Back on topic.

There was a stack of bricks in the Tate that would have been put to much better use by building something with them, there was also a dead sheep in a tank of formaldehyde that would have served far better as someone's lunch, or many people's lunches for that matter.

Art these days has as much resemblance to skilfully crafted works as the Eurovision Song Contest does to music.

I saw a brick unload exhibit like that at the old Tate, in front of the poorly painted David Hockney swimming pool painting (lazy wanklette used masking tape to get his line and never retouched the area that the tape stripped off). Waste of spaceola.

My other peeve is the installation art gang. Like what's that, seven piles of bits that looks like my laundry floor when I'm sorting the weekly washing. Or the chick who stayed in bed for how long as a viewing object? FO.

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread but I just had to post this from today's Bangkok Post.

But is it art?

Two women have been hurt by falling into the Tate gallery's latest object of art _ a crack in the floor.

According to the Daily Mail, at 548 feet long, up to three feet deep and 10 inches wide, it zigzags the length of the gallery's Turbine Hall and has been described as a highly original work of art.

But two female visitors to the London gallery had to be rescued after accidentally putting their feet in the crack, one of them thinking it was simply painted on the floor.

The creator is Colombian artist Doris Salcedo who called her work Shibboleth, although it has been quickly nicknamed ''Doris' crack''.

The installation cost about 300,000 (around 19.2 million baht) and it took more than six months to complete.

The crack is said to represent the division problem of integrating immigrants into European society.

A builder commented that if he had been responsible for the crack he would be sued for health and safety breaches.

I just love the nick.

If the Art belonged to me and was worth a few million then, no chance, i'm not destroying that.

But if i could destroy someone elses Art, to save my soul..........no problemo

I am always surprised by peoples outrage and aggressive attitude towards contemporary art. I dont think its merely financial implications either..for if something is not considered 'real' art (whatever nonsense that implies. i suppose 'real' art means painted on canvas or sketch work or sculptures that are easily readable to the viewer...?)it is attacked or dismissed as rubbish in much the same way. (But of course when a price tag is attached or public money it adds much fuel to the fire).

What does the average public want? Chocolate box art works that are easily interpreted? (or so they think..as even then the layers most often are deeper)? Re-cycled Old Masters? Something that need not tax the brain?

Art should reflect the zeitgeist of the time, have a message, make a statement, create interest and stimulation.

Carl Andre's Equivalent VIII (otherwise known as "The Bricks") was a construction based on mathematics. The old masters also played with mathematics (Golden section, perspective, symmetry, dynamics), but this of course is not visually obvious to the eye not looking for it. Mathematically harmonious images are pleasing on the eye and by the same turn changing that harmony creates discourse and is unsettling to the viewer..although they may not know exactly why. Carl Andre, went back to basics and used humble materials to illustrate this. Plus his "succes de scandale" created such controversy that it generated a huge influx of visitors to the Tate.

Damien Hurst works are in my opinion pure genius. Most of his work is about the cycle of life and death...and if you take time to understand just a few simple notions he is trying to illustrate and put aside your pre-conceived ideals of what 'art' should be, maybe you would appreciate the work more. (And for those who dismiss artists unless they can 'draw realistically' zzz.. Well he can(and is very talented)..as can most artist who study at art school. Drawing /sketch work(such as life-drawing classes) is part of the curriculum for most if not all art courses. But this does NOT make an artist).

i dont mean to be rude but i suppose compare it to someone listening to a classical piano recital. Some people in the audience may be entranced by the music, others who are peers or judges or the like probably listen with more attuned ears and can hear the flaws etc and are not as impressed. Then take a more contemporary piece that has discord and sounds which seem alien and disturbing and unpleasant to the earlier entranced listeners who dismiss it as clanging nonesense..whereas the peers etc are able to enterprate and appreciate what the player is trying to achieve. The attuned ears want to hear something new and dynamic and striking. It is also this kind of experimental work that leads to new masterpieces.

I dont know what happened at the Tate with regards to the crack in the floor, ill read it soon enough. Im surprised that the Tate did not put up warnings. Or most likely they did and these are just two very stupid women. I, like most artists, have come to expect a level of criticism regarding contemporary art works from the uniformed masses and the newspapers (esp pulp ones) are always keen to jump on the bash-modern-art band wagon. Its funny that when my traditional work is viewed by people I am given such gushing comments on how talented i am and that i am a 'real artist'. Yet my installation work and conceptual art is what my peers are most impressed by but its dismissed with a look of disgust from the average viewer. My conceptual art is what i feel most proud of but even if I try to explain when ASKED, most peoples eyes go blank.. they really just dont want to know or accept this as art. Period.

But back on topic: hel_l yeh..destroy art to save my soul..of course i bloody would. You didnt say how much though. Destoy it all..literature..visual art..music..etc? Ok..now that is no easy decision. But burning a couple of PoP Art works (esp Andy Warhole..that would be a pleasure)and some pulp novels (esp some of the Thai ones where farang falls in love with bar girl stories) no ProblemO!

Well put eek! I didn't know you were a fellow artist!?! Are your talents unlimited???

ALL OF IT - WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT!

seconded

Well put eek! I didn't know you were a fellow artist!?! Are your talents unlimited???

BA(Hons)Fine Art (elective in psychology. Dissertation: The Cognitive responses in Art <--or something like that..forget the title now HAHA)

Taught Life Drawing and kids after school art classes/holiday workshops, for around five/six years.

Various exhibitions mainly installation based.

various commissions (mainly traditional based).

Moved into 3d graphics and animation. Worked in London in a post production company dealing with game conversions for various external companies such as Microsoft Xbox.

(Have also studied various other art-based mediums: Photography (diploma), Jewelery (diploma), sculpture (during degree), Bronze casting (however we used lead = cheaper! (during degree)..etc. Plus studied History of Art.)

Now..sitting on my bum mainly contemplating life..under the delusional guise that I am still actually working on 3d projects..plan to get my arse back in gear soon.

But burning a couple of PoP Art works (esp Andy Warhole..that would be a pleasure)and some pulp novels (esp some of the Thai ones where farang falls in love with bar girl stories) no ProblemO!

But PLEASE don't touch my supermarket parking lot "art sale" black velvet paintings....

Well put eek! I didn't know you were a fellow artist!?! Are your talents unlimited???

BA(Hons)Fine Art (elective in psychology. Dissertation: The Cognitive responses in Art <--or something like that..forget the title now HAHA)

Taught Life Drawing and kids after school art classes/holiday workshops, for around five/six years.

Various exhibitions mainly installation based.

various commissions (mainly traditional based).

Moved into 3d graphics and animation. Worked in London in a post production company dealing with game conversions for various external companies such as Microsoft Xbox.

(Have also studied various other art-based mediums: Photography (diploma), Jewelery (diploma), sculpture (during degree), Bronze casting (however we used lead = cheaper! (during degree)..etc. Plus studied History of Art.)

Now..sitting on my bum mainly contemplating life..under the delusional guise that I am still actually working on 3d projects..plan to get my arse back in gear soon.

How very interesting. I only took it to A level, but when moved (inspired) to paint I tend to produce a massive amount of work, my garage is my studio. Then nothing for years on end until the next rush. I have several pieces exhibited and I am very happy to have my own art all over the walls of my house. Gets interesting comments from guests!

Well put eek! I didn't know you were a fellow artist!?! Are your talents unlimited???

BA(Hons)Fine Art (elective in psychology. Dissertation: The Cognitive responses in Art <--or something like that..forget the title now HAHA)

Taught Life Drawing and kids after school art classes/holiday workshops, for around five/six years.

Various exhibitions mainly installation based.

various commissions (mainly traditional based).

Moved into 3d graphics and animation. Worked in London in a post production company dealing with game conversions for various external companies such as Microsoft Xbox.

(Have also studied various other art-based mediums: Photography (diploma), Jewelery (diploma), sculpture (during degree), Bronze casting (however we used lead = cheaper! (during degree)..etc. Plus studied History of Art.)

Now..sitting on my bum mainly contemplating life..under the delusional guise that I am still actually working on 3d projects..plan to get my arse back in gear soon.

How very interesting. I only took it to A level, but when moved (inspired) to paint I tend to produce a massive amount of work, my garage is my studio. Then nothing for years on end until the next rush. I have several pieces exhibited and I am very happy to have my own art all over the walls of my house. Gets interesting comments from guests!

I took mine to a level above "Painting by numbers". I'm now at the advanced level of "joining the dots"

Very funny bj!

How very interesting. I only took it to A level, but when moved (inspired) to paint I tend to produce a massive amount of work, my garage is my studio. Then nothing for years on end until the next rush. I have several pieces exhibited and I am very happy to have my own art all over the walls of my house. Gets interesting comments from guests!

Cool tigs. I know what you mean about inspiration with personal work. Sometimes ebbs and flows. Dormant for a while then sometimes can be pretty prolific. But, remember what jetty suggested about making some kind of record of your work. Even if only for personal record, Im sure one day you will be glad of it.

I took mine to a level above "Painting by numbers". I'm now at the advanced level of "joining the dots"

Well that sounds like progression mrbj! Great stuff!

Anyway..i firmly believe that those who say they cannot draw/paint etc, can. But they need to have passion and dedication ...and a ###### good tutor!

How very interesting. I only took it to A level, but when moved (inspired) to paint I tend to produce a massive amount of work, my garage is my studio. Then nothing for years on end until the next rush. I have several pieces exhibited and I am very happy to have my own art all over the walls of my house. Gets interesting comments from guests!

Cool tigs. I know what you mean about inspiration with personal work. Sometimes ebbs and flows. Dormant for a while then sometimes can be pretty prolific. But, remember what jetty suggested about making some kind of record of your work. Even if only for personal record, Im sure one day you will be glad of it.

I took mine to a level above "Painting by numbers". I'm now at the advanced level of "joining the dots"

Well that sounds like progression mrbj! Great stuff!

Anyway..i firmly believe that those who say they cannot draw/paint etc, can. But they need to have passion and dedication ...and a ###### good tutor!

This is totally true! My wife said to me that she hated art and could never produce what she wanted. I gave her 45 mins instruction and a box of oil pastels and she produced 'still life' that any artist would be proud of! I actually have one of her works in my office and visiting customers often comment on how it must be a 'professional' artist who produced it! Everyone can draw, and with a simple and playful medium like oil pastels, can produce impressive results!

My main problem, apart from the fact I have the artistic talent of a sawn off shotgun, is lack of inspiration. Whether it be writing, drawing or painting I can think of great schemes that instantaneously evaporate once I have a blank sheet in front of me. I'm taking stock of my finances and considering semi retirement at the end of this project and need to start on some creative process to spend my time on rather than drink myself to death. The problem with that is that the end of one project usually coincides with the start of another and the thought process is "right this will definately be the last one".

"and then you find, ten years have got behind you,

no-one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun"

blank white paper is scary PH. The thing is to not be hesitant..or precious about the marks you put down. scribble, experiment, crush up that piece of paper before you draw on it even, just don't sit staring at that white sheet, or expect miracles right away. I often take a sheet of butchers paper and blacken it with charcoal then use a putty rubber in the way you would a pencil or charcoal (working with negative space rather than positive). you can do this with pencil too. Add and remove, remove and add. They say the same process works with writing and music composing too..just get something down..random thoughts..or sounds. Dont try to 'start' a novel or composition, just get those ideas on paper then work out the order later.

Im sure those masterpieces are there just waiting to burst forth!..and in the mean time just go nuts with trail and error!

...and produce some art...

I took mine to a level above "Painting by numbers". I'm now at the advanced level of "joining the dots"

Well that sounds like progression mrbj! Great stuff!

I think next week, i might try tracing paper

I would happily destroy any 'art' I didn't like, and if saving my soul meant saving my life I'd destroy the stuff I liked without hesitation.

At the end of the day humans are creative creatures and will always be able to produce new great works of art anyway.

Yeah but at the end of the day we humans get awfully tired and about the only thing I can produce at the endo of the day is posts on TV or a quick excursion onto u-tube ...who needs art when you've got TV and u-tube?

I don't agree withe the premise, because I'm not sure there is such a thing as a soul, and why would it need saving? If I did agree with the premise I'd be sceptical that destroying beautiful and meaningful things would vreate a good outcome. Supposing I could get past that and I buy the whole premise, I'd destroy all of it to save my soul and I'd do the same for you.

blank white paper is scary PH.

No it isn't.

Standing on a nest of vipers is scary.

Blank paper can be one of three things, daunting, boring or a platform.

Ah, but there can be a fourth, someone creative can make a mark on the paper, maybe in the middle or maybe offset a little bit..... offset would be better as that would provide a good point for the discussion of why ordinary people don't understand art.

Classical art is multi-purpose, it fed the family at the time, it's a historical representation of life and most are truly beautiful.

Modern art serves one purpose, it massages the ego of the artist when the fawners lay claim to understanding the artist (I'm using the term artist loosely) and it's a self perpetuating cycle, there are enough people out there with enough money to spend on total crap to give it longevity ...... ever watched Fashion TV? ..... same thing.

Sorry to burst your bubble Thaddy but much of 'classical' art is a romanticized view of life at the time. A bought and paid for service by the people who had money to pay an artist to churn out their ideal (the Gentry/Higher Classes). At was rarely a free expression or acurate representation or life at the time. Certainly not an acurate historical representation of any sort. Many paintings which so-call represent the workers at work in fields, for example, is known as the "Happy Worker" style paintings. Commissioned by the land owner and painted by a poorly paid artist in this glorified version of reality. Most 'historical' art stinks of repression and corruption and many other negative connotations. But enjoy its purely visual attraction by all means.

If you have a real interest in the History of Art, may I humbly suggest reading History of Art literature. But avoid the average bookshop History of Art books as they are often padded softened versions of art History. Better to read books used by History of Art students as they give a more acurate viewpoint. It will also give you a better understanding of the 'Modern Art' era and todays 'Contemporary/Post Modern Art'.

Also, granted a blank piece of paper is not literally "scary", but i think its obvious what i ment. Excuse me for not using a softer, less dramatic word for my purpose of empathy.

If I can't find a bum gun, I must confess to sometimes leaving my art on blank white sheets of paper.

I'd destroy all of it if I could save my soul, but I don't believe in hel_l so.......

I'll take e. e. cummings position on this one (*you can change the gender to suit your preferences*):

mr youse needn't be so spry

concernin questions arty

each has his tastes but as for i

i likes a certain party

gimme the he-man's solid bliss

youse ideas I'll match youse

a pretty girl who naked is

is worth a million statues

(is 5 [1926]: ONE, XVIII)

NO!! Never!!

Back to the days of the 3rd Reich are we? And their battle against degenerate art. Whats next? Book burning

If you have a real interest in the History of Art, may I humbly suggest reading History of Art literature. But avoid the average bookshop History of Art books as they are often padded softened versions of art History. Better to read books used by History of Art students as they give a more acurate viewpoint. It will also give you a better understanding of the 'Modern Art' era and todays 'Contemporary/Post Modern Art'.

Well it takes all sorts Eek, and variety is life. I took several Art history courses on my way to a Bfa. I found the frist couple were OK, but after that I had to medicate myself just to make it through a class. Mind you, I took some pretty lame classes like Ancient African Art. It was all fertility symbols and booby dolls. Every piece looked like the next to me. I just got tired of hearing all of the intellectual embellishments that were always tagged on to simple and obvious pieces.

As far as destroying art to save my soul? I can't see the connection, but I think if we got rid of the lot we would probably come up with an exciting new batch. We might get away from some of nostagic nonsense and learn how to be original again. Maybe that is a way to save our art-souls at least.

Every piece looked like the next to me. I just got tired of hearing all of the intellectual embellishments

Sounds like you needed courses in art appreciation more than you needed courses in art history.

Every piece looked like the next to me. I just got tired of hearing all of the intellectual embellishments

Sounds like you needed courses in art appreciation more than you needed courses in art history.

Well I was specifically talking of ancient African art when I made that statement. 5 years of art college and uni, graduated with distinction. I think I can aprreciate a thing or two about visual communication. I just don't drink a lot of the kool-aid.