Cash or Card

[KannikaP]

37 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

If they do not accept cash or CC they do not have my business.

What're the other alternatives?

[GreasyFingers]

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

What're the other alternatives?

I do not get what I want and the retailer does not get my money.

[Joinaman]

8 hours ago, curtklay said:

I call bulls**t.

I have never heard of cash being refused anywhere.

was in York outlet centre last March, had to pay by card for my coffee, some shoes and an ice cream.

Most of the stores were refusing cash, insisting on cards

[superal]

14 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

was in York outlet centre last March, had to pay by card for my coffee, some shoes and an ice cream.

Most of the stores were refusing cash, insisting on cards

Exactly what is happening everywhere and cash is on the way out and will be extinct within a few years . Has some good points e.g. losing cash is gone forever but a card is replaceable without monetary loss . No need to carry a fat cash laden wallet but more attention to your online banking is prudent . 

[Disparate Dan]

3 hours ago, bangon04 said:

Imagine trying to make a contactless card payment on a moving Thai bus.........

Many Thais do, if they offer ID or social fund card for payment. For as little as an 8 baht fare. You should get out more.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Disparate Dan

[superal]

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

Here in Thailand, I don't even see a need for (more) card readers. I've made many cashless payments - even at what I had considered "unlikely places" - simply using my phone. PromptPay or TrueMoney.

 

So I'd say both cash and card payments are on their way out, in the sense that increasingly you don't need to use a physical card anymore (it might still be linked to a payment app / wallet app).

Phone apps and payments can turn ugly if you lose the connection and never use a popular wifi as hacking is possible .

[Jing Joe]

Feel for you up there in Thailand. In Oz we are virtually free of Covid but only by super strict vigilance.   On a lighter "note", instead of using my card recently I gave a $50 note over the counter and they promptly put it in a washing machine behind the counter and when asked why they replied it was "money laundering". 

Stay safe folks.

[Leaver]

10 hours ago, curtklay said:

I call bulls**t.

I have never heard of cash being refused anywhere.

 

A cashless business is common when you don't trust the staff, or cash handling effects service delivery, usually to do with the speed of serving customers. 

 

Accepting cash can be labour intensive, and poses a security risk, and also a health risk, as we see in covid times.    

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, Thomas J said:

The governments are pushing towards a cashless society.  They can't track cash.  So black market for labor and goods.  Merchants like it because of the convenience and tracking. With that said it is not "free"  A charge on a credit card will cost the merchant between 2.75% and 5% of the amount of the purchase.  The higher the volume and the higher the average ticket charged the lower the rate.  So that cost gets added to the cost of the products/services rendered.  And those "rebates" free miles, cash back etc. that you get as freebees for using your card well those free premiums also get passed on to the merchant accepting your card.  Debit cards cost the least generally about 1.5% to 2% of the amount of the purchase.  Cards like American Express cost the most and that is why many merchants specifically will not accept them.  Also the merchant gets charged each month based on the number of different types of cards.  A Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Discover all have a monthly fee the merchant pays for the privilege of taking their cards. 

What country are you referring to in regards to cc costs? In Thailand your bank gives you a card reader for visa and mc cards. The commission of the bank is according to your contract with the bank. That is influenced by the type of business and the expected transaction volume. There are no monthly fees or any other charges on top. Amex is the same, done directly with Amex.

[bendejo]

If you lose possession of your debit card the $$$ is gone, no security on them.  That's my gripe with debit cards.

In the US these days cash seems to be incentivized: prices at gas stations lower for cash, certain supermarket chains do not take credit cards (these stores tend to have prices app. 20% less than their competitors), but they do accept debit and other kinds of cards. Food Stamps, a US gov't benefit for purchasing groceries, is now a plastic card.  In states where cannabis is legal purchases are cash only.  I think that country becoming a cashless society is a loooong way off. 

Something that happened there while I was away is gift cards emerging as an alternative currency (for a parody of this see the movie "Easy A").

 

A few years back I spent some time in Hong Kong and bought a card for riding the subway so I wouldn't have to purchase the fare every time.  I then realized the same card worked in shops, damned convenient that. 

 

 

[Andycoops]

Thailand is still very much a cash society especially outside the big cities, you hardly ever see anyone paying by card and occasionally at BigC I have seen it but they are usually visitors from Bangkok here to see family.

[Thomas J]

15 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

What country are you referring to in regards to cc costs? In Thailand your bank gives you a card reader for visa and mc cards. The commission of the bank is according to your contract with the bank. That is influenced by the type of business and the expected transaction volume. There are no monthly fees or any other charges on top. Amex is the same, done directly with Amex.

I ran a store in the USA.  The contract is between you and whatever bank or third party processes your transactions.  In the USA anyway, that charge is a monthly charge for each card you take.  Mastercard, Visa, American Express, or Discover.  You are then assessed a "merchant discount" that is the difference between the amount that is charged and what the merchant receives net of the discount.  The higher the volume of the merchant, the lower the fee.  The higher the average charge the lower the fee.  So, if you had a grocery store and a jewelry store with the same monthly volume the jewelry store would likely have a lower merchant discount since its average sale would be higher. The cards with "rewards" always pass those costs on to the merchant who accepted the card.  

 

Do rewards cards charge merchants more?

The major reason that interchange fees for rewards credit cards are higher than those for traditional cards is because banks use the interchange fee to help subsidize the cost of the rewards program, says Scott Schuh, senior economist, policy advisor and director of The Consumer Payments Research Center at the Federal ...

 

https://www.thebalance.com/where-does-money-for-rewards-come-from-4588414
 

• American Express Processing Fees - American Express is a special case, as it is the only card network that is also a card issuer. Amex's unique position also makes them work a little differently when it comes to credit card processing fees. With this issuer, they tend to be more expensive than what other networks charge, especially when it comes to processing returns.
• Other Costs & Fees - Accepting credit card payments comes with some additional costs to consider. In many cases you will be required to pay a monthly fees to your MSP, as well as cover the cost of card readers. This section outlines some common practices by payment processors, which you should be aware of before beginning to shop comparatively.

[YT3k72Em]

22 hours ago, bangon04 said:

Imagine trying to make a contactless card payment on a moving Thai bus.........

I got a BMTA contactless card and it works very well. Much easier than digging for coins.  I just sit down, the ticket lady comes with a battery powered ticket machine around her neck, and I tap the card on it. Finished.

 

She doesn't have to go through the process of ripping off a ticket and tearing 3 lines in it, handing you change etc..

 

The card has a QRcode on the back.  If I want to top it up, I just use any Thai bank's app and scan the code with my phone.

Edited May 17, 2021 by YT3k72Em

[bangon04]

2 hours ago, YT3k72Em said:

I got a BMTA contactless card and it works very well. Much easier than digging for coins.  I just sit down, the ticket lady comes with a battery powered ticket machine around her neck, and I tap the card on it. Finished.

 

She doesn't have to go through the process of ripping off a ticket and tearing 3 lines in it, handing you change etc..

 

The card has a QRcode on the back.  If I want to top it up, I just use any Thai bank's app and scan the code with my phone.

That sounds great. Have the various transport authorities finally reached an agreement to use the same card on all modes of transport? 

[superal]

4 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I ran a store in the USA.  The contract is between you and whatever bank or third party processes your transactions.  In the USA anyway, that charge is a monthly charge for each card you take.  Mastercard, Visa, American Express, or Discover.  You are then assessed a "merchant discount" that is the difference between the amount that is charged and what the merchant receives net of the discount.  The higher the volume of the merchant, the lower the fee.  The higher the average charge the lower the fee.  So, if you had a grocery store and a jewelry store with the same monthly volume the jewelry store would likely have a lower merchant discount since its average sale would be higher. The cards with "rewards" always pass those costs on to the merchant who accepted the card.  

 

Do rewards cards charge merchants more?

The major reason that interchange fees for rewards credit cards are higher than those for traditional cards is because banks use the interchange fee to help subsidize the cost of the rewards program, says Scott Schuh, senior economist, policy advisor and director of The Consumer Payments Research Center at the Federal ...

 

https://www.thebalance.com/where-does-money-for-rewards-come-from-4588414
 

• American Express Processing Fees - American Express is a special case, as it is the only card network that is also a card issuer. Amex's unique position also makes them work a little differently when it comes to credit card processing fees. With this issuer, they tend to be more expensive than what other networks charge, especially when it comes to processing returns.
• Other Costs & Fees - Accepting credit card payments comes with some additional costs to consider. In many cases you will be required to pay a monthly fees to your MSP, as well as cover the cost of card readers. This section outlines some common practices by payment processors, which you should be aware of before beginning to shop comparatively.

Now I understand why a golf course that a dozen of us play at offer 10% discount on green fees if paying with a visa card  .   What I dislike is that some vendors will accept a signed till receipt if you have forgotten your pin number or if they have a connection online problem with the card reader which means anyone who steal or finds your card can use it without the pin . 

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I ran a store in the USA.  The contract is between you and whatever bank or third party processes your transactions.  In the USA anyway, that charge is a monthly charge for each card you take.  Mastercard, Visa, American Express, or Discover.  You are then assessed a "merchant discount" that is the difference between the amount that is charged and what the merchant receives net of the discount.  The higher the volume of the merchant, the lower the fee.  The higher the average charge the lower the fee.  So, if you had a grocery store and a jewelry store with the same monthly volume the jewelry store would likely have a lower merchant discount since its average sale would be higher. The cards with "rewards" always pass those costs on to the merchant who accepted the card.  

 

Do rewards cards charge merchants more?

The major reason that interchange fees for rewards credit cards are higher than those for traditional cards is because banks use the interchange fee to help subsidize the cost of the rewards program, says Scott Schuh, senior economist, policy advisor and director of The Consumer Payments Research Center at the Federal ...

 

https://www.thebalance.com/where-does-money-for-rewards-come-from-4588414
 

• American Express Processing Fees - American Express is a special case, as it is the only card network that is also a card issuer. Amex's unique position also makes them work a little differently when it comes to credit card processing fees. With this issuer, they tend to be more expensive than what other networks charge, especially when it comes to processing returns.
• Other Costs & Fees - Accepting credit card payments comes with some additional costs to consider. In many cases you will be required to pay a monthly fees to your MSP, as well as cover the cost of card readers. This section outlines some common practices by payment processors, which you should be aware of before beginning to shop comparatively.

I don't know how it works in other places around the world, but in Thailand it's a fixed % and no monthly charges by the banks nor by Amex. The banks might charge a business different rate for different different charging methods ie 1 rate for physical card reader in the shop and another for ecommerce. The initial rate is according to the type of business and also the merchant's ability to negotiate with the bank. Many years ago I had a contract for physical card machine (when it was still manual) but I used to accept cards by fax from customers. Once my turnover from fax transactions grew the bank notified me that I can't use this method as it's not in the contract. They offered me a much higher rate for this and I negotiated it down. So then I had 2 contacts with the same bank. 

[Joinaman]

14 hours ago, Andycoops said:

Thailand is still very much a cash society especially outside the big cities, you hardly ever see anyone paying by card and occasionally at BigC I have seen it but they are usually visitors from Bangkok here to see family.

i often pay by debit card in the big sheds, and places like Tesco, but use the QR scanner when Im in Makro

Pay all of my household bills online using the banking app

so has greatly reduced my need to go to the ATM machine now

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, superal said:

Now I understand why a golf course that a dozen of us play at offer 10% discount on green fees if paying with a visa card  .   What I dislike is that some vendors will accept a signed till receipt if you have forgotten your pin number or if they have a connection online problem with the card reader which means anyone who steal or finds your card can use it without the pin

If you are signing a receipt that is a credit transaction not a debit transaction.  For credit transactions if the person who steals the card signs the receipt and the merchant does not require any ID, you are not liable.  You file a dispute of the charge, show that the signature is not yours,  it is best if you have already notified the credit card company of the lost card but even that is not required.  Once the card is reported lost or stolen it can not be processed.  Now, if you lose your card and foolishly have your pin with it, that is a different story.  The merchant, and the card company have to believe you either did the transaction or by giving your pin, authorized it.  You could dispute the charge, but I think you would have to have pretty convincing proof that it was not you.  

 

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

I don't know how it works in other places around the world, but in Thailand it's a fixed % and no monthly charges by the banks nor by Amex. The banks might charge a business different rate for different different charging methods ie 1 rate for physical card reader in the shop and another for ecommerce.

That is entirely possible.  I can only tell you my experience in the USA.  Usually small merchants go through some sort of cooperative or association who negotiates with the card companies.  That way lets say it was the California retailers association, they have a massive volume when you combine all the retailers together.  Now the association takes a small percentage to combine all the charges and negotiate on behalf of its members.  However, from my experience every type of card you take charged you a monthly account fee.  Whether you had 1 charge or 1,000 charges per month it was so much just for the privilege  of accepting the card.  I accepted Master Card and Visa but not American Express or Discover.  There just wasn't enough volume for me to pay for the monthly charge.  I was charged the least for a pin based debit and the most for reward cards as a charge whether those were Master Card or Visa.  Each charge was a different percentage based on how big the charge was and what type of reward card it was.  My debit sales ran about 1.65% and my credit card sales closer 3.75% of the amount charged.  Now I ran with a terminal.  If I was accepting online or telephone based sales the charge to accept those was even higher because of the additional risk of fraud. 

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

That is entirely possible.  I can only tell you my experience in the USA.  Usually small merchants go through some sort of cooperative or association who negotiates with the card companies.  That way lets say it was the California retailers association, they have a massive volume when you combine all the retailers together.  Now the association takes a small percentage to combine all the charges and negotiate on behalf of its members.  However, from my experience every type of card you take charged you a monthly account fee.  Whether you had 1 charge or 1,000 charges per month it was so much just for the privilege  of accepting the card.  I accepted Master Card and Visa but not American Express or Discover.  There just wasn't enough volume for me to pay for the monthly charge.  I was charged the least for a pin based debit and the most for reward cards as a charge whether those were Master Card or Visa.  Each charge was a different percentage based on how big the charge was and what type of reward card it was.  My debit sales ran about 1.65% and my credit card sales closer 3.75% of the amount charged.  Now I ran with a terminal.  If I was accepting online or telephone based sales the charge to accept those was even higher because of the additional risk of fraud. 

I thought this thread was about possible cashless Thailand so what difference does the way cc  Work in the US?

[YT3k72Em]

18 hours ago, bangon04 said:

That sounds great. Have the various transport authorities finally reached an agreement to use the same card on all modes of transport? 

No they all use different cards. The BMTA one is a pre-paid debit card from Krung Thai Bank.

 

It is unlikely that they will all agree to use the same one in my opinion. It is more likely that they will all add the ability to tap your phone, or tap a standard debit/credit card or whatever becomes the most popular form of paying for things in the future.

[Thomas J]

13 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

I thought this thread was about possible cashless Thailand so what difference does the way cc  Work in the US?

This was a response to a person who was proudly announcing that he used a card for his purchases because he got "rewards"  I pointed out that those "rewards" are not free and that the merchant gets those added to his bill.  That led to a post on the various charges merchants are assessed in Thailand and I replied that is different than the charges a merchant gets in the USA.  You happened to come in at the end of the thread. 

 

[JimGant]

On 5/16/2021 at 1:42 PM, dlclark97 said:

But, I will not use it anywhere the card is out of my sight at any time.

Since the inception of chips, charge cards cannot be successfully cloned -- so if the merchant's card reader requires an operative chip (some still have a fall back to magnetic strip use, tho' this is very rare these days), then no one can take your card in the back room and glean info to make a clone card.

 

BUT, they can copy the info, to include the CVV number on the back, and thus have enough info to make on online "card not present" purchase. So, make sure you scratch out your CVV number (please make a note of it first). This number is not required for a "card present" purchase; thus, no reason to have it on your card for when your card goes with the waiter to the back room.

[me4175]

On 5/14/2021 at 5:00 PM, Neeranam said:

I do everything using a Crypto.com card, including paying telephone bills, petrol, internet, school fees, Makro, Bic C, etc. I get 4% cashback every time I use it. Also get free Spotify and Netflix from it and free 1st class airport lounges.

 

This card looks very interesting, thanks for the mention.

[superal]

19 hours ago, Thomas J said:

If you are signing a receipt that is a credit transaction not a debit transaction.  For credit transactions if the person who steals the card signs the receipt and the merchant does not require any ID, you are not liable.  You file a dispute of the charge, show that the signature is not yours,  it is best if you have already notified the credit card company of the lost card but even that is not required.  Once the card is reported lost or stolen it can not be processed.  Now, if you lose your card and foolishly have your pin with it, that is a different story.  The merchant, and the card company have to believe you either did the transaction or by giving your pin, authorized it.  You could dispute the charge, but I think you would have to have pretty convincing proof that it was not you.  

 

Thanks , very informative but whilst I think all that you say would work in western countries , I think in Thailand you would have a prolonged battle and when you add in the " lost in translation scenario " the chance of recovering fraudulent withdrawals may not be too easy . 

[Thomas J]

Just now, superal said:

Thanks , very informative but whilst I think all that you say would work in western countries , I think in Thailand you would have a prolonged battle and when you add in the " lost in translation scenario " the chance of recovering fraudulent withdrawals may not be too easy . 

I don't disagree that is more difficult but the rules are those of Mastercard and Visa and you can always appeal directly to them.  I can only tell you that I contested a charge for airline tickets who cancelled a flight and then wanted to give only credit towards a future flight rather than a refund.  The airline refused to budge.  Filed a dispute and had to call a couple of times to SCB but eventually the charge was reversed.  

[Thomas J]

On 5/16/2021 at 6:37 PM, KannikaP said:

What're the other alternatives?

Barter for sexual favors. 

 

[superal]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I don't disagree that is more difficult but the rules are those of Mastercard and Visa and you can always appeal directly to them.  I can only tell you that I contested a charge for airline tickets who cancelled a flight and then wanted to give only credit towards a future flight rather than a refund.  The airline refused to budge.  Filed a dispute and had to call a couple of times to SCB but eventually the charge was reversed.  

I had the same experience with Emirates who wanted to give me an alternative flight but I got refunded after the visa company intervened but still took 3 months to refund . 

[bangon04]

3 hours ago, YT3k72Em said:

No they all use different cards. The BMTA one is a pre-paid debit card from Krung Thai Bank.

 

It is unlikely that they will all agree to use the same one in my opinion. It is more likely that they will all add the ability to tap your phone, or tap a standard debit/credit card or whatever becomes the most popular form of paying for things in the future.

It would have been so simple to adopt the Rabbit Card for all Bangkok Transport. Still lots of people who don't qualify for bank accounts . Those without a smartphone are rapidly becoming second-class citizens in many countries.