Diesel Generator Problem - long shot

[carlyai]

The genset sounded like the starter motor was staying engaged but that wasn't the problem.

Sounds like something rubbing on the flywheel generating sparks near the injector. 

So it's a long shot, any ideas?

[Artisi]

1st up I would look at the starter, remove it and have a look. 

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

1st up I would look at the starter, remove it and have a look. 

Done that.

I bought a new starter (Lazada from China) about 6 months ago. I thought the problem was the starter not disingaging, so took it and the old one (with a faulty solonoid) to a starter/generator shop.

The guy said the new starter motor mounting holes were just a little bigger and the starter gear was that little bit bigger than the original starter. So probably not meshing with the fly wheel teeth and could move on the mount as the holes were bigger than the bolts. Not much. (Must be a bad machined unit from China, but same replacement part.)

So swapped the good solenoid into the old starter motor and reinstalled it.

When i start the diesel, it starts to sound like a starter motor problem, then the noise goes away, then comes back near the top side of the flywheel near an injector and I've seen sparks from that area but not sure exactly where from as turned the machine off.

 

[Artisi]

28 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Done that.

I bought a new starter (Lazada from China) about 6 months ago. I thought the problem was the starter not disingaging, so took it and the old one (with a faulty solonoid) to a starter/generator shop.

The guy said the new starter motor mounting holes were just a little bigger and the starter gear was that little bit bigger than the original starter. So probably not meshing with the fly wheel teeth and could move on the mount as the holes were bigger than the bolts. Not much. (Must be a bad machined unit from China, but same replacement part.)

So swapped the good solenoid into the old starter motor and reinstalled it.

When i start the diesel, it starts to sound like a starter motor problem, then the noise goes away, then comes back near the top side of the flywheel near an injector and I've seen sparks from that area but not sure exactly where from as turned the machine off.

 

Difficult over the net,  but could be the pinion is not fully retracting resulting in it touching the ring gear, a good clean up of the pinion / shaft and possibly apply a little powered graphite to the pinion / shaft interface might help. 

[carlyai]

6 hours ago, Artisi said:

Difficult over the net,  but could be the pinion is not fully retracting resulting in it touching the ring gear, a good clean up of the pinion / shaft and possibly apply a little powered graphite to the pinion / shaft interface might help. 

Thanks.

But I have changed the starter motor. So the starter motor (SM2) that was in there when the problem happened was replaced with the original starter motor (SM1) but with the solenoid changed from SM2 to SM1. Bench tested SM1 at the electrical shop and seemed to work fine.

If you think away from the starter motor, what else could have shaken loose and come in contact with ring gear?

Don't know if this has anything to do with it but we had a day of small power breaks. The diesel would start, run for about a minute then stop. Twas at the last longer power fail the diesel stopped and i had a look. 

 

[Adiudon]

What I would do is start the genset up and then remove the starter if the problem is still there it could be a bolt or other metal object inside the bell housing causing the grinding and sparks. 

If the problem is with the starter or ring gear then make some shims to space the starter away from the mounting to give clearance.

[carlyai]

10 hours ago, Adiudon said:

What I would do is start the genset up and then remove the starter if the problem is still there it could be a bolt or other metal object inside the bell housing causing the grinding and sparks. 

If the problem is with the starter or ring gear then make some shims to space the starter away from the mounting to give clearance.

Very difficult and takes awhile to remove the starter motor. Too many sparks flying for the time it would take.

Good idea but.

Can't find a diesel mechanic as yet so Saturday will start to pull the silent running casing off. The sparks I saw are coming from the opposite side of the motor. Seem somewhere above an injector near the fuel solonoid, where about the ring gear would be.  In that green area opposite the DOING sign. (With the door open). Was a long shot that someone would say, 'yes i know exactly what that is and how to fix it'.

[Adiudon]

34 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Very difficult and takes awhile to remove the starter motor. Too many sparks flying for the time it would take.

Good idea but.

Can't find a diesel mechanic as yet so Saturday will start to pull the silent running casing off. The sparks I saw are coming from the opposite side of the motor. Seem somewhere above an injector near the fuel solonoid, where about the ring gear would be.  In that green area opposite the DOING sign. (With the door open). Was a long shot that someone would say, 'yes i know exactly what that is and how to fix it'.

 

It does sound like a clearance issue with the starter/flywheel or a foreign object in there, if you can turn the engine over manually is there any sound of grinding or tight spots, I know not the easiest of jobs but it all narrows down the search.

I have removed a few of those soundproof covers off generators in the past and they are not the nicest of tasks, lots of screws and sharp metal edges. 

Hope you find the problem quickly.

[carlyai]

17 hours ago, Adiudon said:

 

It does sound like a clearance issue with the starter/flywheel or a foreign object in there, if you can turn the engine over manually is there any sound of grinding or tight spots, I know not the easiest of jobs but it all narrows down the search.

I have removed a few of those soundproof covers off generators in the past and they are not the nicest of tasks, lots of screws and sharp metal edges. 

Hope you find the problem quickly.

Hi thanks. I was thinking of taking the starter motor out and trying to get a flat bladed screw drive into the ring gear and try and turn it over. I thought it would be to hard, but you think it could work?

 

[Artisi]

3 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Hi thanks. I was thinking of taking the starter motor out and trying to get a flat bladed screw drive into the ring gear and try and turn it over. I thought it would be to hard, but you think it could work?

 

Long shot, assume you have original bolts attaching the starter, is it likely a foreign bolt had been used that protrudes into the housing and touches the ring gear or flywheel. 

[carlyai]

33 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Long shot, assume you have original bolts attaching the starter, is it likely a foreign bolt had been used that protrudes into the housing and touches the ring gear or flywheel. 

Thanks. The noise isn't there all the time. Sound like the starter is reengaging after initially starting the engine and disengaging.

 

Wait....a Urika moment...gotta check something.

 

Found the problem. I think the starter is getting a command from my newly installed auto start module to reengage once the diesel is running. So with the auto start module in manual the diesel starts, starter motor disengages, then 30 secs later it reingages.

Will contact the module supplier in the UK see what they have to say.

Great, was going to start to pull it to pieces tomorrow for a closer look. ????

 

[Adiudon]

14 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Thanks. The noise isn't there all the time. Sound like the starter is reengaging after initially starting the engine and disengaging.

 

Wait....a Urika moment...gotta check something.

 

Found the problem. I think the starter is getting a command from my newly installed auto start module to reengage once the diesel is running. So with the auto start module in manual the diesel starts, starter motor disengages, then 30 secs later it reingages.

Will contact the module supplier in the UK see what they have to say.

Great, was going to start to pull it to pieces tomorrow for a closer look. ????

 

Nice ! Im pleased you are closer the problem, I did assume you had ruled out the starter solenoid wrongly receiving a feed.

It now sounds like the module/relay you installed is the problem, or the feed telling it that the generator is running and producing power.

Everyday is a school day isn't it, you will solve it in the end !!

14 minutes ago, carlyai said:

 

 

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Adiudon said:

 

Nice ! Im pleased you are closer the problem, I did assume you had ruled out the starter solenoid wrongly receiving a feed.

It now sounds like the module/relay you installed is the problem, or the feed telling it that the generator is running and producing power.

Everyday is a school day isn't it, you will solve it in the end !!

 

Seems that if it doesn't sense power output from the genset the starter motor will keep reingaging.

Have to check tomorrow.

 

[carlyai]

13 hours ago, carlyai said:

Seems that if it doesn't sense power output from the genset the starter motor will keep reingaging.

Have to check tomorrow.

 

Dumb and dumber. When i read the manual again (if all else fails, read the manual), it says that if the voltage output from the diesel is not sensed, it will crank the going engine 3 times then lockout with low fuel led light. Seems exactly whats happening.

I never thought about the autostart module, was thinking mechanical.

There is a 2A fuse in the 220v sense cct. I suspect it could be blown.

75 years old and still learning things daily. It's a wonderful life. ????

[Crossy]

You might want to add a starter disable relay.

 

If your genset has a "charge" output that's only active when the engine is running use that to operate a 12V relay to break the connection to the starter solenoid.

 

Use the "NC" (normally closed) contacts so they open once the charge voltage becomes active.

 

Of course you need to sort why it's trying to re-start first.

[carlyai]

Fixed. 

It's a normal operational part of the autostart module. If power is not sensed by terminals 11 12 it cranks 3 times then locks the starter out with a low fuel led indication.

I was looking for a mechanical problem not an electrical problem..

So the problem was what i thought, the starter motor reengaging, but it was after about 20 secs from the initial start.

So checking found a dry joint on the fuse to terminal 11 of the module, therefore not sensing 220v and cranking again.

Crappy fuse eyelets could not be tinned, so left that fuse out. Seems it's only protecting 1' of cable.

Put it all back together and AOK.