Struggling with Thai staff

[Farmer007]

My business is expanding rapidly and we made the decision to employ Thais in all positions, including mid to senior level management. We are not shying away from providing training.

 

What gets me is the mentality of most university graduates that have zero ambition nor the initiative to think for themselves, refering to taking charge in the position they are employed in. I find myself having to micro-manage every single little aspect of the business.

 

Where do other foreign employers find the Thais with a more universal western work ethic...or is this like finding a needle in a haystack?

 

We have been operating for 5 years and will soon have a staff contingent of 250.

[WEBBYB808]

Remember  in Asian culture it is the age that dictates knowledge and seniority  just like tribalism around the globe.  This is not something that is switched  off snd on just because  of work environment.   You should make a procedural book for each position  and task with the foresight to handle situations.   I have seen this at some businesses here and in many Western  businesses  and military a book for each position.  Many lack ambition  around the globe.  Many need to be shown they way.  School and university only prove that one can be shown the way and follow directions.   Many just want a great salary that comes from following  directions.   Lets for example take one of the simplest positions in a restaurant.  Let's say wait staff.  In the west wait staff have many responsibilities other than just bringing food and drinks from the kitchen.   Like keeping condiments fresh, keeping floors clean, keeping restaurant  clean, continually  checking on customers. preping certain foods, etc.  Western wait staff are always busy at work and not sitting around on their phones if business  is slow.  Here,   I see very little work from wait staff other than setting food.  One must often shout out that they need another beverage, as the staffs on their phone and improperly trained.  Dirty windows, dity this and that.  And hygiene.   I watch them pick their nose, toes, or snezze in their hsnds without  washing and serve the next customers.   They just have no training or skills here.  Even college grads.  You must plan every position  and have contingency.   Use black binder books with step by step for each position  describing  in detail

[richard_smith237]

I feel you.... 

 

I have worked in the Asia Pacific - Middle East  region for over 20 years. 

When generalising the ‘general lack of ambition’ amongst many Thai’s with whom I have worked can be extremely frustrating. 

 

I have found some of the best Thai’s to ‘exported’ to international departments overseas, however, they fall into the realms of ‘average’ when placed alongside their international counterparts. 

 

Indian’s on the other hand nearly always show overwhelming ambition to the point of being highly competitive with their piers and quite often overbearing.

 

I have found that each and every nation has is ‘excellent’ people with whom working is a pleasure and they exceed their natural traits. This is equally so of westerner’s who can often range from presenting agressively superior attitude but ineffective, to highly knowledgable and quite excellent. 

 

 

When specifically dealing with Thai’s from within Thailand I have found a couple of key points: 

Do not hire from the best universities;

 

I have found that those who have graduated from Chula or Thamarsat to be utterly hopeless, they don’t want to work and have sense of self importance beyond their experience and position. 

 

I have found that those from ‘campus’ universities such as ‘Chiang Mai’ where students live away from home and have managed their own lives to be more mature and better ’self starters’. 

 

I have also found that those from ‘moderate universities such as Khon Kaen to be variable - some are better than others. 

 

The reality is, as with any nation ’some are better than others’...  an interview will weed out those with no ambition. 

 

Watch a person walk 50m - you can usually tell their ambition by how they shuffle or walk !!! (silly, I know, but its true !)... 

 

Ultimately - put staff on a ’trail system’, those who are not good can be let go. 

 

 

 

 

[seajae]

biggest problems in Thailand is the fact there is no work ethics, many simply want to do as little as possible. My wife after university got a job with a Japanese company, they sent her to Japan for 6 months to learn all aspects of the business. She eventually left the company(Bangkok) to move back closer to home(Surat Thani) where she became the manager of a large export company. Her work ethics are that of the Japanese but she has a lot of trouble with many of the workers/laborers they employ as they dont have the same work ethics although she has trained the office staff to have her work ethics and they do a great job. Many thais also do not like taking responsibility for anything which is why its hard to find good higher level workers/managers as well, they like the more important positions but do not want to have to think about everything that is being done let alone being responsible for the workers under them. Adjusting to the way thais see work etc is all you can do, maybe do a western thing and have them sit for a writen exam  then the ones that pass have to sit with you in a discussion of what they will be doing and explaining how they would go about it, get them to show if they have the talent/ability to do the job before hiring them

[metisdead]

A troll post and a reply has been removed. 

[Farmer007]

Thx for all the comments and advice so far. I am glad that I am not the only one who has this problem.

 

So...I will try and hire from non-elite universities and also write a step by step guide for each position.  Hopefully this improves things.

 

The other thing I forgot to mention is the high turnover of staff. They seem to resign or just not rock up to work for no apparent reason. 

[Pedrogaz]

Hire women

[mvdf]

Probably an industry-specific thing. As an airline pilot, I never had work issues with my Thai counterparts. I find their reliability, CRM procedures, decision making skills, assertiveness, situational awareness and the (often maligned) ability to think for themselves fortunately neither lacking nor wanting. 

 

Maybe it also has to do with the education system where independent thinking is not as strongly encouraged as in the west.  Rote learning, regurgitating dictated material and discouraging critical thinking skills often impede the ability to take the initiative to act outside that narrow circle drawn by a person of authority.  

Edited September 5, 2021 by mvdf

[Thai-Aust]

18 hours ago, Farmer007 said:

The other thing I forgot to mention is the high turnover of staff. They seem to resign or just not rock up to work for no apparent reason. 

I agree with the written job descriptions, explain all details at every step and what to do when encounter problems so they know what are required of them to perform their tasks. This probably filters out unqualified people in the first place. As you mentioned it, wait staff have a lot more duties than just serving food. So when they apply for the job they would know what they have to do. This is also Australian's public service practice as well, at least in NSW. Every position has job description outlines what employees are expected to do, and for some duties have manual specify what and how to do things.

 

Maybe you should consider having (a) consultant/s to manage workforce especially your business that has been in existence in Thailand for nearly 5 years and have high staff turnover rate.

[Cricky]

22 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

Hire women

yes, bar girls

get some extra benefits on the side

[eddiesdad]

Over 20 years working in Asia.  Everything from factory workers to office staff.

Most of the mid/upper managers were Thai Chinese. Maybe born in Thailand but still Chinese by tradition. Differnt work ethic.  These managers often said that they would not hire Thai's to work on their factory lines if it were not for Thai law stating must have at least 30% Thai. They prefered Cambodian Laos et - harder workers. You will alwys lose workers to the promise of 20 Baht more further up the road. There is no concept of loyalty.  Also in factories they are paid 13 months salary. One month is a "bonus" month. Not earned due to performance - it's a carrot.  You will see many workers leave after getting the bonus.  Same at holiday periods.  Bus transport always sent all over the provinces to bring back workers after the holidays finish. You would be lucky to get back 40%.  Always the same story. Hiring, training, losing.  In all the time I have been doing this I have never met a Thai with a "fire in their belly".  They just don't seem to exist.  People will give all maner of reasons why.  If you possesed drive in this information day and age there is no reason why you could not educate yourself and move up.  I had only one girl who I can class as great. She was my office manager.  I gave her resposibility and she took it.  She hated Thai managers and their system of work. She could have gone a long way but she left to get married.  I was very honoured to be a guest speaker when she married.  She presented me with a very beautiful China bowl as a gift and thanked me for everything I had done for her. She was a rarity.

[OneMoreFarang]

Who selected your Thai employees in the management positions? You, a farang?

I think it it difficult to impossible for a farang to select Thai people who should not only work with you but should work together.

As far as I see the best approach is that you have one senior Thai "partner". It should be an "older" Thai with a good education and possibly good family background who you can trust. And that person should then select the other Thai employees.

That will make sure that the team works together and they fit together. One example is the university. It seems in many companies all employees come from the same university. Like: we are a club and we don't want outsiders.

The problem is obviously that you really have to trust the key Thai person. And sometimes you will have to force yourself to shut up and let it go and let the Thais handle things how they handle them.

Good luck! It's not easy.

[RafPinto]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:56 AM, richard_smith237 said:

I feel you.... 

 

I have worked in the Asia Pacific - Middle East  region for over 20 years. 

When generalising the ‘general lack of ambition’ amongst many Thai’s with whom I have worked can be extremely frustrating. 

 

I have found some of the best Thai’s to ‘exported’ to international departments overseas, however, they fall into the realms of ‘average’ when placed alongside their international counterparts. 

 

Indian’s on the other hand nearly always show overwhelming ambition to the point of being highly competitive with their piers and quite often overbearing.

 

I have found that each and every nation has is ‘excellent’ people with whom working is a pleasure and they exceed their natural traits. This is equally so of westerner’s who can often range from presenting agressively superior attitude but ineffective, to highly knowledgable and quite excellent. 

 

 

When specifically dealing with Thai’s from within Thailand I have found a couple of key points: 

Do not hire from the best universities;

 

I have found that those who have graduated from Chula or Thamarsat to be utterly hopeless, they don’t want to work and have sense of self importance beyond their experience and position. 

 

I have found that those from ‘campus’ universities such as ‘Chiang Mai’ where students live away from home and have managed their own lives to be more mature and better ’self starters’. 

 

I have also found that those from ‘moderate universities such as Khon Kaen to be variable - some are better than others. 

 

The reality is, as with any nation ’some are better than others’...  an interview will weed out those with no ambition. 

 

Watch a person walk 50m - you can usually tell their ambition by how they shuffle or walk !!! (silly, I know, but its true !)... 

 

Ultimately - put staff on a ’trail system’, those who are not good can be let go. 

 

 

 

 

Watch a person walk 50m - you can usually tell their ambition by how they shuffle or walk !!! (silly, I know, but its true !)... 

 

Someone walking 50 m should be employed on the spot. They usually take a motorbike even if it just takes a 5 minutes walk.

[kingstonkid]

One thing you are forgetting is that students are taught at a young age that they do not have to work to graduate.

 

University is a litle better but still.

 

The funny thing is that we talk about the Thai but looking at the western countries it seems to be an issue with them as well.

 

Unfortunately there is a generation of ME ME ME.  That thinks that everything should be handed do them.

Yes it is worse in Thailand.  I lived in Pakistan and although it got bad at a point the Pakistanis always got it sorted out.

 

The keys are to hire the best at the top people that you know can and will do the work and have no problem being the bad guy.  

 

I like the walk idea also the way they dress and act is important when hiring.  Do they ask questions about the job or the company.  Are there answers 1 word or can they talk in a sentence that makes sense be it in Thai or English.

 

hire staff for a 90 day trial at a lower wage.  Let them prove themselves.

 

Turn over here is huge and something that you have to bear with.

 

Just one comment sometimes you do not need a university degree to be a great employee.

 

I would rather train someone that wants the job and will work their ass off than someone that has a cheap piece of paper.

 

The saying used to be 

University students learn the theory of doing something.

 

College (trade school) students learn to actually do it.

[Liverpool Lou]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:56 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Ultimately - put staff on a ’trail system’, those who are not good can be let go. 

"...put staff on a ’trail system’ "[sic]

You mean trekking or hiking expeditions?

[fallup88]

Sad to say Thai education is bad to begin with, they lack the drive, knowledge, and work ethic. Your average college grad here is comparable to a high school student  in other develop countries.
 

I have a staff of over 200 as well. It takes a lot of training to get them in the right mindset, a lot of re education to rid of bad habits. Having yearly audits helps a lot. They need regular praises to give them a confident boost for improving, at the same time can’t be lax on them as bad habits will sneak back in and they start to become lazy. Team building and company events gives them a sense of belonging in the company.

 

It’s a continuous process, been here over 30 years. 

[Liverpool Lou]

20 hours ago, Farmer007 said:

The other thing I forgot to mention is the high turnover of staff. They seem to resign or just not rock up to work for no apparent reason. 

Perhaps that's an indication of something not being right with your company?

[Mavideol]

most of them are not looking for work but mainly look for a $$$ job

[vandeventer]

20 hours ago, Farmer007 said:

Thx for all the comments and advice so far. I am glad that I am not the only one who has this problem.

 

So...I will try and hire from non-elite universities and also write a step by step guide for each position.  Hopefully this improves things.

 

The other thing I forgot to mention is the high turnover of staff. They seem to resign or just not rock up to work for no apparent reason. 

A university grad is just like a high school student with a little more knowledge. Believe me work experience is the best. If you have a high turnover look at your On The Job training system, and don't be in a hurry to blame the young staff.

[charliebadenhop]

With the number of employees you have, you must be doing something right!

 

What is it that your company does?

Where is your company located?

 

You wrote-

What gets me is the mentality of most university graduates that have zero ambition nor the initiative to think for themselves, refering to taking charge in the position they are employed in. I find myself having to micro-manage every single little aspect of the business.

//

Seems like you need someone to help you develop a hiring process that helps to do away with this kind of disappointment. 

 

I, and or one of my colleagues could likely help...

 

In regard to "high turnover" hard to have any idea without a fairly deep conversation.

 

Send me a message if you like....

 

Regards,

Charlie

[Tropicalevo]

3 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

Hire women

So true.

The girls work harder, are usually more loyal and 'sometimes' think outside of the box.

Older women - not straight out of uni.

I hired an ex-bar girl from Isan (mid thirties) as a cleaner and she became my manager as the business grew. Zero qualifications but a hard worker. Could speak good English (self taught) but could not write it.

Sadly she died.

Generalisations are not always a good thing but - city girls expect respect. Country girls earn it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:20 PM, Farmer007 said:

 

 

We have been operating for 5 years and will soon have a staff contingent of 250.

5 years and don't know what Thai staff are like!

 

IMO the stories grow ever more inventive.

[Iron Tongue]

I come from the Intl. corporate world, with 25+-years experience in Asia.  My sincere advice is for you to:

 

1.  Poach from other companies.  You will need to spend a bit more, but a bargain compared to the time saved and demonstrated abilities of someone already working;

2.  Never hire new college grads.  Never!  They have a sense of entitlement from having a college degree.

3.  Never make yourself easily approachable to all the employees.  As the boss, you have to maintain certain barriers between yourself and the staff.  If you are too easily accessed, like in modern Western start-ups, many of your Thai employees won't respect you.

 

[Epidemiologist Dave]

3 hours ago, RafPinto said:

Watch a person walk 50m - you can usually tell their ambition by how they shuffle or walk !!! (silly, I know, but its true !)... 

 

Someone walking 50 m should be employed on the spot. They usually take a motorbike even if it just takes a 5 minutes walk.

My wife would take her motorcycle from the bedroom to the bathroom and back if she could.

[Farmer007]

I think I need to clarify some things:

 

1. Graduates are employed in key positions because they have specific scientific skills the farming business requires. I have poached skilled staff from other companies but most tend to last 2 years or less. I can spot a serial job-hopper easily now. 

2. I employ mostly women

3. This is an international company with international values and the shareholders have specific expectations from senior management staff.

4. The business is farming. It is modern, science-based and intensive. 

5. We do have a Thai partner (group), all internationally educated and years of experience working abroad. HR issues in Thailand are probably Thailand's biggest hurdle to become competitive...words out of their mouths.

 

I like the 50m walking analysis. I will lock up the ATV's and see how it plays out.

[ifmu]

one problem i think is 

"i micro manage"    teach them  and then its sink or swim but always give them a chance to ask questions and learn more than what you say  ..

you teach/instruct one way  english? they think and work another ... thai  much different 

in usa my biz had  a   one in 34 chance of a good employee .... note  good is relative  leaders/followers/grunts .. lots of different positions to fill .. 

[DEEP STATE]

I used to ponder about the Thai Workforce and it took me years to figure it out. I worked d in a Regional. Tech Company as the Country Manager for 6 years; then worked as the only Farang in a Thai Beer Company for 10 years as a Consultant. Productivity is not in the Thai Vocabulary. They are paid small salaries because it takes 10 of them to do the job of one normal western worker. They are educated in an environment where Critical Thinking does not exist. They can't think outside the box. The most important aspect of any Thai office is the social network.; Lunch and Birthdays are important social occasions. 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by DEEP STATE

[scubascuba3]

I've not hired anyone here but I've noticed half chinese thai are on another level

[Dickp]

I started at the bottom, of course when I join the Military as a enlisted personal. Work hard and asked a lot of question. Forced to retire due to time in service and age, but that was when the service were drawing down. Retire top enlisted grade as a E-9; 30 Plus years service and can say enjoyed my work the full time. Move from overseas posting directly to Thailand, promised the wife once retire I would bring her home. Did not think it would be as hard as it was to fine work here, Thai laws on foreign employment. Took 2 1/2 yrs to finely to get hired, and started at the low end of the pole, doing the same kind of work that I did when I joined the service. But was happy just to be working again. Used the same system that I used in the service work hard and ask a lot of questions. In less then a year two manager jobs both open at the same time, one was Division manger pay grade 9 and the other section office Supervisor pay grade 7. Everyone in the office thought that would put in for the position in the office I was working in, the grade 7. I went for the top as I knew I could do it and do really great job, as it was a lot less then I had been doing for my last ten years in the service. Got the job, was up against one lady that had be doing the same job as section supervisor at different company put same job and bout the same pay, just what to move up to the hirer pay. Once picked for my new portion my new boss asked me if I thought she would be a good candidate for the other supervisor opening and I said yes, she new the job and presented herself as a I can do person, so she was asked if she wanted the job and she said yes and was hired, Why would she take the job, work location and office were much better then were she was already working at. 

How we come to my 14 Plus years work at the Thai job. First I was the first Western that the company ever hired  in country. I knew how to interview and hire been doing it for many a year, but never in Thailand. Short learning curve, just applied what I already new. I agree Thai Lady's are much better workers and supervisor's then Thai men. When I start all but one of the different section supervisors were men. When I retired all were Lady's. I normally sat in on all hiring interviews with the direct person who the candidate would be working for and one other supervisor. I review all applications before hand and picked what I though were the top ten and then set up interviews for the top five. All three of us would have a copy of their applications and would ask different types of questions. I only hire one person that I had not seen doing there job before. We tried to hirer from within, or people we saw doing their work at another company.  One thing that was a killer on job application for me was having worked for to many different companies in a three year time. Another was what college had they attended. I had three types of employee's Labor, Team leaders some college and Supervisors in some kind of office field Degree. I hired people who worked as guards, waitress, and office works. When I left all of my supervisors ( all lady's ) had finished their Master programs.  One had started as a guard and one was the waitress.  

 

[Maha Sarakham]

After my wife came to the US, she was surprised that people were so busy at work here.  As in, they actually had to work.  While she personally likes to stay busy, many in Thailand just want to sit on their phone and don't want to do anything.  That's why you see so many people working in places like HomePro.  The preference to just stand around all day in A/C with no sun is far preferred over farm labor that will make the skin dark and involve having to actually do something.