International Fraud - how to proceed

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You guess wrong and I don't need your patronising explanation of it.

 

The Briton did not state anywhere, to his Swiss pal or anyone else, that "he had paid a scammer".  If you insist on claiming that he did say that, doubtless, you'll be able to show that quote here.  

Then you tell me how he could be scammed otherwise... use your brain i know your smart.

The money was intended to buy computers for mining. So how else but buying it could he lose it. 

Anyway its up to the Brit to prove that he was scammed. 

 

Otherwise he lost it privately to a scammer not related to the business and then he is 100% liable. During the business you could say 50% loss for both parties.

 

- Availability of the mining machines was difficult back then, and we had to wait.

- On May 7th Adrian said that he has transferred the funds for the Antminers, and that the local seller has confirmed arrival of new stock.

- May 20 Adrian stated that he has not received any response from the seller in "over a week". Up until this point he has still not shared the seller's details with me, despite me asking repeatedly. A few days after he stated that the money was transferred directly to an individual and not via a trading platform.

 

seems clear he said he paid and did not get the computers.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by robblok

[jomtienisgood]

16 hours ago, Pete70 said:

 

I have proof in writing of theft of a large sum of money. How is that not the case for the police to get involved?

 

What you are saying is still not making sense.

 

It would mean  that nobody, ever, would be going in to court over an unpaid bill or whatever, if, as you say, it's perfectly fine to just ignore it and it goes away. That's got to be BS.

 

 

When is Hollywood turning your story into a movie?? 55555

[Liverpool Lou]

53 minutes ago, robblok said:

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You guess wrong and I don't need your patronising explanation of it.

 

The Briton did not state anywhere, to his Swiss pal or anyone else, that "he had paid a scammer".  If you insist on claiming that he did say that, doubtless, you'll be able to show that quote here.  

Then you tell me how he could be scammed otherwise... use your brain i know your smart.

I'm not talking about how he could have been scammed.   I am "smart enough" to know what I said and I referred only to the assertion that the Briton said he "had been scammed", nothing more than that.  He did not tell the OP that he "had been scammed".

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I'm not talking about how he could have been scammed.   I am "smart enough" to know what I said and I referred only to the assertion that the Briton said he "had been scammed", nothing more than that.  He did not tell the OP that he "had been scammed".

The Briton said he paid money to a supplier. He does not have the computers that is the scam. Read what i posted from the OP. Its clear as day. 

Brit guy pays Antminers for computer

20 may still no computers

Guess what is the scam.

So all the Brit has to do to prove the scam is provide payment details to Antminers. 

https://gacht-bitmain.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008853858226/Homepage.htm?WT.mc_id=&WT.srch=&&keywords=antminer&matchtype=e&device=c&WT.mc_id=&WT.srch=&gclid=CjwKCAjw_o-HBhAsEiwANqYhpzCH5cDplk93j8N3miEfV9mC6AiyfBxVxgoPB-_iA-Z-nBF6CesRwRoCfG4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

- Availability of the mining machines was difficult back then, and we had to wait.

- On May 7th Adrian said that he has transferred the funds for the Antminers, and that the local seller has confirmed arrival of new stock.

- May 20 Adrian stated that he has not received any response from the seller in "over a week". Up until this point he has still not shared the seller's details with me, despite me asking repeatedly. A few days after he stated that the money was transferred directly to an individual and not via a trading platform.

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

6 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I'm not talking about how he could have been scammed.   I am "smart enough" to know what I said and I referred only to the assertion that the Briton said he "had been scammed", nothing more than that.  He did not tell the OP that he "had been scammed".

The Briton said he paid money to a supplier. He does not have the computers that is the scam. Read what i posted from the OP. Its clear as day. 

Read what I posted.   

 

I said that the Briton was not quoted as saying that he "had been scammed".   He was not quoted as saying that and that is the only point I am making.   I am not interested in speculating whether he may have been scammed.

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Read what I posted.   

 

I said that the Briton was not quoted as saying that he "had been scammed".   He was not quoted as saying that and that is the only point I am making.   I am not interested in speculating whether he may have been scammed.

 June 1st when I kept pressuring for a straight answer he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back

If he was not scammed then why would he have to find the guy. And there is the non deliverance of the hardware. 

 

No he did not say he was scammed but you need to read between the lines.

[thaibeachlovers]

I lost a year's income to a "friend" of 30 years.

Lesson learned- don't work for or lend money to a friend/ wife/ lover.

 

Move on and learn the lesson.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:50 PM, Pete70 said:

You know what I just realized.

 

There never was a purchase.

 

This whole thing was planned from the start - there never was any intention  to purchase anything. He just kept the money.

 

Why?

 

Isn't it obvious?

 

If there was a purchase (and he himself had been scammed) he would immediately produce a proof of purchase to show what happened. There is really only one reason why you would NOT produce any information on that: if it never happened!!

 

Man how was I so stupid.

 

You have joined the club.

[fdsa]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Lesson learned- don't work for or lend money to a friend/ wife/ lover.

why not? it is much cheaper to lose money than many years of life.

gift money now to not pay alimony later :D

[Yellowtail]

How do the terms of your contract read?

 

I operated a load racket for about ten years. When "friends" squawked at the rates, I always told them I never charge my friends interest, but my friends don't borrow money from me.

 

You lost a little money, and worse you lost a friend. You will get neither back, so save yourself a lot of grief move on.  

[Fab5BKK]

Hi Pete & All,

 

Please note that the following doesn't constitute a legal advice and can't be used in court. Legal advice would require communication of all documents, pieces of information and a payment.

 

A few thoughts here (lawyer by training - Master degree in International Commercial Law with more than 20 years of international contract background).

 

1. Do you have a contract, signed and witnessed?

 

2. In this contract, did you (both parties) agree on arbitration process and legal jurisdiction?

 

3. Other than what you called evidence do you have witnesses that can testify before court?

 

4. If you go "legal" , do it 100% legal (no blackmail, no defamation, no abuse, no threats towards the defendant and third parties), otherwise you could be sent to court and have to pay lots of damages

 

5. Theorically speaking, you could go to court. However, did you consider the time, resources, hassle involved? Bearing in mind your case is weak if you didn't answer yes to the 3 questions above.

 

Just my 2 cents, free of charge!

Edited July 10, 2021 by Fab5BKK

[Pete70]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:43 PM, Fab5BKK said:

Hi Pete & All,

 

Please note that the following doesn't constitute a legal advice and can't be used in court. Legal advice would require communication of all documents, pieces of information and a payment.

 

A few thoughts here (lawyer by training - Master degree in International Commercial Law with more than 20 years of international contract background).

 

1. Do you have a contract, signed and witnessed?

 

2. In this contract, did you (both parties) agree on arbitration process and legal jurisdiction?

 

3. Other than what you called evidence do you have witnesses that can testify before court?

 

4. If you go "legal" , do it 100% legal (no blackmail, no defamation, no abuse, no threats towards the defendant and third parties), otherwise you could be sent to court and have to pay lots of damages

 

5. Theorically speaking, you could go to court. However, did you consider the time, resources, hassle involved? Bearing in mind your case is weak if you didn't answer yes to the 3 questions above.

 

Just my 2 cents, free of charge!

 

Thank you for the feedback.

 

1: Depends on the definition of a contract in whatever jurisdiction this would be in, I suppose? There was an agreement, yes, and that was in writing. Is it a plain form of paper that we both signed? No, it's not.

2 and 3 definitely not, no.

4: There has been no such things.

 

5: Frankly, I've got time and that wouldn't really concern me.

 

But why do you say it's a weak case? I have written evidence of both him stating what will happen to the funds, and him then later breaking that agreement, as well as him stating that he will "get me my money". How is that a weak case to sue to ensure to get the funds back with support of the courts?

 

 

[Fab5BKK]

Pete, you are such in a denial state... Hopeless

 

You did ask for advice. I offered you advice based on my practice of Law.

 

What could I say... If you know better, go for it.

End of Story

[RJRS1301]

12 minutes ago, Fab5BKK said:

Pete, you are such in a denial state... Hopeless

 

You did ask for advice. I offered you advice based on my practice of Law.

 

What could I say... If you know better, go for it.

End of Story

Finding a jurisdiction to accept the suit in the first place would be difficult.

Cost of lodging in any jurisdiction and finding a lawyer to handle it again difficult

However, in spite of many pointing out flaws in the case it stands, he believes he will win.

Some people ask advice, and when it does not match what they think, then strenuously deny they may be incorrect.

  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

These words are usually credited to the acclaimed genius Albert Einstein.

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Finding a jurisdiction to accept the suit in the first place would be difficult.

Cost of lodging in any jurisdiction and finding a lawyer to handle it again difficult

However, in spite of many pointing out flaws in the case it stands, he believes he will win.

Some people ask advice, and when it does not match what they think, then strenuously deny they may be incorrect.

  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

These words are usually credited to the acclaimed genius Albert Einstein.

"Throwing good money after bad."

[Pete70]

3 hours ago, Fab5BKK said:

Pete, you are such in a denial state... Hopeless

 

You did ask for advice. I offered you advice based on my practice of Law.

 

What could I say... If you know better, go for it.

End of Story

I just don't understand how it's a weak case with all the evidence I have?

 

If it indeed is, then it seems the law is backing up people acting like this, instead of the opposite which it should be!

[Pete70]

3 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

I just don't understand how it's a weak case with all the evidence I have?

 

If it indeed is, then it seems the law is backing up people acting like this, instead of the opposite which it should be!

Basically:

 

- I have evidence of him making specific statements

- I can prove that this is indeed his account (voice messages as well as pictures)

 

How can I not make him legally accountable for what he said? This doesn't make sense to me

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

Basically:

 

- I have evidence of him making specific statements

- I can prove that this is indeed his account (voice messages as well as pictures)

 

How can I not make him legally accountable for what he said? This doesn't make sense to me

It doesn't make sense. You need to move ahead with this as quickly and forcefully as possible. 

 

Have you retained an attorney yet? This should be your first step. 

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

It doesn't make sense. You need to move ahead with this as quickly and forcefully as possible. 

 

Have you retained an attorney yet? This should be your first step. 

I want to try and find out as much as I possibly can by myself before I spend a lot of money on attorneys.

 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Pete70 said:

I want to try and find out as much as I possibly can by myself before I spend a lot of money on attorneys.

But you have all the evidence, correct? What more do you need? It's time to retain an attorney and move ahead.

[GrandPapillon]

43 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

I just don't understand how it's a weak case with all the evidence I have?

 

If it indeed is, then it seems the law is backing up people acting like this, instead of the opposite which it should be!

are you implying that life is not fair and the justice system is not perfect? LOL

[GrandPapillon]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:56 PM, robblok said:

Eh crypto mining is not a high risk business crypto trading is.

 

With crypto mining the guy has to buy computers (as said in the OP)

 

So if he did not buy those and the money is lost then its easy to prove fraud.

 

Please read up on crypto mining vs crypto trading.

 

Your whole premisses are wrong. The guy is a crook if he cant show either payment to a scammer or having possession of the comptuers.

actually it's the other way around and where you are confused.

 

In textbook definition, investment is "buying hard assets or fixed assets for a future stream of income"

 

technically, buying a crypto mining rig (buying the computer) is "investment"

 

on the other hand, crypto trading is speculation, not investment, that is "buying assets at a certain price with the hope of reselling that asset a higher price", basically "future price" is the main objective, not the "future income" of that asset

 

speculation is risky, and investment is equally risky, in both cases you are putting money at high risk, while the underlying risk factors will be different.

Edited July 12, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[robblok]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

actually it's the other way around and where you are confused.

 

In textbook definition, investment is "buying hard assets or fixed assets for a future stream of income"

 

technically, buying a crypto mining rig (buying the computer) is "investment"

 

on the other hand, crypto trading is speculation, not investment, that is "buying assets at a certain price with the hope of reselling that asset a higher price", basically "future price" is the main objective, not the "future income" of that asset

So tell me why buying stock is seen as an investment ? Might be a Dutch English thing in terms.

 

However i stand with my reply that crypto mining is less speculative as you generate income and the computers themselves hold some value too. I have had a crypto miner as a client. He did actually quite well  a steady flow of income was generated. Far less at danger of the big speculation changes that buying crypto has.

 

So you might be right about your technical description but if you compare the two crypto trading is the riskier of the two. 

[GrandPapillon]

crypto mining can be very risky for large ops, buying thousands of computers and GPUs, with all that falling apart overnight if the cost of "producing" becomes too high, or regulators shutdown your operations before you could payback your initial investment. That's a very high risk. You can't discount that high level of risks just because you don't see it.

 

Speculation main risk is the price fluctuations. Completely different type of risks, but very visible, which is why it's easier to identify and perceive as high risk,

 

as for "stock investment", depends on your holding period, if it's short term, it's regarded as "speculative",

 

if it's long term, the "Stock" will generate some kind of variable income from the company you put money into. Those variable incomes are generated by the company through their fixed and intangible assets. It's more like an "investment rights", like dividends payout, as a shareholder of the company.

 

for "private placement" or "direct investment", it's a real investment since the money will be used to buy real assets in the company for future income

Edited July 12, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[jomtienisgood]

18 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

But you have all the evidence, correct? What more do you need? It's time to retain an attorney and move ahead.

Are you proposing ( suggesting ) yourself?? 55555

[jomtienisgood]

18 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

are you implying that life is not fair and the justice system is not perfect? LOL

Are you referring to Papillon and Cayenne?? 

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, jomtienisgood said:

Are you proposing ( suggesting ) yourself?? 55555

No, but I could recommend a firm I used here for twenty years. 

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Basically:

 

- I have evidence of him making specific statements

- I can prove that this is indeed his account (voice messages as well as pictures)

 

How can I not make him legally accountable for what he said? This doesn't make sense to me

Doesn't have to make sense in LOS. If you want sense, IMO go home.

[jomtienisgood]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, but I could recommend a firm I used here for twenty years. 

Just joking. 55555