Opinion: Foreign land ownership debate offers a chance for outside-the-box solutions

[webfact]

 

By Ton Panon Leelamanit

 

It’s been in the news everywhere that the Thai government is planning to entice foreigners to come and live in the country to stimulate the post COVID-19 economy.

 

And as part of the plan, it has been said that the cabinet is ready to amend land ownership regulations to allow foreigners to purchase and own land in Thailand.

 

This foreign land ownership issue was one of the most hotly debated topics amongst younger liberal Thais who find this policy strange and a bit too liberal. 

 

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Full story: https://www.thaienquirer.com/33181/opinion-foreign-land-ownership-debate-offers-a-chance-for-outside-the-box-solutions/

 

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[DaveSamutP]

I can understand any nation's citizens being spooked by something like this.

 

That said, the government's job here is to convince the Thais that they need foreigners in this capacity (and other capacities). And, that is where is falls down. 99.8% of the time, the governments here perpetuate the us vs them (locals good, foreigners bad) ideology that permeates throughout virtually all aspects of life in Thailand.

 

How to reverse generations of that thinking suddenly? Not an easy task.

[Misterwhisper]

58 minutes ago, webfact said:

the most hotly debated topics amongst younger liberal Thais who find this policy strange and a bit too liberal. 

Too liberal for the liberals? Well, perhaps they are not so liberal after all.

 

 

[Changbeer4me]

If the current situation we see daily

with annoucements only to be reversed or canned the following day are any indication.   

 

How can anyone one have certainty going forward.

 

The last few years have been wasted oppitunity to change and remake a lot of outdated policies and systems.

 

This will not bode well for Thailand going forward.

 

 

[khunPer]

A difficult balance - it makes good sense to allow a certain level of property ownership for foreigners that contributes to the Thai economy, one way or the other, and also make it attractive for these foreigners to invest in Thaiand in both a home, and other items.

 

Educated people that will settle and work in the nation - or educate locals - are a huge benefit to make the nation move up; i.e. needed specialist in production, and needed teachers in education system. And those people also pays both some income tax - due to their higher level of income - and some property tax, and v.a.t. from their consumption, which also gives work to Thais, and turnover in Thai business.

 

Retirees and on-line workers - and they don't need to be that wealthy, just those that can afford the around 800k deposit level - who invest in a home, and some also in family, all spend money, which in average might easily be around the 65,000 baht or more each month, including some taxes, which are both v.a.t. and others; many still buys a vehicle, or two.

 

Foreigners married to a Thai should also be allowed to stay in previous common property upon death of a Thai spouse, the survivor can still benefit to the nation (looked at from a pure economic view).

 

The difficult balance is however how much land-ownership shall be allowed, not to tip the property market over, where the existing shell-companies for foreign ownership should be included in the investigation, as they are already a player on the market and it's property prices; it's however difficult to guess any specific numbers for how much they weigh, without facts.

 

The existing 40-milion baht investor visa that allows up to 1 rai foreign ownership might be worth to compare with. ½-rai land would equal many "normal" sized plot for a home - excluding that for real wealthy expats that was the original target, who might have larger wishes for an acceptable manor... - so perhaps something like that might worth considering.

I know it's not popular to mention in a foreigner's forum, but for example also a reasonable small extra foreign-owner property tax, or a residence requirement that the owner shall live in the property more than 180 days per year, to avoid financial gain speculation, and to keep property market in balance for the Thai buyers...????

 

 

[BangkokReady]

3 hours ago, Misterwhisper said:

Too liberal for the liberals? Well, perhaps they are not so liberal after all.

For many, their liberalness seems to begin where they want something and end where they don't.  For example, a lot of Thais who demand free speech and democracy don't want anyone to be allowed to criticise their movement or praise the government.

 

Sadly, as is often the case these days, it seems people are far more interested in using elements of a certain ideology to get what they want, not to further that ideology where it does not benefit them.

 

A little disappointing.

Edited September 27, 2021 by BangkokReady

[barefootbangkok]

Every few years, the government tries to revoke the right of businesses to own property.  The last time they tried, the stock market fell 25% in a few hours due to the backlash of foreign businesses, so the government backed down and said it was just a joke.

 

I've been here for 20 years now and invested in real estate for many years. In their hearts, most Thais don't believe that foreigners should be able to own land or even condos.  The hardliners don't like the fact that foreigners own condos even though it's how so many Thais have become rich beyond their dreams.  Many many Thais don't believe that foreigners should even have the ability to live here!

 

Times are hard now, so maybe the government will allow foreigners the right to buy land and houses... temporarily only!!!  When the hard times are over, there's no question in my mind that Thailand will revoke that right whether or not foreigners lose all or most of their investment.  So if you plan to buy land or a house in Thailand, remember the old saying "If you want to make a small fortune in Thailand, start with a large fortune!"

[hotchilli]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

And as part of the plan, it has been said that the cabinet is ready to amend land ownership regulations to allow foreigners to purchase and own land in Thailand.

Own land possibly, but there will be more strings attached than the front row in an orchestra.

[hotchilli]

4 hours ago, DaveSamutP said:

I can understand any nation's citizens being spooked by something like this.

 

That said, the government's job here is to convince the Thais that they need foreigners in this capacity (and other capacities). And, that is where is falls down. 99.8% of the time, the governments here perpetuate the us vs them (locals good, foreigners bad) ideology that permeates throughout virtually all aspects of life in Thailand.

 

How to reverse generations of that thinking suddenly? Not an easy task.

In a word :

It's called assimilation?

Assimilation, in anthropology and sociology, the process whereby individuals or groups of differing ethnic heritage are absorbed into the dominant culture of a society. ... As such, assimilation is the most extreme form of acculturation.

Thailand resists this in every form.

[userabcd]

What exactly is attractive about owning property in Thailand other than developers making money building more and more shoebox condos and continually increasing the prices.

 

They rely on selling part to foreigners who mostly have limited residency and ownership rights and strict financial controls.

 

In Thonglor area there are about 6 new developments completed and 3 new huge condo buildings just starting. One is an ugly glass cladded building and the prices for a condo start from 30 million baht.

 

It is just astounding the money being asked for in some of these developments and the question is where all the money is coming from.

Edited September 27, 2021 by userabcd

[zzaa09]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

In a word :

It's called assimilation?

Assimilation, in anthropology and sociology, the process whereby individuals or groups of differing ethnic heritage are absorbed into the dominant culture of a society. ... As such, assimilation is the most extreme form of acculturation.

Thailand resists this in every form.

That's quite lovely on the surface and in textbooks. 

Yet, the greater percentage of Farang don't have any such inkling to acclimate or assimilate here. 

 

Kamen, Lao, Karen, Mihn, Malay, Chinese, etc - all easily assimilate in one form or another.

But Westerner types? Not.

Why is this?

[ThLT]

To clarify: "foreigners" doesn't mean around 1000 European-descent foreigners owning land. "Foreigners" also means a flood of Chinese people owning land, in large numbers. 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by ThLT

[Elkski]

Just considering the condo part of this new idea to generate 1 trillion in 10 years is it? So many condos built and in the works.  So expensive for what you get. They have been planning on 49% foreign buyers.  Now they have almost zero buyers. So they have tossed in the idea that 99% foreign buyers is ok but no voting rights.   Just shows the greedy mentality and intentions.   If I was Thai I would say no.  Let condo prices fall 50% like they should so I can buy one.  It would be interesting to see a list of all the investors names of the 10 biggest condo projects, down to names.    

I think China is pulling the strings on this idea. The rules will benefit them the most. 

[Marco100]

What is the purpose of this law ?

-- Sell and give ownership large ammount of land to single foreign entities ?

If that is the purpose than is not creating added value to the Country .

-- I assume is to stimulate the real estate market .

To avoid large amounts of properties holded by a single entity or single beneficiary than limit land ownership to specific zones the authorities want to promote and specific ammount of land one entity and / or one beneficiary can own as a person or as a beneficiary of a company .

Something in this direction could help avoid that large Investors or Corporates becomes owner of large portion of the country .

 

[Autonuaq]

the nice thing is that you feel you own the land and have a document that tell you own it. all as long as the nation and its laws allow it. when laws change it can become the opposite and land you can not take with you at all like with other assets you can do this. WE have seen this happen many times around the world in the east as well in the west. 

[zzaa09]

58 minutes ago, ThLT said:

To clarify: "foreigners" doesn't mean around 1000 European-descent foreigners owning land. "Foreigners" also means a flood of Chinese people owning land, in large numbers. 

 

They already do through indirect bloodlines. 

The most influential culture, historically. 

[digger70]

Why shouldn't Foreigners own land in Thailand? Thais own Land in other countries .So what's the big deal.

It's ok for a Thai to own property in a Foreign country .

But  in Satans Name they don't want a Foreigner to own property in Thailand .

Do they Really think that they are better the a Foreigner? I will say No.

[metisdead]

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[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, zzaa09 said:

But Westerner types? Not.

Why is this?

Race and culture is too different to even begin, unlike the others you have listed that have many things in common.  Three or four of the neighboring countries have such a mixed history they're practically the same people.

 

Also they probably know that there is nothing they can do to be fully or even partially assimilated; and even if they spend their whole life in Thailand, marry a Thai, have Thai children, speak Thai fluently, they will likely be treated no differently to a backpacker who just got off the plane.  Not exactly motivating.

Edited September 27, 2021 by BangkokReady

[zzaa09]

12 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Race and culture is too different to even begin, unlike the others you have listed that have many things in common.  Three or four of the neighboring countries have such a mixed history they're practically the same people.

 

Also they probably know that there is nothing they can do to be fully or even partially assimilated; and even if they spend their whole life in Thailand, marry a Thai, have Thai children, speak Thai fluently, they will likely be treated no differently to a backpacker who just got off the plane.  Not exactly motivating.

As per Farang [the worst example], all dependent on how you want to acclimate and one's character - you realize Thais pick up on how one truly is. And for you to ferment the usual stereotypical nature of what Thais might or might not be is not surprising. Not all situations and instances are gathered from the same old homogenous textbook. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by zzaa09

[BangkokReady]

3 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Not all situations and instances are gathered from the same old homogenous textbook.

Enough to put some people off.  You asked, I answered.  Don't blame me if you don't like the answer.

[4MyEgo]

All this coming at a time where property markets around the world are about to crash, 4, 3, 2, 1, months time, happy 2022.

[hotchilli]

12 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

That's quite lovely on the surface and in textbooks. 

Yet, the greater percentage of Farang don't have any such inkling to acclimate or assimilate here. 

 

Kamen, Lao, Karen, Mihn, Malay, Chinese, etc - all easily assimilate in one form or another.

But Westerner types? Not.

Why is this?

Speaking only for myself, after 13 years of living here continuously, and not actually leaving the country even for a holiday which I take within Thailand [which I do consider my home]

I'm tired of having to tell IO every 90 days that I'm still here.

At the end of October next month I shall again tell immigration for the 45th time that I'm here and residing at the same address...

PERHAPS IF WE'RE TREATED LIKE LOCALS/NATIONALS WE'LL BEHAVE LIKE ONE.

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, hotchilli said:

In a word :

It's called assimilation?

Assimilation, in anthropology and sociology, the process whereby individuals or groups of differing ethnic heritage are absorbed into the dominant culture of a society. ... As such, assimilation is the most extreme form of acculturation.

Thailand resists this in every form.

Frequently cited as not working very well in quite a few European countries. 

[zzaa09]

9 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Frequently cited as not working very well in quite a few European countries. 

Indeed. 

And never really has worked out well, throughout the West

All the while, those same Eurocentrics cry out hypocritically when such isn't practiced here....even if it is. 

[hotchilli]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Frequently cited as not working very well in quite a few European countries. 

I wasn't talking about Europe... but thanks for the info.

[connda]

There is a huge difference between a guy like me married to a Thai national being able to put their name on a land deed on a piece of property they'll probably die on, and voracious capitalists looking to scarf up properties and flipping them for profit.  The former does nothing to real estate prices; the latter puts real estate prices out of reach of normal Thais.   Which may just be the plan.  Essentially the power elite are now selling the country to the highest bidders.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by connda

[Keesters]

On 9/27/2021 at 1:34 PM, khunPer said:

A difficult balance - it makes good sense to allow a certain level of property ownership for foreigners that contributes to the Thai economy, one way or the other, and also make it attractive for these foreigners to invest in Thaiand in both a home, and other items.

 

Educated people that will settle and work in the nation - or educate locals - are a huge benefit to make the nation move up; i.e. needed specialist in production, and needed teachers in education system. And those people also pays both some income tax - due to their higher level of income - and some property tax, and v.a.t. from their consumption, which also gives work to Thais, and turnover in Thai business.

 

Retirees and on-line workers - and they don't need to be that wealthy, just those that can afford the around 800k deposit level - who invest in a home, and some also in family, all spend money, which in average might easily be around the 65,000 baht or more each month, including some taxes, which are both v.a.t. and others; many still buys a vehicle, or two.

 

Foreigners married to a Thai should also be allowed to stay in previous common property upon death of a Thai spouse, the survivor can still benefit to the nation (looked at from a pure economic view).

 

The difficult balance is however how much land-ownership shall be allowed, not to tip the property market over, where the existing shell-companies for foreign ownership should be included in the investigation, as they are already a player on the market and it's property prices; it's however difficult to guess any specific numbers for how much they weigh, without facts.

 

The existing 40-milion baht investor visa that allows up to 1 rai foreign ownership might be worth to compare with. ½-rai land would equal many "normal" sized plot for a home - excluding that for real wealthy expats that was the original target, who might have larger wishes for an acceptable manor... - so perhaps something like that might worth considering.

I know it's not popular to mention in a foreigner's forum, but for example also a reasonable small extra foreign-owner property tax, or a residence requirement that the owner shall live in the property more than 180 days per year, to avoid financial gain speculation, and to keep property market in balance for the Thai buyers...????

 

 

Sounds good, but may I please request one thing extra.

 

Thais must keep their dogs quiet. 

[Keesters]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:18 PM, zzaa09 said:

That's quite lovely on the surface and in textbooks. 

Yet, the greater percentage of Farang don't have any such inkling to acclimate or assimilate here. 

 

Kamen, Lao, Karen, Mihn, Malay, Chinese, etc - all easily assimilate in one form or another.

But Westerner types? Not.

Why is this?

What about Asian types in Birmingham & London. They do little to assimilate too.

 

Why is this?