Who needs foreign tourists?

[morrobay]

The point is the Thai drivers have to apply those breaks at a red light- some do some don't. It actually safer to cross anywhere else when it is clear. Rather than assume at a light they will stop.

[mran66]

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

I think you will find it's the Thai landlords driving the prices here, and they are not keen on "adjustments."  

correct...however, at the end they will optimize for ROI, but with a delay. 

 

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Thailand was outpricing itself in the South East Asia tourism market long before covid. 

 

Where do you think tourists will decide to go in the future when they learn Vietnam is not only cheaper, but is offering quality tourism infrastructure, which generally makes it a better value for money holiday.  

 

So, a "low starting point" country builds world record breaking infrastructure whilst an established country sits back and does nothing and you think that's just the low starting point country catching up.

 

Did you see it's "world record breaking?"  That means, the best in the world, not just against Thailand.  

 

 

They already have, pre covid, and it wasn't working out too well.  

 

 

It seems Thailand's neighbour, Vietnam, is developing their tourism industry a lot faster.   How many years do you give it before Vietnam's tourism industry  overtakes Thailand's tourism industry, sex tourism aside?

I think you have now made me curious enough and convinced me to go have a look at vietnam a bit more than I did couple of years ago, from south to north, to see how it compares to Thailand these days. I have to say my broader experience putting aside the short stay in HCM and Vung Tau is from long time ago, and skewed by personal taste

 

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

 

What improvements?  Can you name some?

So, you say there is a problem. What is it?

I mean just lack of general maintenance of public facilities in general, let it be road, street, sidewalk, beach, park, toilet, pier etc etc, without making them boring kitchy concrete scenes. Country would be substantially more beautiful with decent maintenance.

 

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

By Thailand staying still, and their competition moving forward so fast, Thailand is basically going backwards, and not an infrastructure project in sight to compete. 

 

I would short sell Thailand's tourism industry in a heart beat.   

wonder if there are good publicly listed proxy/proxies  representing thai tourism industry that would have a valuation history so that could look at that. Might well be an option, subject to valuation if such exists. 

[mran66]

3 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't....

...wonder if there is any official global statistics of causes of traffic accidents - if have, Thailand must be number one, with good margin, in category of brake failures!

 

very rare to read news in other countries media stating brake failure as quoted reason why the driver caused accident, but all too common here!

[mran66]

14 hours ago, lmxcredt said:

Not too sure what all the waffling on about tourist infrastructure is about. People don't come to Thailand for brand new shiny tack. They come for what it has always had: beaches, temples, night markets and bars. These don't require overhauls in infrastructure. They require maintaining things as they are, so people can experience them when they are full of authentic life. Overdevelop and you destroy the very thing people came to your country to see, which is an idea of paradise.

 

I am 25 and live in Bangkok, and I will say now the reason people my age will stop bothering with Thailand is because everywhere is overbuilt, the old school charm is being bulldozed, the beaches are <deleted> and it is no longer as cheap as it used to be. Many people my age would rather go to Laos or pre-coup Myanmar for kicks in Asia nowadays. This is not because Thailand isn't investing enough. Actually, if Thailand just stopped investing in crappy redevlopment projects, destroying the natural habitat that clings to life on the edge of beach towns, and stopped sanitising everywhere to turn places into overdeveloped malls, people might actually be interested again.

this is my line of thinking as well, actually did like you said 20+ years ago few times, however Lao and Myanmar have their limitations too, and are likely to remain marginal destinations for quite some time.

 

Development for tourism is very delicate art, and in many places in Asia it goes like you said, just horrible construction and even that is not maintained after its built. Nobody bothers to clean the beaches and other places. Even the nicely developed places suffer because no zoning nor maintenance, e.g nice garden beach hotel  next to slum or dirt dump. Getting rid of that is the type of development that would be needed, however unlikely until farang can become governor or major in the territory

 

 

14 hours ago, lmxcredt said:

 

Ask the average Brit my age where Pattaya is and they probably couldn't even tell you. Or might remember hearing about it once when someone made a joke, and liken it to a dead British seaside town full of an ageing retiree population akin to Benidorm (no offence, but everyone here knows it is true). People have a similar impression of Phuket. I think only the North retains its charm to the average young tourist.

...twenty years later many of you will know Pattaya 555...

 

14 hours ago, lmxcredt said:

 

But that said, young western tourists only make up a fraction of Thailands visitors, so my comments are limited. My info probably is irellevant and not relatable to most the posters here, but just wait 10-15 years and those who remember Thailand for what it was will be replaced by people my age who don't care for Pattaya and Phuket. By all means the Thai government can pump money into "tourist infrastructure", but more often than not this means concrete being poured on sand and paradise being turned into Alton Towers.

You are probably right, though still small part of your age group also will develop a taste for thailand, and due to ease of travel book a 2 week beach holiday in 5 star resort with your kids (...and few years later you will come alone 555...). As said before, your challenge will be that you are surrounded by noisy and messy crowd of chinese group tourists and smelly indians, blocking your travel on the streets with their buses

 

[jacko45k]

17 minutes ago, mran66 said:

very rare to read news in other countries media stating brake failure as quoted reason why the driver caused accident, but all too common here!

My gardener just arrived.... he probably has as much difficulty getting his vehicle stopped as he does getting it started.... it is decrepit. 

[Longwood50]

What people seem to forget is that certain activities are like the water that primes the pump.  Take manufacturing, if you produce a product everyone who supplies that manufacturer has a job supplying it with raw materials, energy, a building, maintenance, insurance, trucking, retail sales people, etc.  Those people earn money from supplying the business and they spend it, helping all the other parts of the economy expand.  

Tourism is the same.  While it officially is only about 7% of GDP, that is the money spent directly by the tourists.  That money ends up in the hands of the retailers, their vendors who supply them with products, the restaurants, the restaurant workers, the farmers who grow the food sold in the restaurants, the taxi drivers, the boat tour operators etc.  They spend that money on homes, energy, food, clothing, insurance, etc.  Without those tourist dollars that money never makes it to Thailand.  Just like there is a multiplier effect for money that is spent and circulates through the economy, the reverse is true and the effect multiplied when money is not spend in Thailand from tourists.  Much more than the 7% of GDP is impacted. 

[spidermike007]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:22 PM, In Full Agreement said:

I have never been and will never be intimidated by or a member of the dictatorship of political correct language

 

Are you equally opposed to basic and common courtesy?

 

I feel the same way. To be cowered by the PC crowd, is to give in to extremism, and give up your manhood. Like Clint said, PC is just weak! However, we can agree to disagree, in a civilized and respectful manner. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by spidermike007

[morrobay]

They have gotten carried away with these concrete infrastructure kickback projects.  Near Naklua lam pho seafood market . Before and the sh*t show now. 

[morrobay]

The only foreign tourism they can count on In any significant numbers would be the oblivious chinese. Together with Indians and Russians. Because of the clueless Thais and thainess, the trash,dogs, and ruining the natural environment. Westerners are not going to put up with this. They lost the mini summer July/August high season Europeans with two consecutive beach Rd/promenade "infrastructure improvements" See photo taken about mid 00,s. Before improvements Thiss is not about the good old days, bla,bla,bla. This is about the destruction of nice environment. Take a look at the wastelands in that area now: across from Sois 13/4 and 13/3

 

.

 

 

[sscc]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

As I have said before, Thailand was "cheap and nasty" but a good time could be had by all here. 

 

Now, Thailand is not so cheap, but the nasty still remains. 

 

Middle income earners from the west will not pay decent money to be surrounded by "nasty" and high end tourists are seeking the helicopter / cable car experience, to use your example.

 

This is why I have said Thailand has placed itself in an awkward position in the tourism market in South East Asia.  Too expensive for lower incomes, too cheap for higher incomes.

 

 

Has Thailand developed at the same rate?  Think, Nokia phone company again.  

 

 

So that would be quantity over quality.  How do you think that will work out for Thailand, 5 to 10 years from now?

 

What's better, 100 million tourists spending 1 billion dollars, or 50 million tourists spending 2 billion dollars, to use round figures for the example.  

 

That was the good old days for Thailand.  Now, it's a worn out shadow of its former self, due to zero investment in tourist infrastructure.    

 

 

I don't agree to all your points about infrastructure,  nonetheless it is not my intention going about infrastructure build-up. 

 

I suspect one item that may incidentally tilt some balance only for Asian tourists, particularly the younger groups. 

A thing I dislike much,  still cannisbis weed consumption in LOS may be a low profile draw card in the future.  Again we are talking about Asian markets only,  not Westerner tourists. 

 

 

 

[morrobay]

2 hours ago, morrobay said:

The only foreign tourism they can count on In any significant numbers would be the oblivious chinese. Together with Indians and Russians. Because of the clueless Thais and thainess, the trash,dogs, and ruining the natural environment. Westerners are not going to put up with this. They lost the mini summer July/August high season Europeans with two consecutive beach Rd/promenade "infrastructure improvements" See photo taken about mid 00,s. Before improvements Thiss is not about the good old days, bla,bla,bla. This is about the destruction of nice environment. Take a look at the wastelands in that area now: across from Sois 13/4 and 13/3

 

.

 

 

Scroll down to girl with balloon. The photos 

taken just now are in same location. If the chinese want to swoop  into beach and second roads and buy up and renew it fine with me. Because it's getting ugly. 

[morrobay]

Post above after infrastructure project. These screenshots are from before . Credit to @plahgat for the classics.

[Cherrytreeview]

9 hours ago, morrobay said:

They have gotten carried away with these concrete infrastructure kickback projects.  Near Naklua lam pho seafood market . Before and the sh*t show now. 

I used to go to the seafood market on a baht bus from Soi 15.

Girlfriend would shop for seafood and then a vendor would barbaque it.

We would throw a matt down and she would tuck in.

I would take a walk to the harbour view beyond or walk in this tree lined area.

Then a baht bus back into central Pattaya, passing the various schools finishing for the day.

It was a gentle and beautiful way to put in a few hours.

They are meant to be putting a multi storey car pack here, with a park area.

I hope they don't destroy this area and give me another reason to be in no hurry to return to Pattaya.

 

 

 

[Leaver]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:16 AM, mran66 said:

correct...however, at the end they will optimize for ROI, but with a delay. 

 

They have shown a reluctance to do so in the past.  

 

Why do you think they will accept a market adjustment now?  

 

On 10/18/2021 at 11:16 AM, mran66 said:

I think you have now made me curious enough and convinced me to go have a look at vietnam a bit more than I did couple of years ago, from south to north, to see how it compares to Thailand these days. I have to say my broader experience putting aside the short stay in HCM and Vung Tau is from long time ago, and skewed by personal taste

 

 

It's not only Vietnam is offering a better value for money holiday for tourists, it's also Thailand is doing nothing new to compete with Vietnam.  

 

For how long does Thailand think the tourists will just keep coming, because Thailand is Thailand? 

 

On 10/18/2021 at 11:16 AM, mran66 said:

I mean just lack of general maintenance of public facilities in general, let it be road, street, sidewalk, beach, park, toilet, pier etc etc, without making them boring kitchy concrete scenes. Country would be substantially more beautiful with decent maintenance.

 

 

Meanwhile, apparently a poorer country, is building record breaking tourist infrastructure and attractions, whilst Thailand can't even have an even sidewalk.   

 

Once again, how does Thailand hope to compete in the future?  

 

On 10/18/2021 at 11:16 AM, mran66 said:

wonder if there are good publicly listed proxy/proxies  representing thai tourism industry that would have a valuation history so that could look at that. Might well be an option, subject to valuation if such exists. 

 

If there was a futures market on Thai tourism and Vietnam tourism, which one would you put your money on?

[Leaver]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:19 PM, sscc said:

I don't agree to all your points about infrastructure,  nonetheless it is not my intention going about infrastructure build-up. 

 

I suspect one item that may incidentally tilt some balance only for Asian tourists, particularly the younger groups. 

Jan 2020 tourism stats for Vietnam.  Up 32% from the previous year.   (pre covid)

 

 https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

That's a big increase for just "one item" of infrastructure.  

[Gottfrid]

Who needs foreign tourists?????

Hmmm.....Thailand, would be my guess.

[Leaver]

25 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Who needs foreign tourists?????

Hmmm.....Thailand, would be my guess.

 

For a country that relies on tourism for around 17% of its GDP, and for a lot of its unofficial employment numbers, it's crazy how there are no proper tourism infrastructure projects planned, whilst the same old scams, extortions,  rip offs, over charging, monopoly, collusion, dual pricing etc still continue, after so long.  

 

They really do think that everyone will keep coming back to Thailand, because it's Thailand.  I guess just the same way Nokia thought everyone would keep buying Nokia phones, because they are Nokia phones.  

[HashBrownHarry]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

Jan 2020 tourism stats for Vietnam.  Up 32% from the previous year.   (pre covid)

 

 https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

That's a big increase for just "one item" of infrastructure.  

When you leaving for Vietnam if it's so good?

[newnative]

13 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

They have shown a reluctance to do so in the past.  

 

Why do you think they will accept a market adjustment now?  

 

 

It's not only Vietnam is offering a better value for money holiday for tourists, it's also Thailand is doing nothing new to compete with Vietnam.  

 

For how long does Thailand think the tourists will just keep coming, because Thailand is Thailand? 

 

 

Meanwhile, apparently a poorer country, is building record breaking tourist infrastructure and attractions, whilst Thailand can't even have an even sidewalk.   

 

Once again, how does Thailand hope to compete in the future?  

 

 

If there was a futures market on Thai tourism and Vietnam tourism, which one would you put your money on?

     Tourists in normal times will keep coming in healthy numbers, as they did in 2019, because, as you say, 'Thailand is Thailand'.  They were coming in record numbers to see Thailand, and not just a tourist attraction a country has built.  Not that there's anything wrong with building a tourist attraction.  But, Vietnam building a tourist attraction is not going to stop people from wanting to visit and see Thailand.  France has Disneyland Paris.  I still want to visit and see Spain.  

     Vietnam apparently had a big increase in tourists in 2019.  That didn't stop record numbers from visiting Thailand that same year--nearly 40 million.  In normal times, there are enough tourists to go around.  Both countries are fortunate to be sitting close to large population countries a short plane ride away--with many citizens who did not have the means to travel until now.  Not to mention a number of other Asian countries with citizens now having enough money to take a trip somewhere.  Over 4 million tourists from Malaysia visited Thailand in 2019, for example.  That's more than from the UK, Germany, France, and the US combined.   If we ever get back to some semblance of normal both countries should be able to count on a steady stream of Asian tourists, and others.  

[sandyf]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:08 PM, Swimfan said:

Probably a country that relies on it for a significant portion of its GDP. 

And to the narrow minded that 12% of GDP can only come from foreign tourists.

Bojo is claiming innovation will rebuild the UK economy, but to the anti Thai malcontents on this forum, not an option for Thailand.

[sandyf]

On 10/11/2021 at 10:28 PM, DaLa said:

I'm sorry to hear that; however, coming from the 4th largest city in the UK that lost 20% of its workforce's business and income. They will have to deal with it.   Airports are aggressively engaged and  preoccupied with money grabbing, and absolutely totally uninterested in the customers experience.  Gatwick airport could fall into the sea for me and I wouldn't shed 1 tear.  PS. Ive used about 100 airports in 40 years of travel and 90%  would fail my 'customer experience' test. Birmingham airport in the UK  just about passes as 'doing what it says on the tin' but is still far from  value for money. We've all been conned  by a succession of governments and restricted  choice in how we use this 'service'.

Gatwick has closed terminal 2 and using terminal 1, but the railway station is in terminal 2.

[Leaver]

12 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

When you leaving for Vietnam if it's so good?

I'm not a tourist, I'm an expat.  

 

I'm in Pattaya for the nightlife, but it's no secret Vietnam in my Plan B.  

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, newnative said:

     Tourists in normal times will keep coming in healthy numbers, as they did in 2019, because, as you say, 'Thailand is Thailand'.  They were coming in record numbers to see Thailand, and not just a tourist attraction a country has built.  Not that there's anything wrong with building a tourist attraction.  But, Vietnam building a tourist attraction is not going to stop people from wanting to visit and see Thailand.  France has Disneyland Paris.  I still want to visit and see Spain.  

     Vietnam apparently had a big increase in tourists in 2019.  That didn't stop record numbers from visiting Thailand that same year--nearly 40 million.  In normal times, there are enough tourists to go around.  Both countries are fortunate to be sitting close to large population countries a short plane ride away--with many citizens who did not have the means to travel until now.  Not to mention a number of other Asian countries with citizens now having enough money to take a trip somewhere.  Over 4 million tourists from Malaysia visited Thailand in 2019, for example.  That's more than from the UK, Germany, France, and the US combined.   If we ever get back to some semblance of normal both countries should be able to count on a steady stream of Asian tourists, and others.  

 

I was thinking more about 5 to 10 years, post covid.  

 

Vietnam has been building it bigger and better.  What's Thailand been doing?  

[tomyami]

As has happened here in spain costs have soared on opening accommodation and flights where demand is more than supply same will happen in thailand

Many hotels and condos wont come back to the market especially older ones.

When some girls return they will be carry a mountain of family debt and where there are few they will charge a lot more 

[HashBrownHarry]

48 minutes ago, Leaver said:

I'm not a tourist, I'm an expat.  

 

I'm in Pattaya for the nightlife, but it's no secret Vietnam in my Plan B.  

You could be an expat in VN.

 

bi bi.

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You could be an expat in VN.

 

bi bi.

 

When Pattaya / Thailand reaches its used by date for me, or there's a change in government policy which adds ridiculous hoops to keep staying here, or Pattaya becomes China Town, I'll jump.

 

Until then, I like living in Pattaya, and look forward to seeing the nightlife return.

[HashBrownHarry]

59 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

When Pattaya / Thailand reaches its used by date for me, or there's a change in government policy which adds ridiculous hoops to keep staying here, or Pattaya becomes China Town, I'll jump.

 

Until then, I like living in Pattaya, and look forward to seeing the nightlife return.

How do the government policies have any effect on your day to day life?

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I was thinking more about 5 to 10 years, post covid.  

 

Vietnam has been building it bigger and better.  What's Thailand been doing?  

     You're missing my point.  If someone wants to visit Thailand, they will.  If they don't, they won't.  Nearly 40 million wanted to in 2019.  Someone visiting Thailand has little to do with what Vietnam is 'building'.  I want to visit Spain--and my decision has nothing to do with France next door possibly building something 'bigger and better.'   As I said in my post, there are enough potential tourists for both Thailand and Vietnam.  

    One thing Thailand has been doing is building an excellent road system.  I'm always impressed when we drive to CM and I was equally impressed with the highways when we drove to Phuket and other points in the south.  And, to other areas as well.   As an American, the last time I was in the US I was totally unimpressed with the roads--no wonder they are trying to pass a desperately needed infrastructure bill.

[Leaver]

49 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

How do the government policies have any effect on your day to day life?

 

Visas is the main one.  Hoops to jump through etc.

 

Maybe making Pattaya / Thailand a family holiday destination, thus no adult nightlife in the future.  

 

Protests, violence, civil war etc, leading to martial law or similar.  

 

I am well aware that as a farang I do not have a "right" to live here.  At any point in time the Thai government wants farang out of Thailand, they can do it, either slowly, or over 12 months.

[Leaver]

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

     You're missing my point.  If someone wants to visit Thailand, they will.  If they don't, they won't.  Nearly 40 million wanted to in 2019.  Someone visiting Thailand has little to do with what Vietnam is 'building'.  I want to visit Spain--and my decision has nothing to do with France next door possibly building something 'bigger and better.'   As I said in my post, there are enough potential tourists for both Thailand and Vietnam.  

    One thing Thailand has been doing is building an excellent road system.  I'm always impressed when we drive to CM and I was equally impressed with the highways when we drove to Phuket and other points in the south.  And, to other areas as well.   As an American, the last time I was in the US I was totally unimpressed with the roads--no wonder they are trying to pass a desperately needed infrastructure bill.

 

You miss my point, newnative.

 

Picture a young professional couple looking for a 2 week overseas holiday.  Same with mum, dad, and the two kids.  Or, the newly retired couple with time on their hands.  They get on the internet, or go to see a travel agent, and compare facilities, attractions, and value for money.    

 

I won't mention Googling "scams Thailand" or similar, and all the negative reports that may influence their decision.  

 

The above are tourists with real money to spend, not like millions of zero baht Chinese tourists, although I do agree with you, the tourist numbers were up, on the back of cheap Chinese package holiday makers.  

 

5 to 10 years from now, which country do you think will be more attractive to that above western market/s?  

 

As for roads, how many tourists use long distance land transport on a 2 week holiday here?