Electric vehicles of all kinds

[Longwood50]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Actually it's more like 12k - 16k to replace the whole pack.  Much less if just replacing the bad cells.

Google can be your friend.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-car-over-22k-battery-replacement-report-121122400769_1.html

 

 

[KhunLA]

48 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Google can be your friend.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-car-over-22k-battery-replacement-report-121122400769_1.html

 

 

Only proves he's not a very thrifty shopper ... ????   Although I'm sure they made 2-5-10 times that amount with the vid.  Great self marketing.

 

He could of spent $10k ish or less, and kept the car running for another 200 kms, or spend $30-40-50-60k for something newer, whether ICE or EV.   Obviously neither was his mission with the vid.

 

Only the most ignorant buy into such silly vids.

 

There are choices ... UP2U

Edited December 30, 2021 by KhunLA

[Kanada]

20 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

This could slow down the appetite for electric cars.  $22,000 USD to replace a Tesla battery. 

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tesla-blows-up-repair-bill-b1983369.html


 

Sorry I don’t believe that $ number!

[digbeth]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

As I stated elsewhere, I'd buy the Wuling Hong Guang MINI EV, if priced under ฿200k registered.  A bit more than the price in China.

 

But here, it sells for ฿369k unregistered, 2X the China price.  More than a few baht more, than a Suzuki Celerio.  The Wuling would be great for around town, and very short outings locally.  About the same I use my e-scooter for.  Advantage of car of course, rainy season and back seat / trunk area, though useless as a seat, unless having small children.

 

The Fomm is overpriced for the specs, and I have a hard time justifying ฿1m for 4 wheel transport.  Don't fit comfortably through the door of the MG EP, so would have to be the ZS or Haval H6 @ ฿1.2m, about the same cost as my house, so that ain't happening either.

For the price around 300K you can get decent eco-car which at least survivable in a crash whereas the wuling would be quite deadly, 

 

The Fomm's hand throttle is a deal breaker 

[seedy]

3 minutes ago, digbeth said:

For the price around 300K you can get decent eco-car which at least survivable in a crash whereas the wuling would be quite deadly, 

The Fomm's hand throttle is a deal breaker 

The ones I see around CNX - if they come in a cardboard box, better save it and wrap around the car. To increase crash protection.

They would suffer serious damage hitting a bike.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, seedy said:

Topic title - "Electric vehicles of all kinds"

See no mention of geography. Know of no EV made in LOS.

Thailand has a motor industry in the world top ten. All registrations are set to be electric by 2033.

They also are already producing components and batteries. A lot of companies already have TKD facilities here so its only a matter of months before they start. Mercedes, MG, Hyundai all have a presence here.

PTT have plans to build a car here shortly.

The EEC corridor will see new facilities built.

Edited December 30, 2021 by kwilco

[seedy]

So ... no EV made here

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, digbeth said:

For the price around 300K you can get decent eco-car...

... not in Thailand, unless I missed something.  Fomm doesn't do anything for me, especially at that price point.

 

Wuling would be just around town, 15-30 kms a day, and what I do now on the scooter.  Risk of accident almost nil ... with another car anyway.  Wouldn't pay more than 200k for it though, as don't need ...  I just like. 

 

I only go to the park, 1/2 km away or the surf 1.5 km away, along with a ride along the surf for a few kms everyday with the doy.  Less than 5 kms away when we move next year, so a tinker car is fine.

 

They sell another one here, 165/249/279k but the specs aren't as good, and company has no real track record.  

https://xn--m3cbjb3aaodh0nxab5rucxb.com/#suv

Edited December 30, 2021 by KhunLA

[Longwood50]

3 hours ago, Kanada said:

Sorry I don’t believe that $ number!

 

Google can be your friend. 

 

Now this man lived in Finland so perhaps that might have something to do with the higher cost.  As I understand it, he estimated the cost of the battery to be approximately 50% of what used Tesla's like his were selling for.  

Given that all electric cars will eventually require their batteries to be replaced, the cost of that would have to be factored into the cost efficiency of the car.  One thing would be true, and that is if you had to pay for that replacement it would result in a significant "maintenance cost" even if factored over 7 to 10 years.  If you did not replace the battery I suspect the resale value of an electric car plummets exponentially as it starts to approach the time a used car buyer knows that the batteries will require replacement. 

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tesla-blows-up-repair-bill-b1983369.html
 

https://www.wrdw.com/2021/12/30/tesla-owner-blows-up-car-over-22000-repair-bill/
 

https://www.gulftoday.ae/news/2021/12/22/man-blows-up-his-tesla-with-dynamite-for-$22000-repair-charges

 

[Longwood50]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Only proves he's not a very thrifty shopper .

No only proves that replacing a battery in a Tesla can be prohibitively expensive.  Now this man lives in Finland,  The battery replacement might be cheaper in the USA but you pay the repair costs based on where you live not where you can get the repair done cheaper.  

Same as here in Thailand.  The cost of a Camry here is nearly double the price of a Camry in the USA.  But if you want a Camry here it is going to cost you.  

In the USA I can buy a Brand New Top Model Lexus RX 350 for between  $45,320 - $52,600 USD which is between 1.5 million baht and for the top model 1.76 million baht.  Buy the same car here in Thailand and the price of the top model will approach 7 million baht. 

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

No only proves that replacing a battery in a Tesla can be prohibitively expensive.  Now this man lives in Finland,  The battery replacement might be cheaper in the USA but you pay the repair costs based on where you live not where you can get the repair done cheaper.  

Same as here in Thailand.  The cost of a Camry here is nearly double the price of a Camry in the USA.  But if you want a Camry here it is going to cost you.  

In the USA I can buy a Brand New Top Model Lexus RX 350 for between  $45,320 - $52,600 USD which is between 1.5 million baht and for the top model 1.76 million baht.  Buy the same car here in Thailand and the price of the top model will approach 7 million baht. 

 

All issues, a thrifty shopper, should know before purchasing.  First thing I asked before I bought my scooter, was how much for a replacement battery.  What and how it's attached, along with dimensions, for alternatives, JIC.  

 

Although with the 2 yr warranty, and rated for 1200 cycles, not much I need to worry about.

 

Another reason I'm not ready for the MG ZS EV or similar, besides the price tag vs my ZS (ICE), what's the resale / trade-in value going to be in 5-8 yrs, or worse 9 yrs, and who would buy.

 

EV makers need to guarantee a trade in value (pro-rated), on their next purchase at same brand dealer, and I think that would go a long way to boost sales.  As that's a big question mark, many aren't ready to roll the dice on.  Over the life of the warranty, by my quick calculations, a ZS EV vs ICE will pay for itself, but at the end of that 8 yrs, what are we talking.

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, seedy said:

So ... no EV made here

You don't seem to realise  how facile your comment is. What are you trying to imply?

Nothing? A totally pointless post?

 

[Longwood50]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

EV makers need to guarantee a trade in value (pro-rated),

You have hit on a point that is often disregarded.  The cost of a car includes, what you pay for it, how much it costs to operate it, minus what you get for it, after you eventually sell it. 

In the beginning, General Motors would only "lease" not sell its electric vehicles.  By doing that, the user knew exactly what cost they would incur per month.  GM knew that new technology, and unknown resale value would stop potential future buyers, so to prevent that, they leased only. 

I have not run the calculations on an electric vehicle.  However, they cost more than a comparable gasoline model.  They are expensive to completely replace the batteries when they are needed.  By contrast, a used motor in an 8 year old Camry is pretty cheap, but a complete new battery pack in an 8 year old electric Camry is not cheap. 

My own personal experience comes only with owning a Lexus Hybrid.  I paid 25% more for the hybrid over its comparable gasoline model.  It got no better gas mileage than the other 4 identical Lexus SUV models that I owned previously and when I sold it 4 years later the resale value on the Hybrid was identical to the gasoline models that as said, sold for 25% lower price to begin with. 

My suspicion is that electric vehicles will prove economical the more miles you drive.  Hybrids will only prove economical for those who drive almost exclusively city stop and go traffic.  If electric cars are 'truly cheaper"  the marketplace will favor them, providing the nuisance of constantly having to stop and recharge is minimized. 

For now, at first glance, the higher up front cost and the likelihood that the resale value will be hugely impacted the closer it is likely that the batteries will have to be replaced.  Those "used cars" are worth only what the marketplace says they are worth.  Having the manufacturer guarantee a resale value only places them at risk for taking the loss if the resale value of those used electrics is low.  To make up for that, they would have to increase the original price to compensate for future losses which does nothing but push the cost to the front end. 

I would prefer for the marketplace to dictate whether it is gas, hybrid, electric, or perhaps hydrogen power etc that turns out to be the best value.  Having bureaucrats decide that "electric" is the only option only guarantees that those with the most to benefit from electric car sales will make sure there is enough graft passed on to politicians to make that happen. 

 

[kwilco]

8 hours ago, seedy said:

So ... no EV made here

You don't seem to realise  how facile your comment is. What are you trying to imply?

Nothing? A totally pointless post?

 

[kwilco]

People seem to be basing their arguments by cherry-picking premises that suit their argument rather than rational evidence.

Since 1991, the cost of lithium-ion batteries has fallen by over 97%. Global average battery prices fell a further 6% from 2020 to 2021, and Bloomberg New Energy Finance predicts that by 2024, the cost to produce an EV battery will be roughly $100 per kWh. 

$100 per kWh is widely believed to be the point at which EVs will be cheaper to produce than petrol or diesel cars. But it won’t stop there. BNEF believes that by 2030, the cost to produce an EV battery could be as low as $74 per kWh - Bloomberg.

Edited December 30, 2021 by kwilco

[kwilco]

I'm not dure ekectric cars are the best dupion....hydrogen is being backed by Toyota.

However one thing is sure is that "market forces" is interpreted by capitalists never were and never will be the solution. We live in a society that makes joi t decisions and that, based on science not the condtruct of money will be the best way of finding the best possible solution.

[KhunLA]

There are a few EVs (cars & scooters) made / assembled in Thailand.  Couple more will be added to that list, this coming year and next.

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/transport/the-latest-on-ev-production-in-thailand

 

[seedy]

12 hours ago, KhunLA said:

EV makers need to guarantee a trade in value (pro-rated), on their next purchase at same brand dealer, and I think that would go a long way to boost sales. 

I suspect most of the new EV manufacturers - in China especially, will not be around when it is time for battery replacement.

Many jumping on the band wagon now. Once the market settles, you will see who is still standing and you can purchase accordingly.

To say nothing of the Butt Fugly products on offer now.

[kwilco]

10 minutes ago, seedy said:

I suspect most of the new EV manufacturers - in China especially, will not be around when it is time for battery replacement.

Many jumping on the band wagon now. Once the market settles, you will see who is still standing and you can purchase accordingly.

To say nothing of the Butt Fugly products on offer now.

2 things seem to arise out of your posts. Firstly you simply don't like EVs and secondly you don't know anything about them 

[seedy]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

2 things seem to arise out of your posts. Firstly you simply don't like EVs and secondly you don't know anything about them 

Cloud Cuckoo land comes to mind

Been following developments in China lately ?

Thought not - glued to Musks twitter posts most likely

[seedy]

Hino Project Z

https://www.hino-global.com/corp/news/2020/20201006-002702.html

 

[KhunLA]

As suspected, more to that blowing up Tesla car story.  Not the original owner, bought obviously out of warranty, and nothing but a show for monetized clicks.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/blowing-up-your-tesla-model-s-with-66-lbs-of-dynamite-is-a-strange-form-of-protest-176922.html

 

"Katainen says he bought it second-hand and that he only got to drive it for 1,500 km (932 miles) before errors began popping up and the car stopped functioning."

 

[seedy]

Much of America’s current electric power — there is no single national electric power system — consists of decades-old facilities and other infrastructure. Given the cost and time of modernization, it is likely that much will remain the same for decades to come. That this "system" is vulnerable and subject to a variety of threats — from climate change, malware or the inability to robustly predict future electricity consumption — is not in doubt

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/road-electric-vehicles-paved-disruption

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, seedy said:

Much of America’s current electric power — there is no single national electric power system — consists of decades-old facilities and other infrastructure. Given the cost and time of modernization, it is likely that much will remain the same for decades to come. That this "system" is vulnerable and subject to a variety of threats — from climate change, malware or the inability to robustly predict future electricity consumption — is not in doubt

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/road-electric-vehicles-paved-disruption

Wrong. That the system is so antiquated just means it will be replaced with renewables more quickly. In currently California are nuclear reactors are being decommissioned and replaced with wind and solar farms. 

 

Currently (no pun intended) 60% of power in southern California is provided by wind and another 35% is solar. 

[KhunLA]

I was thinking (it happens), the other day, and another aspect of buyers not jumping on the EV bandwagon, they aren't exactly 'user friendly' for self repairing.  

 

Not an issue now, as all under warranty for 8 yrs, but after that, motorheads, now needing to be sparkys to work on their vehicles, the construction of, just guessing, isn't user friendly.

 

I don't think they will be, until one of the manufacturer comes out with a user friendly 'battery pack/bank' that is accessible, and cells replaceable by the user.  Some type of 'sliding rack' or 'stacked' rack, where the trunk used to be, and total redesign in future cars.

 

People are building their own battery banks / racks for home solar systems, and easy enough to swap out a bad cell when necessary.  EV battery packs are going to need to be easily accessible for users or 3rd party mechanics / sparkys to service them.  So buyers aren't dependent on dealers, who would rather profit by swapping whole racks instead of cells.  Would help keep them all honest.

 

Many folks aren't into the buy a new car every 3 or 5 yrs, and keep them till they die.  I was like that in the USA, and only owned 1 new car, and rarely sold a car.  It either died or I killed it, but could work on any aspect of repair while it still had life.

 

One reason I never bought diesel, as completely ignorant, though wouldn't buy one for other reasons.  I would hate taking a car for repair and being told this or that needs replacing without knowing the why or how it works.  

 

Until one manufacturer makes a user friendly, serviceable battery bank, so the competition has to follow suit, we're all going to be at the mercy of the dealers, and what they say.  At least for couple years, until more non-dealer service shop market expands.  Very limited here, and no market for it, and with 8 yr warranties, will be sometime before it even develops here.

 

One more reason the EV market here will be limited to the HiSo car buyer.  Or folks like myself, will just have e-scooters for everyday use, cheap and self serviceable if needed.  Along with more than a few sparkys out there if can't be bothered to do it yourself.

 

 

 

[seedy]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Currently (no pun intended) 60% of power in southern California is provided by wind and another 35% is solar. 

Figures for 2020

Non renewables - 66.65%

Renewables - 33.35%

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2020-total-system-electric-generation

 

Seems just a LITTLE different than the balderdash you posted

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I was thinking (it happens), the other day, and another aspect of buyers not jumping on the EV bandwagon, they aren't exactly 'user friendly' for self repairing.  

I've had a lot more electric motors that ICE and the electrics seem much simpler to me. 

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not an issue now, as all under warranty for 8 yrs, but after that, motorheads, now needing to be sparkys to work on their vehicles, the construction of, just guessing, isn't user friendly.

But for the engine & transmission, I think maintenance on the vehicles should be very similar.

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I don't think they will be, until one of the manufacturer comes out with a user friendly 'battery pack/bank' that is accessible, and cells replaceable by the user.  Some type of 'sliding rack' or 'stacked' rack, where the trunk used to be, and total redesign in future cars.

There are not enough people that service their own vehicle now to make it a concern for any manufacturer, and few of the people that actually do there own service are buying new cars. 

 

Manufacturers are already incentivized to minimize the time and effort required service the vehicle as it reduces the total cost of ownership. 

I bet less than 5% of new car buyers change their own oil. So it they will not spend a half-hour every six-months to service n ICE, why would they want to spend any time servicing their EV?

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

People are building their own battery banks / racks for home solar systems, and easy enough to swap out a bad cell when necessary.  EV battery packs are going to need to be easily accessible for users or 3rd party mechanics / sparkys to service them.  So buyers aren't dependent on dealers, who would rather profit by swapping whole racks instead of cells.  Would help keep them all honest.

If the dealers are changing out entire racks rather than cells, and assuming they have to dispose of the old cells, presumably to licensed recyclers, will that not drive an entire industry providing recycled batteries?

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Many folks aren't into the buy a new car every 3 or 5 yrs, and keep them till they die.  I was like that in the USA, and only owned 1 new car, and rarely sold a car.  It either died or I killed it, but could work on any aspect of repair while it still had life.

Yes, people are keeping their cars longer than ever, but it is much more common to see electric motors that are fifty years old than ICEs that are fifty years old. 

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

One reason I never bought diesel, as completely ignorant, though wouldn't buy one for other reasons.  I would hate taking a car for repair and being told this or that needs replacing without knowing the why or how it works. 

There are a lot of reasons to not like diesels, but I don't think this is one of them. 

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Until one manufacturer makes a user friendly, serviceable battery bank, so the competition has to follow suit, we're all going to be at the mercy of the dealers, and what they say.  At least for couple years, until more non-dealer service shop market expands.  Very limited here, and no market for it, and with 8 yr warranties, will be sometime before it even develops here.

If not being able to self-service the batteries is keeping a significant number of people from buying EVs, you can bet EVERY manufacturer is working on it and wants to be first to offer it. 

 

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

One more reason the EV market here will be limited to the HiSo car buyer.  Or folks like myself, will just have e-scooters for everyday use, cheap and self serviceable if needed.  Along with more than a few sparkys out there if can't be bothered to do it yourself.

In my opinion, most people are not buying EVs because it does not make economic sense. I would bet that a large majority of EV owners own a second vehicle that is not electric. 

[seedy]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

In my opinion, most people are not buying EVs because it does not make economic sense. I would bet that a large majority of EV owners own a second vehicle that is not electric. 

I would add the lack of infrastructure to this.

[Yellowtail]

15 minutes ago, seedy said:

Figures for 2020

Non renewables - 66.65%

Renewables - 33.35%

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2020-total-system-electric-generation

 

Seems just a LITTLE different than the balderdash you posted

Try again

 

1. I said current, not two years ago. 

2. I said Southern California, not California. 

[transam]

Early days for EV unless it is a local runaround. One guy was not impressed with his Tesla battery replacement costs of $22,000........????