing crime is a propagandist's fantasy. It is impossible to prevent crime. Solving crimes is doable, but for the most part U.S. police are statistically terrible at solving serious crime. Without a doubt social workers are more appropriate than police for responding to mental health issues, wellness checks, domestics, and most interactions with the public other than serious criminal activity.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Preventing crime is a propagandist's fantasy. It is impossible to prevent crime. Solving crimes is doable, but for the most part U.S. police are statistically terrible at solving serious crime. Without a doubt social workers are more appropriate than police for responding to mental health issues, wellness checks, domestics, and most interactions with the public other than serious criminal activity.

No argument from me on that, but how many social workers are going to approach a violent person without police backup? If I were one I wouldn't. When nurses in a hospital are getting assaulted, there's no way it's safe out there, IMO.

 

BTW, community policing as it used to be practiced with cops walking a beat is a good way to reduce crime.

Edited April 21, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[mikebike]

7 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Perhaps you should do some research before you shoot from the hip.  The technique used by Chauvin is one TAUGHT by the Minneapolis Police.  It is to be used when efforts to restrain the individual by more conventional means have proved futile.  Mr. Floyd beat his head against the police cruiser windows and was unruly while in the car.  

You may not agree with the knee restraint but it is within protocol. 

 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-training-materials-show-knee-to-neck-restraint-similar-to-used-on-george-floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496
 

Not according to those testifying.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/06/live-updates-chauvin-trial-resumes-after-police-chief-condemns-officer-absolutely-violating-policy-while-restraining-floyd/

[Thomas J]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

Not according to those testifying.

I did not see any testimony regarding it one way or another.  However according to ABC News the use of the technique in Minneapolis is not unique. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-neck-restraints-five-years-n1220416

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

Not according to those testifying.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/06/live-updates-chauvin-trial-resumes-after-police-chief-condemns-officer-absolutely-violating-policy-while-restraining-floyd/

IMO that police chief will have lost any respect the cops under him had for him.

[faraday]

Let's try & discuss this cooly, please.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, bobbin said:

Some might say this shows a lack of a moral compass..

 

Willing to jettison your belief for short term benefit.

 

I'm sure your house is insured..

 

they have yet to bring anyone back from the dead.

 

they have yet to bring anyone back from the dead.

 

including all the cops killed in the line of duty.

https://www.winonadailynews.com/news/state-and-regional/mn/article_e6fafcee-9da5-11de-a78c-001cc4c03286.html

A North St. Paul police officer who died in the line of duty was shot once in the head with his own weapon by a man who first attacked the officer with a cloth he'd set on fire, officials said Wednesday.

[mikebike]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No argument from me on that, but how many social workers are going to approach a violent person without police backup? If I were one I wouldn't. When nurses in a hospital are getting assaulted, there's no way it's safe out there, IMO.

The question which is obvious from seeing many interactions filmed now is: did the arrival of, and interaction with, police serve to diffuse the situation or ramp it up? From what I have seen, it is the police presence and actions which tend to turn a completely handleable situation into a violent one.

 

Maybe social workers who do want this job will be less afraid than the police and able to deal with situations and diffusion like other western countries do... With respect and compassion for their fellow citizens in normal everyday interactions.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, faraday said:

Let's try & discuss this cooly, please.

 

 

It's not a cool subject and strong feelings are involved.

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I did not see any testimony regarding it one way or another. 

And apparently you felt the need for further uniformed comment without reading the link provided. The testimony happened whether YOU saw it or not.

[mikebike]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

they have yet to bring anyone back from the dead.

 

including all the cops killed in the line of duty.

https://www.winonadailynews.com/news/state-and-regional/mn/article_e6fafcee-9da5-11de-a78c-001cc4c03286.html

A North St. Paul police officer who died in the line of duty was shot once in the head with his own weapon by a man who first attacked the officer with a cloth he'd set on fire, officials said Wednesday.

Interesting take. Cops voluntarily sign up for a semi-dangerous job fully knowing what their careers will entail.

 

Normal citizens do not go out the door everyday expecting to be in life or death situations.

 

Don't be a cop if you are afraid of the job. Pretty simple.

[Thomas J]

4 minutes ago, mikebike said:

And apparently you felt the need for further uniformed comment without reading the link provided. The testimony happened whether YOU saw it or not.

And apparently you did not read the links that well before the trial, showed it as a training technique, and the ABC article showing that the technique had been used dozens of times by Minneapolis Police.  The testimony or lack thereof does not establish anything other than it was potentially not covered at trial.  The articles do show it was taught, and there were numerous I stress numerous times the knee restraint had been used. 

 

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post and replies have been removed also off topic post and replies

[Thomas J]

If you will note, this case is extremely similar to the George Floyd incident.  The main difference is the man voluntarily went into the Dallas County Jail.  He was indicating he was "seeking help"  The police officer who happened to be black, kneeled on the man's neck.  The victim happened to be White.  The man had a history of heart disease, and on drugs at the time of his death. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide.  However a grand jury did not bring charges against any of the officers.  They found it was impossible to ignore the heart disease and drug use as also being associated with causing the mans death.  

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2016/06/15/dallas-county-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-4-in-jail-lobby-death-of-arlington-man/

[bobbin]

8 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

And apparently you did not read the links that well before the trial, showed it as a training technique, and the ABC article showing that the technique had been used dozens of times by Minneapolis Police.  The testimony or lack thereof does not establish anything other than it was potentially not covered at trial.  The articles do show it was taught, and there were numerous I stress numerous times the knee restraint had been used. 

 

To the point of death?

[GroveHillWanderer]

46 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

And apparently you did not read the links that well before the trial, showed it as a training technique, and the ABC article showing that the technique had been used dozens of times by Minneapolis Police.  The testimony or lack thereof does not establish anything other than it was potentially not covered at trial.  The articles do show it was taught, and there were numerous I stress numerous times the knee restraint had been used. 

I'm not sure why you keep flogging this dead horse. Whether it can still be found in some police training materials (of what age, we don't know) and whether it was used before - even if that were multiple times, it is incontrovertible that not just one, but multiple law enforcement officers took the stand and gave sworn testimony that Chauvin's use of the neck restraint was not what he was trained to do and was not according to protocol.

 

As well as the police chief, others who testified to this effect were Police Lt. Johnny Mercil, the use-of-force coordinator for the Minneapolis Police department and Los Angeles Police Sgt. Jody Stiger. (As I recall, there were also others, I just couldn't find their names on my very rapid Google search just now).

 

Experts testify in Derek Chauvin trial

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

Preventing crime is a propagandist's fantasy. It is impossible to prevent crime. 

 

Right and that's the reason that all countries the world over have a uniform crime rate.  Oh, wait...

[Thomas J]

26 minutes ago, bobbin said:

To the point of death?

Bobbin,

 

Do you really think that while being video taped, with multiple witnesses, and his own body cam operating he "intended" to kill Mr. Floyd.  

You will notice that Dr. David Fowler - Former Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland said "he would have ruled the cause of death to be indeterminate" 

 

Forensic pathologist David Fowler told the court in Minnesota that the cause of Mr Floyd's death was not clear.
 

Mr Fowler said in his view, drug use, heart disease and other factors contributed to Mr Floyd's death.

He specifically stated that if Mr. Floyd did not have any heart problems, nor was he involved in any altercation with police and still he died would the cause of death been ruled a drug overdose given the level of Fetanyl in his system.  He said yes.  

Again, was the knee to his neck a "contributing factor"  probably.  However if he was not on drugs would he still have died from the knee being on his neck.  How can one know? 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56753298

 

 

[Thomas J]

15 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not sure why you keep flogging this dead horse. Whether it can still be found in some police training materials (of what age, we don't know) and whether it was used before - even if that were multiple times, it is incontrovertible that not just one, but multiple law enforcement officers took the stand and gave sworn testimony that Chauvin's use of the neck restraint was not what he was trained to do and was not according to protocol.

 

As well as the police chief, others who testified to this effect were Police Lt. Johnny Mercil, the use-of-force coordinator for the Minneapolis Police department and Los Angeles Police Sgt. Jody Stiger. (As I recall, there were also others, I just couldn't find their names oUse-Of-Force Expert Says Former Cop's Actions Were 'Justified' In Restraining George Floyd - Bing videon my very rapid Google search just now).

 

Experts testify in Derek Chauvin trial

 

 

 

It depends on "which expert" you are quoting. 

 

 

 

 

[cmarshall]

4 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Bobbin,

 

Do you really think that while being video taped, with multiple witnesses, and his own body cam operating he "intended" to kill Mr. Floyd.  

You will notice that Dr. David Fowler - Former Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland said "he would have ruled the cause of death to be indeterminate" 

 

Forensic pathologist David Fowler told the court in Minnesota that the cause of Mr Floyd's death was not clear.
 

Mr Fowler said in his view, drug use, heart disease and other factors contributed to Mr Floyd's death.

He specifically stated that if Mr. Floyd did not have any heart problems, nor was he involved in any altercation with police and still he died would the cause of death been ruled a drug overdose given the level of Fetanyl in his system.  He said yes.  

Again, was the knee to his neck a "contributing factor"  probably.  However if he was not on drugs would he still have died from the knee being on his neck.  How can one know? 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56753298
 

 

 

Fowler is a hack medical examiner who resigned from his job as the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland for criticism of his autopsy in the case of a police killing of a black man in that state for which he is being sued by the family of the victim.

 

Both the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, who testified at the trial, and Dr. Michael Baden, a well-known forensic pathologist, who conducted an autopsy at the request of the Floyd family, gave the manner of death as homicide, while they disagreed slightly on the cause of death.

 

So, this attempt to blame George Floyd for his own murder at the hands of Chauvin is vacuous.

[tifino]

on the telly news over here in OZ, the main essence of the news report centred on how 46 is going to 'change America' because of all this. 

 

 

Is this the next cog turn for the Wokes'  Great Reset?

 

pity, was looking forward to being protected by   

 

 

[Bruno123]

16 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Bobbin,

 

Do you really think that while being video taped, with multiple witnesses, and his own body cam operating he "intended" to kill Mr. Floyd.  

You will notice that Dr. David Fowler - Former Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland said "he would have ruled the cause of death to be indeterminate" 

 

Forensic pathologist David Fowler told the court in Minnesota that the cause of Mr Floyd's death was not clear.
 

Mr Fowler said in his view, drug use, heart disease and other factors contributed to Mr Floyd's death.

He specifically stated that if Mr. Floyd did not have any heart problems, nor was he involved in any altercation with police and still he died would the cause of death been ruled a drug overdose given the level of Fetanyl in his system.  He said yes.  

Again, was the knee to his neck a "contributing factor"  probably.  However if he was not on drugs would he still have died from the knee being on his neck.  How can one know? 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56753298

 

 

 

 

Yes, I believe he didn't care either way; which is as good as stating that he intended to kill.

 

If you can give me a reason why he would feel the need to kneel on the neck of someone who is lying on his handcuffs and not resisting, I am all ears.

 

Why not simply let up to see if there is an issue? There were enough police to simply hold him down if he tried anything. He didn't because he didn't care what happened. He assumed that he would get away with it. Why not mention the history of the man and the complaints against him even before this incident.

 

That it the real meaning of Black Lives Matter. It's because they police simply don't need to care whether they die or not; because they are protected. Now hopefully, they will use other effective, but not lethal ways to restrain when there is no danger to themselves.

Stop trying to protect murderers and instead speak up for the guys and gals who are out there doing a good job, but not murdering people and expecting to get away with it. You should be ashamed of yourself....but I know that you are not.

[Bruno123]

2 minutes ago, tifino said:

on the telly news over here in OZ, the main essence of the news report centred on how 46 is going to 'change America' because of all this. 

 

 

Is this the next cog turn for the Wokes'  Great Reset?

 

pity, was looking forward to being protected by   

 

 

 

 

Oh dear...didn't expect that it would take this long for the racists to appear. Guaranteed that you would not be here in the suspect were not black. 100%.

This isn't about a petty criminal, it's about race and that is why you have posted.

 

Only the racist right wing use such terms to try to demean, insult and demonise.

 

Try getting your point over without name calling and insults. What is it exactly?

[Thomas J]

10 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Fowler is a hack medical examiner

I guess he was "good enough' to be the chief medical examiner for the entire state of Maryland. 

Speaking strictly as a layman, I don't know how any medical examiner can dismiss the fact that Mr. Floyd had serious heart problems, and had a potentially lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system.  It is agreed that Mr. Floyd died from lack of oxygen.  Note one of the symptoms of a Fetanyl overdose is hypoxia.  Mr. Floyd was already complaining of not being able to breath long before being restrained.  Again, how does one separate the lack of oxygen due to the knee restraint versus the drug overdose.  

If it was only the knee that was causing the breathing difficulties, then why was Mr. Floyd on video tape saying "he could not breathe" while being arrested, and sitting in the patrol car?  




https://www.foxla.com/news/court-filings-medical-examiner-thought-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-system?fbclid=IwAR1LLOOe22aG-BTrel-tl_nPiQjoZ14Hi01Nfz4A3rctophHo4T9yZlynq0

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/fentanyl#:~:text=An overdose occurs when a,brain%2C a condition called hypoxia.

 

[Bruno123]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

If you will note, this case is extremely similar to the George Floyd incident.  The main difference is the man voluntarily went into the Dallas County Jail.  He was indicating he was "seeking help"  The police officer who happened to be black, kneeled on the man's neck.  The victim happened to be White.  The man had a history of heart disease, and on drugs at the time of his death. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide.  However a grand jury did not bring charges against any of the officers.  They found it was impossible to ignore the heart disease and drug use as also being associated with causing the mans death.  

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2016/06/15/dallas-county-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-4-in-jail-lobby-death-of-arlington-man/

 

Not at all similar. I watched the video. Unprofessional, definitely.  Stupid, definitely.

Are they trained to think that any movement at all is resisting? Absolute morons. They need better education and training. 

He was already under control. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I guess he was "good enough' to be the chief medical examiner for the entire state of Maryland.

 

This a is a product of selective reading. Otherwise known as the confirmation bubble. Obviously Fowler didn't have the creds to top this guy.

 

Derek Chauvin trial hears 'a healthy person would have died' in same circumstances as George Floyd

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/derek-chauvin-trial-hears-a-healthy-person-would-have-died-in-same-circumstances-as-george-floyd

[Bruno123]

1 minute ago, Thomas J said:

I guess he was "good enough' to be the chief medical examiner for the entire state of Maryland. 

Speaking strictly as a layman, I don't know how any medical examiner can dismiss the fact that Mr. Floyd had serious heart problems, and had a potentially lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system.  It is agreed that Mr. Floyd died from lack of oxygen.  Note one of the symptoms of a Fetanyl overdose is hypoxia.  Mr. Floyd was already complaining of not being able to breath long before being restrained.  Again, how does one separate the lack of oxygen due to the knee restraint versus the drug overdose.  

If it was only the knee that was causing the breathing difficulties, then why was Mr. Floyd on video tape saying "he could not breathe" while being arrested, and sitting in the patrol car?  




https://www.foxla.com/news/court-filings-medical-examiner-thought-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-system?fbclid=IwAR1LLOOe22aG-BTrel-tl_nPiQjoZ14Hi01Nfz4A3rctophHo4T9yZlynq0

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/fentanyl#:~:text=An overdose occurs when a,brain%2C a condition called hypoxia.

 

 

Why kneel on his neck for nearly ten minutes? Was he resisting arrest by lying on the ground? 

Police there need re-training; no doubt. 

 

[Jingthing]

To be clear.none of the three counts that Chauvin was convicted of required that it it needed to be proven that he intended to murder. That was clearly spelled out many times in the trial. He did murder. He is convicted. His intention was not addressed. 

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

To be clear.none of the three counts that Chauvin was convicted of required that it it needed to be proven that he intended to murder. That was clearly spelled out many times in the trial. He did murder. He is convicted. His intention was not addressed. 

 

That's correct. The bar was gross negligence, not intent.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-21/derek-chauvin-murder-manslaugher-george-floyd-sentence/100083494

Edited April 21, 2021 by ozimoron