The future is electric: your questions about EVs answered

[Gold Star]

21 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Possibly an apples & oranges comparison since China has 4 times the population of the USA.

Since probably the manufacturing in the world done there, more energy needed.

 

Also consider total energy consumption, with China only use 60% more than the USA

for 4X the population and all that manufacturing being done.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263455/primary-energy-consumption-of-selected-countries/

 

The issue at hand is emissions, not total energy consumption, or per capita consumption. Perhaps this illustrates the China emissions problem much more clearly, and that whatever emmission reduction you do has almost no effect, other than giving yourself a warm fuzzy feeling: 

 

 

[Gold Star]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Your figures are way out of date. For one thing, the cost of coal has zoome up.

The coal price has skyrocketed in 2021 – what does it mean for net zero?

https://theconversation.com/the-coal-price-has-skyrocketed-in-2021-what-does-it-mean-for-net-zero-166117

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

In fact, it's cheaper to replace an existing coal plant with a newly built solar plant. 

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

And of course this makes sense for 2 reasons. The cost of the "fuel" in wind and solar plants is 0.

ANd the cost of of generating solar and wind has dropped precipitously, especially solar.

https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2021/documenting-a-decade-of-cost-declines-for-pv-systems.html

 

And the very fact that the cost of fossil fuels has shot up this year kind of weakens the case for them as an economical way to generate electrical power.

 

I'm very well aware of the current cost of coal, and natural gas. I trade off their prices even as I write this. The current pricing and disruptions in many coal markets have presented nice profitable opportunities for me.  China's shortage has been politically caused, and not as much market driven. Shipping issues have driven pricing up.  Gas shortages are another lively issue, as global LNG infrastructure is not as prevalent and advanced as oil. 

 

Notice the date of the data you reference, that is made in light of the current temporary spike in coal, and not priced in a normal functioning market, as I have stated referencing coal cost. I would not put my money on those figures, as more supply next year will be available as more mines ramp up production all over the world. Improvements in solar technology will be offset by rapidly rising input costs.

 

I am also short China due to the failures of the CCP economic mismanagement, debt collapse risk, supply, housing, aging demographics, supply, material inflation and shortages, semis, domestic demand, shipping, and energy shortages.

 

The mad rush to invest in some renewable ventures are also providing a great shorting opportunity as so much money has flowed so quickly into green but uneconomic enterprises. Like shale oil, investors will someday demand a return on their investment, and many will collapse.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Gold Star said:

I'm very well aware of the current cost of coal, and natural gas. I trade off their prices even as I write this. The current pricing and disruptions in many coal markets have presented nice profitable opportunities for me.  China's shortage has been politically caused, and not as much market driven. Shipping issues have driven pricing up.  Gas shortages are another lively issue, as global LNG infrastructure is not as prevalent and advanced as oil. 

 

Notice the date of the data you reference, that is made in light of the current temporary spike in coal, and not priced in a normal functioning market, as I have stated referencing coal cost. I would not put my money on those figures, as more supply next year will be available as more mines ramp up production all over the world. Improvements in solar technology will be offset by rapidly rising input costs.

 

I am also short China due to the failures of the CCP economic mismanagement, debt collapse risk, supply, housing, aging demographics, supply, material inflation and shortages, semis, domestic demand, shipping, and energy shortages.

 

The mad rush to invest in some renewable ventures are also providing a great shorting opportunity as so much money has flowed so quickly into green but uneconomic enterprises. Like shale oil, investors will someday demand a return on their investment, and many will collapse.

No, the Lazard figures don't differ much from the previous year at all when fossil fuel prices were low.

 https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

[Gold Star]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No, the Lazard figures don't differ much from the previous year at all when fossil fuel prices were low.

 https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

I see I was right about coal, even with the higher prices. See note 5. $42 per MWH. Gas at $24 per MWH. Non carbon capture storage units, same as the ones currently in use Asia, and being built and planned in China. This chart is for in the US, and would be even much lower in countries with low environmental standards, such as China.

 

My point is to make sure you will not be fooled with all the green propaganda, and negative bias towards oil.  Do your own research, think about the future, and invest accordingly.

 

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Gold Star said:

I see I was right about coal, even with the higher prices. See note 5. $42 per MWH. Gas at $24 per MWH. Non carbon capture storage units, same as the ones currently in use Asia, and being built and planned in China. This chart is for in the US, and would be even much lower in countries with low environmental standards, such as China.

 

My point is to make sure you will not be fooled with all the green propaganda, and negative bias towards oil.  Do your own research, think about the future, and invest accordingly.

 

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Those prices you cherry picked are for completely depreciated plants only. 

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, tingtongfarang said:

Most seem to ignore the fact that there are solar vehicles in development that will even charge in defused light, even the one in development at the moment for me would mean it would mostly be fully charged each time i wanted to use it,

Fact is i believe personal owned transport is soon to be a thing of the past, electric self driving people carriers are the future.

So do we kick the can down the road until we see these available for reasonable cost? Everything seems to be 'coming', yet everything we use seems to depend on polluting batteries that get thrown away and have hardly changed in decades. 

[tingtongfarang]

8 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

So do we kick the can down the road until we see these available for reasonable cost? Everything seems to be 'coming', yet everything we use seems to depend on polluting batteries that get thrown away and have hardly changed in decades. 

lots off battery recycling companies already up and running

[jacko45k]

Just now, tingtongfarang said:

lots off battery recycling companies already up and running

Do they take AA and AAA, must be hundreds of thousands of those chucked each month. 

[placeholder]

58 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

So do we kick the can down the road until we see these available for reasonable cost? Everything seems to be 'coming', yet everything we use seems to depend on polluting batteries that get thrown away and have hardly changed in decades. 

Batteries have hardly changed in decades? You sure you want to stick to that position?

[n8sail]

I would hardly call myself an environmentalist, but I have always tried to minimize my impacts.  Only 4 cylinder cars, efficient house, appliances, etc.

 

I thought electric car would be useless here in Thailand, and crazy expensive.

 

Then 6 months ago I met my MG EP.   Less than 1 million baht.   As nice as a Honda City inside...   so, not very, but very functional and at least modern.   NOT a driving computer as a Tesla is, no app, no <deleted> sim cards etc etc.  Just a car.   With a 50kw battery, and real-world 280-300km range here in Thailand. (They claim 380km 5555555)

 

I charge at condo with 3 pin, 3,500watt charger.

 

At work, I just installed the included 7,500 watt charger.   It needs Single Phase, 40amp circuit to run (charger pulls 32 amps @ 220v).   Nothing too special and most newer homes can easily do this.

 

I drive 100-150km per working day (nil on the weekend as I live where I play).   My Ranger 2.2l with manual transmission was costing about 5000 baht/month for fuel.

 

11,000 km and 6 months, the MG is averaging 2,400 per month, and that is with 7 baht/kw electricity at Condo.  Now that I have 2.5baht/kw at work, it will be even cheaper.

 

Did a 2 day road trip from Jomtien to Trat and back.  Charged twice, PEA Volta system.  30 mins for another 200km of driving.  40kw fast DC charge.   Ate lunch each time, would have had to stop anyways even with the truck.   PEA Volta 40kw stations are now open every 100km or less the entire way down Route 3 to the border.

 

Oh, and this road trip cost THREE HUNDRED BAHT!   Would have been 1200 or more in the truck.  That's quite a lot of extra beers  ????

 

So....   do whatever you want, keep blasting nasty black smoke out the back of your diesel, but if you are a cheap charlie, electric REALLY can save you some money.

 

Infrastructure issues are a LONG ways off here.  No one will buy these things.   Meantime, I will continue to enjoy my instant torque, blowing away motocys off of red-lights, and (barely) enjoying that I'm "doing my part"

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

batteries that ... have hardly changed in decades. 

You're obviously way out of touch about batteries.  One thing that has had major changes, over the decades or just last couple years, and why EVs are even marketable now.

 

Batteries were the only thing holding mass production back.  No longer an issue and getting better every month.

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

You're obviously way out of touch about batteries.  One thing that has had major changes, over the decades or just last couple years, and why EVs are even marketable now.

 

Batteries were the only thing holding mass production back.  No longer an issue and getting better every month.

For example:

 

Everything You Need To Know About Tesla’s New 4680 Battery Cell

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-new-4680-battery-cell/

[KhunLA]

Just checked, as I referred to that as 'wave' vs 'blade' battery elsewhere, oops  ????

https://en.byd.com/news/byds-new-blade-battery-set-to-redefine-ev-safety-standards/

The rest of the world is so far behind China ... ????  it's embarrassing.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133955_apple-seeks-lfp-batteries-suppliers-byd-and-catl

Edited November 2, 2021 by KhunLA

[digger70]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

Because the price of sunlight and wind is going up?

No it's the Greed of the people who sell the <deleted>.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, digger70 said:

No it's the Greed of the people who sell the <deleted>.

You're long on attitude and short on facts.

[digger70]

Just now, placeholder said:

You're long on attitude and short on facts.

Short on Facts? look around and see what's happening.Rip of prices for EV's /Buying/maintaining /replacing of components /you wait and see the cost to the public for electricity Will keep on going up.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:18 AM, KhaoYai said:

For many years I've thought, why charge the battery, why not change it?  The Chinese already have a system where you drive into a service station, up on to a ramp, your old battery is taken out (from underneath) and a new one fitted - they are also working on other very similar schemes.  At the moment its taking around 15 minutes to complete the task but no doubt it will get faster.

The current system is the wrong one anyway, IMO. Hydrogen, whether used directly in a combustion engine or fuel cells avoids most of the problems of charging EVs.

It's going to be the same as VHS vs BETAMAX IMO. The inferior system will win because that's where the money is going to be made.

Has anyone in Thai government discussed how they are going to provide the electricity to charge all those cars anyway- more coal fired plants perhaps?

 

To provide a battery change system would require every car manufacturer to have the same battery specifications for every vehicle. Not going to work if the change points have to stock 50 different batteries.

 

[jacko45k]

50 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

You're obviously way out of touch about batteries.

If you read my post I refer to the old style consumable batteries that are still around and still look the same... as does the one in my truck. Better you check on that before commenting.....

The ones in EV's, not too familiar, I only know they are horrendously expensive and heavy and are still holding EV's back. Else there might even be a single one on my street!

Technology like hydrogen cells would likely be a better option. 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by jacko45k

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, n8sail said:

I would hardly call myself an environmentalist, but I have always tried to minimize my impacts.  Only 4 cylinder cars, efficient house, appliances, etc.

 

I thought electric car would be useless here in Thailand, and crazy expensive.

 

Then 6 months ago I met my MG EP.   Less than 1 million baht.   As nice as a Honda City inside...   so, not very, but very functional and at least modern.   NOT a driving computer as a Tesla is, no app, no <deleted> sim cards etc etc.  Just a car.   With a 50kw battery, and real-world 280-300km range here in Thailand. (They claim 380km 5555555)

 

I charge at condo with 3 pin, 3,500watt charger.

 

At work, I just installed the included 7,500 watt charger.   It needs Single Phase, 40amp circuit to run (charger pulls 32 amps @ 220v).   Nothing too special and most newer homes can easily do this.

 

I drive 100-150km per working day (nil on the weekend as I live where I play).   My Ranger 2.2l with manual transmission was costing about 5000 baht/month for fuel.

 

11,000 km and 6 months, the MG is averaging 2,400 per month, and that is with 7 baht/kw electricity at Condo.  Now that I have 2.5baht/kw at work, it will be even cheaper.

 

Did a 2 day road trip from Jomtien to Trat and back.  Charged twice, PEA Volta system.  30 mins for another 200km of driving.  40kw fast DC charge.   Ate lunch each time, would have had to stop anyways even with the truck.   PEA Volta 40kw stations are now open every 100km or less the entire way down Route 3 to the border.

 

Oh, and this road trip cost THREE HUNDRED BAHT!   Would have been 1200 or more in the truck.  That's quite a lot of extra beers  ????

 

So....   do whatever you want, keep blasting nasty black smoke out the back of your diesel, but if you are a cheap charlie, electric REALLY can save you some money.

 

Infrastructure issues are a LONG ways off here.  No one will buy these things.   Meantime, I will continue to enjoy my instant torque, blowing away motocys off of red-lights, and (barely) enjoying that I'm "doing my part"

When I can drive a 7 hour trip with a single 15 minute stop half way I'll be convinced. Whatever, so long as the batteries don't last 30 years, like my current car has, I'm not interested.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Short on Facts? look around and see what's happening.Rip of prices for EV's /Buying/maintaining /replacing of components /you wait and see the cost to the public for electricity Will keep on going up.

Exactly. Try fixing an EV yourself- 55555555555555555. All computerised and computers don't last.

[thaibeachlovers]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Just checked, as I referred to that as 'wave' vs 'blade' battery elsewhere, oops  ????

https://en.byd.com/news/byds-new-blade-battery-set-to-redefine-ev-safety-standards/

The rest of the world is so far behind China ... ????  it's embarrassing.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133955_apple-seeks-lfp-batteries-suppliers-byd-and-catl

I'm happy to be behind China. I'd hate to live under their system.

[n8sail]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

When I can drive a 7 hour trip with a single 15 minute stop half way I'll be convinced. Whatever, so long as the batteries don't last 30 years, like my current car has, I'm not interested.

I have a Ford Ranger to do that if I need.  I've gone 1150km on one tank before being careful.

Electric cars are fun, cheap to maintain and drive, and reserved for people with time and money, and the mental capability for planning and foresight.  Certainly not most Thai people, though I know many who have these qualities.

 

Not designed for retired expats with no disposable income.   I know from other posts that you are not poor,  why not buy a 2nd car that doesn't pollute and is much cheaper and more practical for every day driving?

For me it was no-brainer, my work pays me a car allowance and my truck was paid off.  For most others it makes no sense, so I respect your opinion.

[tingtongfarang]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The current system is the wrong one anyway, IMO. Hydrogen, whether used directly in a combustion engine or fuel cells avoids most of the problems of charging EVs.

It's going to be the same as VHS vs BETAMAX IMO. The inferior system will win because that's where the money is going to be made.

Has anyone in Thai government discussed how they are going to provide the electricity to charge all those cars anyway- more coal fired plants perhaps?

 

To provide a battery change system would require every car manufacturer to have the same battery specifications for every vehicle. Not going to work if the change points have to stock 50 different batteries.

 

Thailand is years away from the normal consumer using BEV vehicles unless cars are on the market with self charging, Until then thais are stuck with ICE or hybrid

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

If you read my post I refer to the old style consumable batteries that are still around and still look the same... as does the one in my truck. Better you check on that before commenting.....

The ones in EV's, not too familiar, I only know they are horrendously expensive and heavy and are still holding EV's back. Else there might even be a single one on my street!

Technology like hydrogen cells would likely be a better option. 

 

I, for one, read your post. Did you? Here it is in full:

"So do we kick the can down the road until we see these available for reasonable cost? Everything seems to be 'coming', yet everything we use seems to depend on polluting batteries that get thrown away and have hardly changed in decades."

What does "everything" mean to you?

[placeholder]

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Exactly. Try fixing an EV yourself- 55555555555555555. All computerised and computers don't last.

You should definitely get in touch with EV manufacturers and tell them "computers don't last". We can be sure that these engineers won't laugh at your advice because they know nothing about this:

Rugged computer

A rugged, or ruggedized computer is a computer specifically designed to operate reliably in harsh usage environments and conditions, such as strong vibrations, extreme temperatures and wet or dusty conditions.^[1] They are designed from inception for the type of rough use typified by these conditions, not just in the external housing but in the internal components and cooling arrangements as well.^[2]

Typical environments for rugged laptops, tablet PCs and PDAs are public safety, field sales, field service, manufacturing, retail, healthcare, construction, transportation/distribution^[3] and the military. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_computer

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by placeholder

[Gold Star]

In the stampede to transform into a renewable energy system and replace fossil fuels to save the planet, it is simply not working as well as we have been led to believe. There are consequences, and renewable systems are full of holes. From wind farms, to solar, to hydrogen, you must dig deeper to learn the surprising truth.

This is an excellent must watch documentary that everyone should see:

 

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Exactly. Try fixing an EV yourself- 55555555555555555. All computerised and computers don't last.

News flash, basically only 2 main components are different, EV vs ICE.  Energy to power, and E motor vs ICE motor, which I wouldn't be tearing either down to fix.  Which I have (ICEs) in the past.

 

Also wouldn't be messing with the computer components of either model, and yes, that ICE has almost as many, minus the BMS controller.

[n8sail]

The only real solution to our pollution problem is less consumption per capita.

 

Less population would also work in this regards.

 

I vote we start the population reduction with Loong Tuu and Anutin and all their friends!   ????????

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Gold Star said:

In the stampede to transform into a renewable energy system and replace fossil fuels to save the planet, it is simply not working as well as we have been led to believe. There are consequences, and renewable systems are full of holes. From wind farms, to solar, to hydrogen, you must dig deeper to learn the surprising truth.

This is an excellent must watch documentary that everyone should see:

 

Michael Moore produced a film about climate change that’s a gift to Big Oil
Planet of the Humans deceives viewers about clean energy and climate activists.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/28/21238597/michael-moore-planet-of-the-humans-climate-change

 

Michael Moore’s ‘Planet of the Humans’ documentary peddles dangerous climate denial
The YouTube film offers outdated and wildly misleading information on renewable energy, sacrificing progress in pursuit of unachievable perfection.

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2020/05/michael-moores-planet-of-the-humans-documentary-peddles-dangerous-climate-denial/

 

Fact Check: Planet of the Humans Gets It Fundamentally Wrong on Renewable Energy

https://acore.org/fact-check-planet-of-the-humans-gets-it-fundamentally-wrong-on-renewable-energy/

[placeholder]

 

53 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Exactly. Try fixing an EV yourself- 55555555555555555. All computerised and computers don't last.

As for computers in Internal Combustion Engine vehicles:

 

How cars have become rolling computers

The average car today can have between 25 and 50 central processing units (CPUs) controlling these functions and more, often networked but sometimes operating independently. The level of sophistication is likely to rise as self-driving vehicles move closer to mass production.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/how-cars-have-become-rolling-computers/article29008154/

 

And this article was published over 5 years ago. 

 

And finally I will conclude with a quote from you:

55555555555555555

Edited November 2, 2021 by placeholder