Why does it seem that so many people here are working class?

[Encore]

I suggest that, in a bye-gone era, an expensive private education, upbringing and elite social circle, all requiring money and contacts, indicated that you were upper class with no need to work whereas grammar school business people, with a regular income were considered middle class while uneducated and unskilled labourers were considered as working class. 

 

In the modern era, anyone can break so called 'class barriers' if they wish, depending on their attitude, behaviour, decorum, social graces and style, irrespective of background or money, and this indicates how people are perceived and, therefore, their social status. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Not trying to devolve into bickering, but if there's a lie in my post you're free to point it out ????

I assume you believe it, so I would not call it a lie, but the following is certainly not true: 

 

"...but with a sample size as large as this forum it's pretty easy nail down the profile of a 'typical' member." 

[Yellowtail]

Sorry 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Yellowtail
delete

[Yellowtail]

Sorry 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Yellowtail
delete

[The Cipher]

25 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I assume you believe it, so I would not call it a lie, but the following is certainly not true: 

 

"...but with a sample size as large as this forum it's pretty easy nail down the profile of a 'typical' member." 

Well which part of the characterization that I laid out would be false then?

 

I apologize, because I'm not trying to be difficult or to single you out in particular, but from time to time I make some unpopular posts (posting truths that are probably better left unsaid is a personal failing of mine). And folks are quick to accuse me of being wrong, but when I press them on exactly what I'm wrong about they conspicuously vanish.

 

But from my perspective, I see spade -> I say "that's a spade!" And it's totally fine if people don't appreciate these posts, but I would prefer that respondents at least have the intellectual honesty to say "I am emotionally upset by what you've written" or "There was no need to broach this uncomfortable truth. You're a jerk, Cipher."

Perhaps more importantly if readers don't want to be so easily lumped into certain categories...well, I would encourage them to do something to change their situation. Everybody wants to feel important/special, but so few actually put in the work. Man, there's no shortcut for most of us - and that includes me. Put in the work. It's worth it.

 

Again, sorry Yellowtail. This screed wasn't directed at you in particular. I had to reply to someone and you just happened to be it.

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Well which part of the characterization that I laid out would be false then?

 

 

 

I apologize, because I'm not trying to be difficult or to single you out in particular, but from time to time I make some unpopular posts (posting truths that are probably better left unsaid is a personal failing of mine). And folks are quick to accuse me of being wrong, but when I press them on exactly what I'm wrong about they conspicuously vanish.

 

 

 

But from my perspective, I see spade -> I say "that's a spade!" And it's totally fine if people don't appreciate these posts, but I would prefer that respondents at least have the intellectual honesty to say "I am emotionally upset by what you've written" or "There was no need to broach this uncomfortable truth. You're a jerk, Cipher."

 

 

Perhaps more importantly if readers don't want to be so easily lumped into certain categories...well, I would encourage them to do something to change their situation. Everybody wants to feel important/special, but so few actually put in the work. Man, there's no shortcut for most of us - and that includes me. Put in the work. It's worth it.

 

Again, sorry Yellowtail. This screed wasn't directed at you in particular. I had to reply to someone and you just happened to be it.

No need to apologize, I have skin like a rhino's a**.  It's sticks and stones where I come from.

 

In any event, you're not being difficult, but you seem to fancy yourself some sort of sage truth-teller,  but all you are doing is making broad generalizations about a large group, based on your own limited exposure to a tiny sample.

 

That's why I would not call you a liar, I'm sure you believe the generalization you make are true. 

[BritManToo]

14 hours ago, The Cipher said:

The characteristics that I listed were those that stood out most jarringly to me compared to other older people that I interact with on/offline. However the chances that I live in a bubble are high, so it's possible that more of the world is like this than I appreciate.

Most older men you meet in person are a little more restrained than they are online.

We've nearly all learned to keep our thoughts to ourselves.

Different in anonymous forums.

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Well which part of the characterization that I laid out would be false then?

Not false, but almost every persons net worth is less than $1M.

Why would posters on this forum be any different?

It's like saying 'water is wet'.

 

What is more unusual about this forums members is we nearly all have a regular income which is enough to live on without having to work. In some ways we forum members are far more privileged than the majority of people in the world.

Edited December 22, 2021 by BritManToo

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

have a regular income which is enough to live on without having to work. In some ways we forum members are far more privileged than the majority of people in the world.

Yes, having enough or even a bit more, or a lot more than needed, if so fortunate, is quite nice.  Stress free.  Never understood the desire to keep earning after you reach a certain point vs not needing to work.

 

Only thing I wanted to be after joining the 'working class heroes' was retired.

[The Cipher]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Most older men you meet in person are a little more restrained than they are online.

We've nearly all learned to keep our thoughts to ourselves.

Different in anonymous forums.

To some degree sure. I write a lot of things in this space that I would probably not say unprompted if you met me in person. But quality of thought is evident regardless of anonymity.

 

The internet has anon personalities/communities where post and discourse quality is significantly higher than AseanNow. My comment was not regarding seniors specifically, but rather the members of this particular community who just happen to also be seniors (generally).

 

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

What is more unusual about this forums members is we nearly all have a regular income which is enough to live on without having to work. In some ways we forum members are far more privileged than the majority of people in the world.

I think that the members of this forum are remarkably privileged from a global perspective. You guys (Boomers from Western countries) are the beneficiaries of an intersection of different positive factors.

 

You guys got to play the game on easy mode compared to subsequent generations. And even now tend to be the beneficiaries of policy choices just due to power at the polls.

 

But the game's different now, and part of what I find so fascinating/frustrating about this place is watching AN members as they try and make sense of this new world that they find themselves living in. And admittedly it's a challenging place to navigate successfully for any of us, including me.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

19 hours ago, HappyExpat57 said:

I've often said really wealthy people don't retire in Thailand. Too many better places if you have the money. Thailand is just that much more inexpensive.

Indeed. I didn't come here because I was rich, quite the opposite. I came here for the low cost of living, escaping the high cost of where I had been. It then offered additional benefits such beautiful places to explore, and less difficult women.

 

If I were rich there's many places I could've stayed in the States, enjoying better amenities, infrastructure, and no cultural and language barriers. Or I could've gone to Europe to get such things. It's why the Thais' dreams of "high quality, well heeled tourists" are so ridiculous.

 

15 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I do know a Thai couple that live in a 100MBht teak house and large grounds. And it's not their only house ..........

 

Both of them totally miserable 24/7.

As a young man I spent a year delivering furniture, carrying it through McMansion palaces, then spending a few hours setting it up. Throughout these periods I overheard such tales of woe, stress, failing careers and relationships. Having all that <deleted>, the illusion of a good life around them, certainly didn't do them any favors. It was then I vowed never to aspire to such.

[BritManToo]

56 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

But the game's different now, and part of what I find so fascinating/frustrating about this place is watching AN members as they try and make sense of this new world that they find themselves living in. And admittedly it's a challenging place to navigate successfully for any of us, including me.

The answer is not to interact with the rest of the world ........ that much.

It helps being in Thailand and living on a Thai estate, nobody expects to chat with me.

[Yellowtail]

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

To some degree sure. I write a lot of things in this space that I would probably not say unprompted if you met me in person. But quality of thought is evident regardless of anonymity.

Or lack thereof.  (I'm not taking about you)

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

The internet has anon personalities/communities where post and discourse quality is significantly higher than AseanNow.

Clearly

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

My comment was not regarding seniors specifically, but rather the members of this particular community who just happen to also be seniors (generally).

What comment? You made a number of comments based on what amount s to nothing more than your own guesses. 

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

I think that the members of this forum are remarkably privileged from a global perspective.

I assume many members are, but don't doubt many are not. I feel that I'm incredibly fortunate from any perspective.

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

You guys (Boomers from Western countries) are the beneficiaries of an intersection of different positive factors.

 

You guys got to play the game on easy mode compared to subsequent generations. And even now tend to be the beneficiaries of policy choices just due to power at the polls.

Please explain the "easy mode".

 

When I graduated high school in the US: 

Unemployment was over 9%

Inflation was over 12%

The interest rate was over 8% 

We had lost almost 60,000 (mostly kids) in Vietnam

I went to work for $1.65 an hour at a machine shop. 

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

But the game's different now...

How is the game different?

 

30 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

...and part of what I find so fascinating/frustrating about this place is watching AN members as they try and make sense of this new world that they find themselves living in. And admittedly it's a challenging place to navigate successfully for any of us, including me.

The world does not seem new to me, nor I have any difficulty making sense of it.

 

What do find so challenging about navigating the world successfully? Seems easy enough to me. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Indeed. I didn't come here because I was rich, quite the opposite. I came here for the low cost of living, escaping the high cost of where I had been. It then offered additional benefits such beautiful places to explore, and less difficult women.

 

If I were rich there's many places I could've stayed in the States, enjoying better amenities, infrastructure, and no cultural and language barriers. Or I could've gone to Europe to get such things. It's why the Thais' dreams of "high quality, well heeled tourists" are so ridiculous.

 

As a young man I spent a year delivering furniture, carrying it through McMansion palaces, then spending a few hours setting it up. Throughout these periods I overheard such tales of woe, stress, failing careers and relationships. Having all that <deleted>, the illusion of a good life around them, certainly didn't do them any favors. It was then I vowed never to aspire to such.

Money does not necessarily make people happy, but it absolutely makes life easier. That said, guys that scrape by working forty-plus hours a week on their feet, aren't going out to protest white-privilege.,,

[The Cipher]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

You made a number of comments based on what amount s to nothing more than your own guesses. 

Not exactly. When you read something that someone writes, that tells you something about the writer, right? Do that enough and with a large enough sample, and you glean enough information to reason out some (probably) pretty reliable conclusions.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Please explain the "easy mode".

Without going into a ton of detail and examining Western societies only, Boomers tended to have a significantly easier path to stability than later generations. You can't look at contextless numbers when it comes to stuff like wages. You'd need to look at that stuff relative to cost of living and, more importantly, cost of assets.

 

Most relevant would be stuff like median income to house prices, and how many units of the S&P 500 you could buy with a median paycheque. Those ratios standardize differences in values over time, because your purchasing power is always relative to the cost of goods/assets. You can do a quick Google search to see that key metrics of affordability have declined from the period of your youth to mine.

 

Basically any career you chose (even out of high school! because u didn't need post-secondary edu for decent employment as a Boomer if you didn't want it) provided an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people. Can you say that now?

 

We could then move on to the topic of gov pensions, which my generation may or may not enjoy (hard to say how UBI schemes will evolve), or defined benefit pensions, which basically didn't even exist by the time I entered the workforce. And personally, I think relying on a pension for retirement is a suckers game. But the reality is the most people in every generation need some form of basic income for survival because their savings won't cut it.

 

This space also probably deserves a mention on the political privilege that you enjoyed as the largest generational voting bloc for decades. Policies, in general, tend to be favorable to your demographic.

 

And this isn't even me being bitter. It's just facts. I'm aware that most of you faced individual struggles. Everyone does. But as a generalization between generations, it doe very much seem to have been easier to hit stability in the past than now.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

How is the game different? The world does not seem new to me, nor I have any difficulty making sense of it.

 

What do find so challenging about navigating the world successfully? Seems easy enough to me. 

If you don't think the game's changed, I would suggest that maybe you're not aware of the nature of the game you're in. Hint: It's self-actualization -> real freedom -> legacy. (Further, retirement ≠ actual freedom for many people).

 

Just a singular event - Covid 19 - has changed a ton of stuff. For instance I'm a lot less office-bound than I used to be and can now work remotely. Which frees me up to live in places like Bangkok for part of the year.

 

Since 2000 we've gone through - and are looking at further - paradigm shifts in broad policy stances, geopolitics, central banking/finance, and culture. Compounding all of this is the impact of technology on all of those trends, which is advancing/changing the world faster than it ever has.

 

So whether your goal is to win and achieve something, or even just to live a stable relatively stress-free life, it feels increasingly more challenging to confidently chart a path than perhaps it ever has.

Edited December 22, 2021 by The Cipher
Fixed a wonky patch of font.

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Basically any career you chose (even out of high school! because u didn't need post-secondary edu for decent employment as a Boomer if you didn't want it) provided an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people. Can you say that now?

 

This space also probably deserves a mention on the political privilege that you enjoyed as the largest generational voting bloc for decades. Policies, in general, tend to be favorable to your demographic.

Would point out most boomers didn't have access to higher education.

I encounter very few people in their 60s with a degree (none in Thailand).

That was only for the modern generation 1990-2000s+

 

I only ever voted twice in my life.

After Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party folded, I never saw any candidate worthy of my vote.

Edited December 22, 2021 by BritManToo

[RocketDog]

On 12/19/2021 at 4:16 PM, Tippaporn said:

Where's the option for "None."  I'm classless.

Well, if it wasn't for low class I wouldn't have any at all.

[RocketDog]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Not exactly. When you read something that someone writes, that tells you something about the writer, right? Do that enough and with a large enough sample, and you glean enough information to reason out some (probably) pretty reliable conclusions.

 

Without going into a ton of detail and examining Western societies only, Boomers tended to have a significantly easier path to stability than later generations. You can't look at contextless numbers when it comes to stuff like wages. You'd need to look at that stuff relative to cost of living and, more importantly, cost of assets.

 

Most relevant would be stuff like median income to house prices, and how many units of the S&P 500 you could buy with a median paycheque. Those ratios standardize differences in values over time, because your purchasing power is always relative to the cost of goods/assets. You can do a quick Google search to see that key metrics of affordability have declined from the period of your youth to mine.

 

Basically any career you chose (even out of high school! because u didn't need post-secondary edu for decent employment as a Boomer if you didn't want it) provided an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people. Can you say that now?

 

We could then move on to the topic of gov pensions, which my generation may or may not enjoy (hard to say how UBI schemes will evolve), or defined benefit pensions, which basically didn't even exist by the time I entered the workforce. And personally, I think relying on a pension for retirement is a suckers game. But the reality is the most people in every generation need some form of basic income for survival because their savings won't cut it.

 

This space also probably deserves a mention on the political privilege that you enjoyed as the largest generational voting bloc for decades. Policies, in general, tend to be favorable to your demographic.

 

And this isn't even me being bitter. It's just facts. I'm aware that most of you faced individual struggles. Everyone does. But as a generalization between generations, it doe very much seem to have been easier to hit stability in the past than now.

 

If you don't think the game's changed, I would suggest that maybe you're not aware of the nature of the game you're in. Hint: It's self-actualization -> real freedom -> legacy. (Further, retirement ≠ actual freedom for many people).

 

Just a singular event - Covid 19 - has changed a ton of stuff. For instance I'm a lot less office-bound than I used to be and can now work remotely. Which frees me up to live in places like Bangkok for part of the year.

 

Since 2000 we've gone through - and are looking at further - paradigm shifts in broad policy stances, geopolitics, central banking/finance, and culture. Compounding all of this is the impact of technology on all of those trends, which is advancing/changing the world faster than it ever has.

 

So whether your goal is to win and achieve something, or even just to live a stable relatively stress-free life, it feels increasingly more challenging to confidently chart a path than perhaps it ever has.

Definitely. Anybody who doesn't see how much and how rapidly every facet of human life has and is changing is simply not paying attention.

Even the very poorest on this planet feel the impact.

 

I suppose one can deny it but they cannot escape it. That said, I'm here now creating a comfortable bubble for myself in just such an attempt. With a reasonable amount of money it can be done for the 15-20 years I have left.  Frankly I'm glad that's all I have.

 

Beyond that it will take larger sums to build and maintain a comfortable bubble against the winds (blizzards?) of change.

[sharksy]

On 12/19/2021 at 10:44 PM, robblok said:

Not sure what he even means with working class.

 

I mean there is a huge difference between someone who works as an constructor(earning a wage) and someone who owns a construction company (in knowledge levels)

Or a person who works in an high paying IT job or someone who stacks shelves (intelligence wise in general that is)

I was bought up in working class household (I think!).  Although my parent were buying the house in a reasonable area, my dad was a mechanic and mum a solderer in a factory.

I particularly remember using newspaper for the toilet, toilet rolls were considered an unnecessary luxury.  Not by any visitors to the house mind!!

 

My mum worshipped money, but splashed out very occasionally on something expensive that she would cherish (I remember G-Plan Furniture being her brand of choice) and she constantly rememinded the household to look after it.

 

I was pretty much the dunce at school, not particulary stupid, but not particularly bright either.  Possibly ADSD.

Got into computers (none at my poor standard school) and eventually made it as a high paying IT specialist.

Purchased lots of property to rent out, and that's now my job.

 

Still consider myself working class, most people I meet, I end up looking up to them intellectually, even though I have probably outdone them in "wealth".  And they think I must be really clever to have bought all this property, which to be honest, almost anyone could have done, but just chose not to.

 

[Yellowtail]

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Not exactly.

Yes exactly.

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

When you read something that someone writes, that tells you something about the writer, right? Do that enough and with a large enough sample, and you glean enough information to reason out some (probably) pretty reliable conclusions.

About the people that stood out to you sure, but the size of the sample makes no difference if the sample is not diverse. The idea that you've read and kept track of a diverse enough sample is ridiculous.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Without going into a ton of detail and examining Western societies only, Boomers tended to have a significantly easier path to stability than later generations. You can't look at contextless numbers when it comes to stuff like wages. You'd need to look at that stuff relative to cost of living and, more importantly, cost of assets.

What is "contextless" about the rates of unemployment, interest and inflation?

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Most relevant would be stuff like median income to house prices, and how many units of the S&P 500 you could buy with a median paycheque. Those ratios standardize differences in values over time, because your purchasing power is always relative to the cost of goods/assets. You can do a quick Google search to see that key metrics of affordability have declined from the period of your youth to mine.

Well, I won't speak to countries other than the US, but home ownership rates in the US are about the same as they were 50 years ago. Rather than comparing median incomes to house prices, why not compare what percentage of household income goes to paying for the house? Would that not be a more accurate comparison?

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Basically any career you chose (even out of high school! because u didn't need post-secondary edu for decent employment as a Boomer if you didn't want it) provided an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people. Can you say that now?

You mean like steel & textile workers, electronic assemblers and what not? 

 

Sure, if you went to work for the post office in 1950, you could work there until you retired, but you can do that today as well. 

 

I lot of silly people getting generally useless degrees. 

 

In any event, yes, I can say that basically any career you chose will provide an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people.

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

We could then move on to the topic of gov pensions, which my generation may or may not enjoy (hard to say how UBI schemes will evolve), or defined benefit pensions, which basically didn't even exist by the time I entered the workforce. And personally, I think relying on a pension for retirement is a suckers game. But the reality is the most people in every generation need some form of basic income for survival because their savings won't cut it.

You're right, it's a suckers game, they should be eliminated and people should learn to save their money. But we don't do that, we incentivize people to spend all their money and get on the public teat as soon as they can. 

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

This space also probably deserves a mention on the political privilege that you enjoyed as the largest generational voting bloc for decades. Policies, in general, tend to be favorable to your demographic.

It's easy to speak in generalities, but please explain one of the many political privilege's I have enjoyed that was not, or is not available to everyone.

 

What policies tend to be favorable to my demographic that do not favor yours? Or anyone's for that matter?

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

And this isn't even me being bitter. It's just facts. I'm aware that most of you faced individual struggles. Everyone does. But as a generalization between generations, it doe very much seem to have been easier to hit stability in the past than now.

Well it sure sounds bitter, and I'm not seeing the facts. What does "hit stability" even mean?

 

Poor dude, sitting in an air-conditioned office moaning about how hard he has it, and going on about how easy it was for me/us working in the sun or in some hot factory on my/our feet for 8-12 hours a day...

 

Yeah, it really sounds like it's me/us that has "strongly external locus of control" 

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

If you don't think the game's changed, I would suggest that maybe you're not aware of the nature of the game you're in. Hint: It's self-actualization -> real freedom -> legacy. (Further, retirement ≠ actual freedom for many people).

Why not just explain how the game is different? 

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Just a singular event - Covid 19 - has changed a ton of stuff. For instance I'm a lot less office-bound than I used to be and can now work remotely. Which frees me up to live in places like Bangkok for part of the year.

It was not the singular event but rather the response to it that changed a lot of stuff. Which of those responses did you not support? 

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Since 2000 we've gone through - and are looking at further - paradigm shifts in broad policy stances, geopolitics, central banking/finance, and culture. Compounding all of this is the impact of technology on all of those trends, which is advancing/changing the world faster than it ever has.

So is this good or bad? Be specific about a few things. There is nothing new about things changing. And the world is not "advancing/changing" faster than it ever has. Some things are, some things aren't

 

23 hours ago, The Cipher said:

So whether your goal is to win and achieve something, or even just to live a stable relatively stress-free life, it feels increasingly more challenging to confidently chart a path than perhaps it ever has.

What is more stressful or challenging about life today than than it was 50, 100 or 200 years ago? 

 

Things today seem much easier and less stressful to me then they ever have. 

 

 

[DJ54]

OP the topic could of caused firey fingers.., but as the thread grows yourself and others have interesting feedback. 

 

Im in my late 60s and would not want to be a youngster trying to survive with difficulties they face. 

 

Two children in in barely early 40s one with Bachelors  and other Master degrees... one is a Manager at Walmart ( $95,000) and other a teacher at foundation for children brought up under difficult conditions gangs etc. .. He loves it and said it’s his dream job.. he’s working on Doctorate... 

Both paid for their education... 

 

Thanks for everyone’s comments... 

[rickudon]

All depend on how you conceive class. It was easier to define 50 years ago. Back then, in the UK, The Upper class owned lots of stuff (land, buildings, shares, companies) and often didn't need to work, although some did. Middle class people might own a business or worked in an office, and usually owned there homes. The working class worked for people in farms, shops, factories and services and typically rented their homes.

 

Using such a definition my parents and self were lower middle class - never really rich. Education wise working people usually left school at 15-16, Middle class at 18 or some went to University (like me).

 

I will admit that where i live in Thailand most of the expats do not have a university education, and most i think would be sort of working class - though most were successful at there careers and probably earned as much or more than i did. Why so few middle class? Because i think most had comfortable, boring lives and the thought of giving up that retirement cottage in the country and starting out in Thailand was just too scary....

[The Cipher]

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Poor dude, sitting in an air-conditioned office moaning about how hard he has it, and going on about how easy it was for me/us working in the sun or in some hot factory on my/our feet for 8-12 hours a day...

 

Yeah, it really sounds like it's me/us that has "strongly external locus of control" 

 I'm on the fence about whether to respond, because it feels like kinda a lose-lose proposition. Ie, I spend precious time writing a response that will probably be unappreciated in nuance and may make readers feel uncomfortable (and why would I want to cause someone's discomfort for no gain). But I'll quickly humour a reply so it doesn't look like I was unable to respond.

 

First, I'm not here writing pity-me posts. I'm just pointing out observations. I'm a Wall Street investment analyst from a good family and with relatively fortunate genetics. Nobody should feel bad for me.
 

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

About the people that stood out to you sure, but the size of the sample makes no difference if the sample is not diverse. The idea that you've read and kept track of a diverse enough sample is ridiculous.

So the first thing I'll do is illustrate with a simple game of True/False that it's possible to begin to put together a profile of an 'expected value' AseanNow member.

 

T/F: Males on AseanNow are highly overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society such that you would reasonably expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a male.
 

T/F: Persons age 50+ on AseanNow are highly overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society such that you would reasonably expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a person aged 50+.

 

T/F: Whites/people of European descent are overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society and even more specifically, relative to their proportion of Thailand's non-Burmese/Cambodian foreign population, such that you would expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a white person/person of European descent. Etc.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Sure, if you went to work for the post office in 1950, you could work there until you retired, but you can do that today as well. 

 

I lot of silly people getting generally useless degrees. 

 

In any event, yes, I can say that basically any career you chose will provide an immediate path to reliable stability for financially responsible people.

So my Dad (age 70) has no post secondary education of any kind but had a long career as a software engineer because degrees weren't considered mandatory back when he was entering the workforce. By the time he retired, a masters degree for entry level software engineer at his company had become the expectation. That's years more of school and, for many kids, tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt.

 

Similarly, when my parents bought a house in my hometown of Vancouver they paid approx $300,000 in 1990. 30 years later the house is valued at literally 10x the purchase price. This is a similar story in many 'desirable' global cities. Did wages 10x between 1990 and 2020?

 

According to Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED), median individual income in the US in 2020 was approx $36,000. Even if we pretend that it's $50,000 for giggles, how are you surviving on that? Let alone managing to save a meaningful amount for retirement?

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Well it sure sounds bitter, and I'm not seeing the facts. What does "hit stability" even mean?

Which brings me to this point that a large number of people in the (developed) world are living in a state that could reasonably be defined as economic precarity. "Hit stability" in this case would be to achieve a comfortable and stable middle class life. (You know, responsibly attaining house with a white picket fence, two kids, and a car.  Maybe a dog.)

 

This divide tends be (although not solely) intergenerational, with younger generations amassing less wealth despite more education than older generations. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my butt here lol. As all of these links indicate, this is a well documented phenomena.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Which of those responses did you not support? 

I supported pretty much none of the responses. I'm incredibly anti-lockdown and anti-restriction. Cost of Covid aversion not remotely worth the benefit. In fact, a period unchecked Covid might actually have been beneficial for society in the long run, but that's a diff discussion.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Why not just explain how the game is different? 

So is this good or bad? Be specific about a few things. There is nothing new about things changing. Some things are, some things aren't

What is more stressful or challenging about life today than than it was 50, 100 or 200 years ago? 

I mean, perhaps a more relevant question would be: how is the game not different?

 

The world has always changed. But the rate of change now is unprecedented. Because of my job, investments, and just general curiosity, I monitor the pulse of the world on a pretty ongoing basis (seriously, the amount of data that crosses my path on a daily basis would probably sound unbelievable to most people here). And despite being constantly plugged into changes, I find it more difficult than ever to keep on top of changes and, more importantly for what I do, to try and determine the trajectory of the future.

 

The rate of obsolescence and speed of tech/skill adoption to remain within some reasonable proximity of the competitive frontier is nuts. And the consequences of being left behind are increasingly big (gains concentrate at the top while middle is hollowed out).

 

During your youth you could be reasonably sure that the time investment to learn some skill would be usable for decades. This was true for most of human history. Now? I'm not sure that anything I put my time into learning/building won't be done better by ML algos within 5-10 years.

 

Is this good or bad? I don't know. I don't think that question matters. It just is. There's no point worrying about stuff you can't control. Figuring out how to handle your business in the shifting environment is the game.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

And the world is not "advancing/changing" faster than it ever has.
Things today seem much easier and less stressful to me then they ever have. 

Which brings me to this concluding point. And I want to try and put this delicately because my intention isn't to offend.

 

But I'm genuinely not sure how you can look at the world before/after the internet and globalization and believe that the rate and scale of change is the same.

 

I see people (not necessarily you) say "has nothing changed" from time to time, and I wonder what the confines of their world must be like. Like, yes. It's possible to live out a relatively simple existence. But so much of the world will always remain closed to those people. I can see how checking out might be attractive, but unless self-actualization and genuine freedom have been achieved, I don't think it's the right move.

[VocalNeal]

Oops. Sorry wrong thread. I thought I was replying to the Chang beer thread.????

[Yellowtail]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:03 PM, The Cipher said:

 I'm on the fence about whether to respond, because it feels like kinda a lose-lose proposition. Ie, I spend precious time writing a response that will probably be unappreciated in nuance and may make readers feel uncomfortable (and why would I want to cause someone's discomfort for no gain). But I'll quickly humour a reply so it doesn't look like I was unable to respond.

 

First, I'm not here writing pity-me posts. I'm just pointing out observations. I'm a Wall Street investment analyst from a good family and with relatively fortunate genetics. Nobody should feel bad for me.

I'm sorry, but you do seem to be going on about how easy previous generations had it and how difficult your generation has it, yes?

 

 

Quote

So the first thing I'll do is illustrate with a simple game of True/False that it's possible to begin to put together a profile of an 'expected value' AseanNow member.

 

T/F: Males on AseanNow are highly overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society such that you would reasonably expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a male.
 

T/F: Persons age 50+ on AseanNow are highly overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society such that you would reasonably expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a person aged 50+.

 

T/F: Whites/people of European descent are overrepresented relative to their prevalence in broad society and even more specifically, relative to their proportion of Thailand's non-Burmese/Cambodian foreign population, such that you would expect most posts on AseanNow to be written by a white person/person of European descent. Etc.

Why don't you answer a few questions rather than just asking more? 

 

Quote

So my Dad (age 70) has no post secondary education of any kind but had a long career as a software engineer because degrees weren't considered mandatory back when he was entering the workforce. By the time he retired, a masters degree for entry level software engineer at his company had become the expectation. That's years more of school and, for many kids, tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt.

What company did he retire from?

 

Is there something difficult about getting a degree? So rather than going to work in a hot-a@@ factory after high school, you go to four more years of school. I really think going to school beats laboring. 

 

Quote

Similarly, when my parents bought a house in my hometown of Vancouver they paid approx $300,000 in 1990. 30 years later the house is valued at literally 10x the purchase price. This is a similar story in many 'desirable' global cities. Did wages 10x between 1990 and 2020?

Yeah, and when my father retired his house was worth ten-times what he paid for it, ant it was worth sixty times more when he died. What does that have to do with anything? 

 

As long are we're cherry-picking, why don't you look at how growth in housing prices in Detroit compare to wage growth? 

 

Quote

According to Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED), median individual income in the US in 2020 was approx $36,000. Even if we pretend that it's $50,000 for giggles, how are you surviving on that? Let alone managing to save a meaningful amount for retirement?

Household incomes pay for homes, not individual incomes 

 

Quote

Which brings me to this point that a large number of people in the (developed) world are living in a state that could reasonably be defined as economic precarity. "Hit stability" in this case would be to achieve a comfortable and stable middle class life. (You know, responsibly attaining house with a white picket fence, two kids, and a car.  Maybe a dog.)

Again, the percentage of families that own their own homes is about the same as it was back in the sixties, is this not correct? 

 

What do people generally not have now that people generally did have sixty years ago? 

 

Quote

This divide tends be (although not solely) intergenerational, with younger generations amassing less wealth despite more education than older generations. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my butt here lol. As all of these links indicate, this is a well documented phenomena.

More education? Yes. Better education? No. Why all the newspaper articles, what happened to FRED? As a "...Wall Street investment analyst..." you should be able to do better than that. 

 

Quote

I supported pretty much none of the responses. I'm incredibly anti-lockdown and anti-restriction. Cost of Covid aversion not remotely worth the benefit. In fact, a period unchecked Covid might actually have been beneficial for society in the long run, but that's a diff discussion.

So you don't care about all the people dying? 

 

Quote

I mean, perhaps a more relevant question would be: how is the game not different?

You claim the game is different, I as how, you ask "...how is it not different...", that is not an answer, it's just a dodge. A weak dodge. 

 

Quote

The world has always changed. But the rate of change now is unprecedented. Because of my job, investments, and just general curiosity, I monitor the pulse of the world on a pretty ongoing basis (seriously, the amount of data that crosses my path on a daily basis would probably sound unbelievable to most people here). And despite being constantly plugged into changes, I find it more difficult than ever to keep on top of changes and, more importantly for what I do, to try and determine the trajectory of the future.

 

The rate of obsolescence and speed of tech/skill adoption to remain within some reasonable proximity of the competitive frontier is nuts. And the consequences of being left behind are increasingly big (gains concentrate at the top while middle is hollowed out).

Sorry, I just don't see it. Yes, a lot of things are changing, and some things are changing quickly, but they idea that this is somehow unprecedented is ridiculous. 

 

Quote

During your youth you could be reasonably sure that the time investment to learn some skill would be usable for decades. This was true for most of human history. Now? I'm not sure that anything I put my time into learning/building won't be done better by ML algos within 5-10 years.

Yeah, Tailor Mason's team will replace you any minute and you'll be on the street with a cup, yes? 

 

In ten years we went from almost no cars to Ford building a million a year. The guy that made buggy-whips learned how to upholster car seats. 

 

Quote

Is this good or bad? I don't know. I don't think that question matters. It just is. There's no point worrying about stuff you can't control. Figuring out how to handle your business in the shifting environment is the game.

Clearly this never changes...

 

Quote

Which brings me to this concluding point. And I want to try and put this delicately because my intention isn't to offend.

 

But I'm genuinely not sure how you can look at the world before/after the internet and globalization and believe that the rate and scale of change is the same.

I never said the rate and scale of change is the same. I think only a fool would say that. I believe the rate and scale of change changes continuously, such that it has never been the same, nor will it ever be the same, as it is right now. 

 

You said it was a "new world" and that is was a "challenging place" for you to "navigate successfully".

 

What I said was that the the world did not seem new to me, nor did I have any difficulty making sense of it or navigating in it. 

 

Then I asked you what it is that you find so challenging about navigating the world successfully. You did not answer. 

 

So again, what is it you find so challenging about navigating the world successfully? 

 

Quote

I see people (not necessarily you) say "has nothing changed" from time to time, and I wonder what the confines of their world must be like. Like, yes. It's possible to live out a relatively simple existence. But so much of the world will always remain closed to those people. I can see how checking out might be attractive, but unless self-actualization and genuine freedom have been achieved, I don't think it's the right move.

I don't know of anyone that thinks nothing has changed, unless it was in regards to something very specific, like kids thinking have it harder than their parents or parents thinking their kids have it easy. 

 

You seem to have this idea that fifty years ago there was nothing but great jobs for everyone, and that it was easy for everyone to buy a home and everyone saved loads of money for retirement. I remember it differently. 

 

The big difference is that now there are a lot more people with with degrees looking for jobs than there are jobs that truly require a degree. Too many people get degrees that are largely useless. I doubt very much people with degrees in a STEM related discipline have significant difficulty finding a decent job. A job that will support buying a great home in a great area with a great car they can drive five minutes to a great office that has a free Starbucks in the lunch room? Perhaps not. 

 

And for kids that don't want to go to school, there is no shortage of good paying jobs in welding, auto repair, sales, roofing, plumbing, maintenance, manufacturing etc.   

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Yellowtail

[The Cipher]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

So again, what is it you find so challenging about navigating the world successfully? 

I wrote a long response to your post and when I pressed 'Submit Reply' I got an error page and now that post is lost. Now I'm dejected and just not interested in writing all that again????.

 

I'll just say that the previous post I made answered more of your questions than perhaps you thought it did. And if you read it again and don't agree, then I was completely wrong and see it 100% your way now.

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I'm sorry, but you do seem to be going on about how easy previous generations had it and how difficult your generation has it, yes?

The obvious hardship for this generation of men is women, and you all missed it!

If you have sex with a woman, she is now entitled to your home, your pension ........

and if she chooses to have a kid, child maintenance for the next 20 years.

Not to mention false accusations of sexual misconduct/rape/domestic violence, which could leave you broke, homeless, jailed and unemployable.

 

My dad certainly never had that worry.

[zzaa09]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:33 PM, BritManToo said:

Most older men you meet in person are a little more restrained than they are online.

We've nearly all learned to keep our thoughts to ourselves.

Different in anonymous forums.

Best to keep one's distance as a general strategy. 

This circle of company wouldn't be my first choice......or even on the list.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, The Cipher said:

I wrote a long response to your post and when I pressed 'Submit Reply' I got an error page and now that post is lost. Now I'm dejected and just not interested in writing all that again????.

 

I'll just say that the previous post I made answered more of your questions than perhaps you thought it did. And if you read it again and don't agree, then I was completely wrong and see it 100% your way now.

Weak

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

The obvious hardship for this generation...

I have to say I think it's that they can't seem to come up with anything that doesn't involve a litany of links to other people's thinking. 

 

Think about how much easier being a Wall Street investment analyst became when spreadsheets came into being,  and then again once everything went online. Yet with all that, even though the funds are managed "experts" with advanced degrees and all the information in the world at their fingertips, still half of them don't out perform index funds. How funny is that? It's still a monkey with a handful of darts, but now there are more monkeys and they're paid a lot more.