Opinion: Mixed blessings for Thai-US relations

[snoop1130]

US President Joe Biden / AFP

 

Looking back over the past year, Thailand’s overall relations with all the great powers have been cordial and have moved in the right direction, except, that is, with the US.

 

Thailand, the “old and great” friend of the US has been deliberately neglected by Washington, as if both have become enemies.

 

Since the Biden administration came to power, Thai-US relations have been riddled with fault lines. It’s almost as if they have fallen under a mysterious spell. Both countries have missed great geopolitical opportunities to re-energize their over two hundred year old friendship.

 

Full Story: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/opinion-mixed-blessings-for-thai-us-relations/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2021-12-28

 

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[HappyExpat57]

I seem to recall the Biden administration offering a metric butt-ton of Pfizer to Thailand. The LOS doesn't exactly have a lot to offer in return and the US doesn't want to align with PM's who obviously have no clue as to how an actual democracy operates.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am NO fan of Biden and fully understand how the US is a façade of a democracy. I'm merely pointing out this administration isn't casting seed to infertile ground.

[StayinThailand2much]

Looking for an excuse to lick China's feet and ... even more.

[thaiman]

Neglected?  Anyone have recent stats?

 

"The United States contributed $17.7 billion of foreign direct investment (FDI) to Thailand in 2019, making it the third-largest foreign investor after Japan ($70 billion) and Singapore ($30 billion). "

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-thailand/

Edited December 28, 2021 by thaiman

[fusion58]

8 hours ago, HappyExpat57 said:

I could show you where you're wrong but you wouldn't listen. Not my first rodeo with those who can't carry on a cogent discussion, so they resort to common childish slogans they heard on media streams that can't legally call themselves news outlets.

Yep. The sheep learned a new catch phrase.

[hotchilli]

15 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Since the Biden administration came to power, Thai-US relations have been riddled with fault lines. It’s almost as if they have fallen under a mysterious spell. Both countries have missed great geopolitical opportunities to re-energize their over two hundred year old friendship.

Maybe Thailand should consider it's love affair with China.....

 

[mtls2005]

Cobra Gold 2022.

 

 

[Srikcir]

11 hours ago, thaiman said:

Neglected?  Anyone have recent stats?

 

"The United States contributed $17.7 billion of foreign direct investment (FDI) to Thailand in 2019, making it the third-largest foreign investor after Japan ($70 billion) and Singapore ($30 billion). "

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-thailand/

Waste of US taxpayer dollars and needs a more realistic quid pro quo relationship.

""Thailand does not view China as a revisionist power or a military threat."

What has the US gotten for its $17 billion?

"Access to Thailand's Utapio naval airbase with its $30 million in upgrades." Albeit, when it doesn't clash with China's domestic and foreign policies.

"Thailand (under PM Prayut) denied US access to support humanitarian operations in support of the Rohingya 2017-2018 Myanmar government ethnic cleansing campaign."

https://warontherocks.com

January 2, 2020

"America Should Be Realistic About its Alliance with Thailand."

[spidermike007]

The US is not neglecting Thailand. That was a bizarre assertion, at best. Billions in aid, millions of doses of high quality vaccine, that Thailand COULD NOT manage to get on its own. Significant foreign investment. And in return for what, exactly? 

[rwill]

I was watching Thai news yesterday.  They had a guy on talking about 5 things to watch out for in 2022.  The first thing on the list was American aggression against China.  No mention that China is trying to expand it's territory in the Pacific.

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, rwill said:

I was watching Thai news yesterday.  They had a guy on talking about 5 things to watch out for in 2022.  The first thing on the list was American aggression against China.  No mention that China is trying to expand it's territory in the Pacific.

Considering that US is the largest operator of military bases and 7 navy fleets around the world with active-duty soldiers and navy personels; seem the agression perception is justified. The presence of the 7th Fleet in Asia Pacific is a provocating image and closeness of military bases in Japan and South Korea to China does rattle them. China does not have that kind of expansive military bases and hardwares to expand territorially. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Eric Loh
wrong word

[swm59nj]

I have not seen any type of news reports regarding US relations with Thailand being negative or problematic.  According to the US embassy in Bangkok, the relationship appears positive.

[Scott3000]

How soon do we lose historical perspective?

 

Thailand WON the Vietnam war, hands down. US, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos all lost. Thailand scored big, but doesn't seem to have the elephant's memory, ever since "Lost in Thailand" hit the Chinese cinemas in December, 2012.

I met a Thai "veteran" of the Vietnam war, in Chiang Mai, in 2016 -- the most complicated year for foreigners in Thailand in recent memory. They told me there were 2 US bases in the province. They got a job at a Base Exchange, then worked their way up to Communications. They told me they were paid in dollars, noting it was "good money", and smiled. They told me how friendly the American GI's were to them.

 

We sat on a bench at Wat Suan Dok and chatted as the sun went down during the sweltering heat of April. Two weeks later, I had to leave the country for 6 months, for immigration reasons.

 

If you think of the kind of income that person made, over a span of several years, at the beginning of their adult life -- they could build a whole life from such an opportunity. And from that meeting later on in that person's life, I would say that they had done just that.

 

Not too many people -- none, to be exact -- remember the mutual "benefits" of the Vietnam war: The US got to engage in warfare from its base in Thailand, and Thais got a huge influx of hard currency. Not just privileged Thais, but regular folks, the kind you might meet taking a stroll at your favorite temple...

[Tropposurfer]

I love the narrative I read here about how altruistic and wonderful that great nation is. All the money (billions referred to my posters)  they GIVE (????) to Thailand ... of course it is completely free with no expectations, no strings, and how ridiculous to even hint at a profitable return  or return on investments they make here.

What a preposterous notion to believe that the most voracious capitalist nation on earth would ever expect a healthy return on their investments. Far better (just obviously convenient for the 'we are so innocent' victim narrative) to troop out the ... this great nation is being taken advantage of and used my the world.  

[John Drake]

1 hour ago, Scott3000 said:

How soon do we lose historical perspective?

 

Thailand WON the Vietnam war, hands down. US, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos all lost. Thailand scored big, but doesn't seem to have the elephant's memory, ever since "Lost in Thailand" hit the Chinese cinemas in December, 2012.

I met a Thai "veteran" of the Vietnam war, in Chiang Mai, in 2016 -- the most complicated year for foreigners in Thailand in recent memory. They told me there were 2 US bases in the province. They got a job at a Base Exchange, then worked their way up to Communications. They told me they were paid in dollars, noting it was "good money", and smiled. They told me how friendly the American GI's were to them.

 

We sat on a bench at Wat Suan Dok and chatted as the sun went down during the sweltering heat of April. Two weeks later, I had to leave the country for 6 months, for immigration reasons.

 

If you think of the kind of income that person made, over a span of several years, at the beginning of their adult life -- they could build a whole life from such an opportunity. And from that meeting later on in that person's life, I would say that they had done just that.

 

Not too many people -- none, to be exact -- remember the mutual "benefits" of the Vietnam war: The US got to engage in warfare from its base in Thailand, and Thais got a huge influx of hard currency. Not just privileged Thais, but regular folks, the kind you might meet taking a stroll at your favorite temple...

There were upwards of 20,000 Thais fighting in Laos during Vietnam War. They provided defense for mountain top fly ins operated by Air America. Here is one of the more famous examples:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lima_Site_85

What is also true is that Air America's operations in Thailand gave a leg up to Thailand's aviation industry. Many Thais trained as pilots, kickers, and maintenance technicians. They never received that quality of training again in this country.

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Considering that US is the largest operator of military bases and 7 navy fleets around the world with active-duty soldiers and navy personels; seem the agression perception is justified. The presence of the 7th Fleet in Asia Pacific is a provocating image and closeness of military bases in Japan and South Korea to China does rattle them. China does not have that kind of expansive military bases and hardwares to expand territorially. 

The US is defending allies around the world, often allowing allies to coast on US defense dollars and make little effort to defend themselves.  When a country asks the US to remove a military installation, the US complies.  That is what happened in Philippines in 1991.  If Japan, South Korea, or other countries hosting US military installations made a similar request the US would comply.

 

Regarding aggression; has the US used its military to occupy islands and steal fishing and mineral rights from countries that own these islands and rights under international law?  China has.

[jimmybcool]

19 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Considering that US is the largest operator of military bases and 7 navy fleets around the world with active-duty soldiers and navy personels; seem the agression perception is justified. The presence of the 7th Fleet in Asia Pacific is a provocating image and closeness of military bases in Japan and South Korea to China does rattle them. China does not have that kind of expansive military bases and hardwares to expand territorially. 

I think a little perspective is appropriate here.

 

Yes, the US has had for over 70 years a huge military presence around the world.  And yes China has had little.  That part is all true.  But when the concept of aggression is raised let's look at actions.

 

In that 70 years of worldwide military dominance the USA has invaded, conquered and KEPT how much territory?  Yes, not all actions are altruistic.  Yes, the USA has used money around the world to gain influence.  Yes, like every nation the USA put America first in it's foreign policy.   But in the end of the day no nation in the world has reason to fear the USA is going to annex them for whatever reasons.  In general because the USA had it so good we were happy to just keep the peace.  Note we have NEVER made an aggressive move against China.  We are their largest customer.  They have zero reason to fear our navy assuming they have good intent. 

 

China however has not only annexed Nepal it is laying claim to MOST of the seas in southeast asia.  I'm sure you have seen the maps of what they lay claim to and the fact they built islands and placed military bases on them in the middle of the ocean.  Plus I am certain we are all aware of the very real threat of them invading Taiwan. 

 

And the fact China has little project-able force yet is coming to an end.  They are actively in process of building a preeminent naval force.  The pace they are on is replicating the French navy every 4 years which is impressive and it is including modern aircraft carriers.  At this time with the lack of carriers no one takes them seriously.  But they should.  China has the largest navy in the world by numbers.  Agreed the US Navy us far more advanced and in a shoot out China loses but who else stands in their way?  And will that be true in 2031?

 

There is a reason India, Korea and Japan are all upgrading and expanding their navies.  That reason isn't the presence of US Naval bases or ships.  it is the increasing aggressive tactics from Beijing. 

 

[jacko45k]

23 hours ago, rwill said:

I was watching Thai news yesterday.  They had a guy on talking about 5 things to watch out for in 2022.  The first thing on the list was American aggression against China.  No mention that China is trying to expand it's territory in the Pacific.

More apparent might be Chinese aggression and aspirations with it's neighbours and poor countries worldwide. Also the suppression of free speech in Hong Kong..... don't mention the Tiananmen Square massacre! One has to wonder if they have a controlling finger in Thai media, as they did with the WHO!

[Eric Loh]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

The US is defending allies around the world, often allowing allies to coast on US defense dollars and make little effort to defend themselves.  When a country asks the US to remove a military installation, the US complies.  That is what happened in Philippines in 1991.  If Japan, South Korea, or other countries hosting US military installations made a similar request the US would comply.

 

Regarding aggression; has the US used its military to occupy islands and steal fishing and mineral rights from countries that own these islands and rights under international law?  China has.

I don’t think Pentagon has change their policy on having at least 100,000 troops in the Asia Pacific Rim. Bases in this region has been dictated by this Pentagon’s policy to maintain a robust presence which is deemed as as aggressive posturing. 
 

US initiated the move out of Clark because they felt that the costs to rebuild the airbase that was massively damaged by Mt Pinatubo was not justifiable. They can use other bases for their Air Force in Thailand and in Singapore in their bilateral agreements. 
 

Okinawa folks have been burdened by the US base with rapes and murders incidents committed by the troops. They don’t want the base. Don’t think it will

move any dial with the Japanese government and US as the North Korea threats are menacing. 
 

South Korea need US presence for deterring threats from the northern neighbor and perhaps from Japan who annexed Korea in the past. 
 

China has not occupied any South China Sea disputed islands. They have reclaimed undisputed coral reefs. South China Sea dispute is best negotiated by the concerning countries without provocation of non involved countries. 

[sscc]

In past few months,  various high ranking USA officials had visited ASEAN countries including 

USA Vice President  Harris 

USA Secretary of State Blinken 

USA Deputy Secretary of State Sherman 

USA Secretary of Defense  Austin 

 

Before and/or After all these USA official visits,  ASEAN countries, including Singapore, Indonesia,  Vietnam,  Philippines, Malaysia had consistently responded and announced that  "Don't ask us to choose sides -- between USA and China."   Singapore Prime Minister Lee had even talked and wrote about it time and again in 2020 and 2021. 

 

In anticipation of  the last Blinken visit conducted just weeks ago,   Indonesia top newspaper media Jakarta Post had headlined  ---  " Let's have coffee,  Mr. Secretary "  to WELCOME BLINKEN,  as all ASEAN countries fully  knew the purpose and hidden agenda of Blinken and USA official visits to this region.   

 

So many including many members here of course not hearing or knowing about it because the Western mainstream media and most English-language news are selectively reporting, lightly reporting, and delay reporting news related to China,  except bad news (  real or fake or long-term or potential issue ) about China.     As in this case,   these "Press-titutes"  had NOT  got the response they wanted from ASEAN countries explicitly  such as USA is securing peace in the region due to China influence. 

 

To really have good balance and  understand about USA Vs China issue,  one need to NOT just read and hear Western mainstream media and/or English-Language news.    Need to get out of comfort zone to other news from elsewhere.   All that simple. 

 

 

 

[jimmybcool]

17 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I don’t think Pentagon has change their policy on having at least 100,000 troops in the Asia Pacific Rim. Bases in this region has been dictated by this Pentagon’s policy to maintain a robust presence which is deemed as as aggressive posturing. 
 

US initiated the move out of Clark because they felt that the costs to rebuild the airbase that was massively damaged by Mt Pinatubo was not justifiable. They can use other bases for their Air Force in Thailand and in Singapore in their bilateral agreements. 
 

Okinawa folks have been burdened by the US base with rapes and murders incidents committed by the troops. They don’t want the base. Don’t think it will

move any dial with the Japanese government and US as the North Korea threats are menacing. 
 

South Korea need US presence for deterring threats from the northern neighbor and perhaps from Japan who annexed Korea in the past. 
 

China has not occupied any South China Sea disputed islands. They have reclaimed undisputed coral reefs. South China Sea dispute is best negotiated by the concerning countries without provocation of non involved countries. 

That is an interesting take but seems to avoid the bigger picture of which nation is perceived as the greater threat by Thailand or other nations in the region.  On some of those points:

 

100,000 troops in Asia-Pacific.  Deemed aggressive posturing by whom?  Pretty sure there are only 2 nations that concerns.  North Korea and China.  And it concerns them as it represents a barrier to any aggression they might consider.  And it has worked so far.  I am worried that as the USA weakens Taiwan might not be safe much longer.

 

Okinawa folks are NOT the entire Japanese peoples.  Yup, there have been far too many incidents surrounding that base.  It needs resolution and the locals would like the base gone.  Heck, got people near me in USA want the local airbase gone.  In the bigger picture Japan likes having the USA as a military partner since they were made into a  non-militant status following WWII.  As the US seems to be withdrawing and no longer an assured balance of power in the region the Japanese are again developing deep water naval assets.  The gloves are off and Japan is slowly militarizing.  Seems it is Chinese aggression that concerns them not USA.

 

Regarding the islands - no they haven't accupied disputed islands - they MADE disputed islands and have equipped them with military airstrips.  They are claming mineral and fishing rights and enforcing them against weaker nations such as Viet Nam and Phillipines.  If the US Navy didn't regularly sail right past these fake islands that have not been recognized my the international community they would probably enforce no shipping zones.  They cry every time a naval ship violates their false claim of national waters.

 

It is hard to find a legitimate spin that doesn't view China as the emerging aggressor in the Asia-Pacific region.  And it is hard to spin the USA presence there for 70 years as anything but a stabilizing force for the most part.  My bet is the Thais have zero concern with US military presense in the region.  They are simply being cautious antagonizing China since it is becoming clear the US empire is nearing an end and China emerging and they fear China. 

 

Fortunately for the world and smaller nations there are other counterbalance emerging to face off with China in Japan and India.  The USA doesn't have to be so dominant as they ramp up.  Hopefully China as it becomes a dominant world power will also discover something akin to respect for other nations and human rights and becomes a decent international citizen.  Probably not unless there is a revolution from within but one can always hope.

 

 

[heybruce]

21 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I don’t think Pentagon has change their policy on having at least 100,000 troops in the Asia Pacific Rim. Bases in this region has been dictated by this Pentagon’s policy to maintain a robust presence which is deemed as as aggressive posturing. 
 

US initiated the move out of Clark because they felt that the costs to rebuild the airbase that was massively damaged by Mt Pinatubo was not justifiable. They can use other bases for their Air Force in Thailand and in Singapore in their bilateral agreements. 
 

Okinawa folks have been burdened by the US base with rapes and murders incidents committed by the troops. They don’t want the base. Don’t think it will

move any dial with the Japanese government and US as the North Korea threats are menacing. 
 

South Korea need US presence for deterring threats from the northern neighbor and perhaps from Japan who annexed Korea in the past. 
 

China has not occupied any South China Sea disputed islands. They have reclaimed undisputed coral reefs. South China Sea dispute is best negotiated by the concerning countries without provocation of non involved countries. 

I must wonder if you are misinformed or attempting to misinform others.

 

Who has "deemed as aggressive posturing" the US military presence on the Asia Pacific rim?

 

Clark AFB Philippines was closed in 1990, before the Pinatubo eruption.  Also, while Clark AFB was replaceable, the Subic Bay Naval Base was not, losing it seriously impacted US Naval operations in the Pacific.  However, as I already explained, when the lease on the base expired and a new lease was not agreed to, the US left.

 

Yes, US service members in Okinawa have committed crimes, and been prosecuted.  If the Japanese government asks the US to leave Okinawa, it will.

 

Apparently China doesn't agree with your statement about undisputed reefs:

 

"Beijing reaffirmed its right to build on disputed islands in the South China Sea on Thursday after satellite imagery emerged of construction operations turning tropical reefs into concrete artificial islands."  https://news.yahoo.com/china-defends-land-reclamation-disputed-islands-143446330.html

[heybruce]

20 hours ago, sscc said:

In past few months,  various high ranking USA officials had visited ASEAN countries including 

USA Vice President  Harris 

USA Secretary of State Blinken 

USA Deputy Secretary of State Sherman 

USA Secretary of Defense  Austin 

 

Before and/or After all these USA official visits,  ASEAN countries, including Singapore, Indonesia,  Vietnam,  Philippines, Malaysia had consistently responded and announced that  "Don't ask us to choose sides -- between USA and China."   Singapore Prime Minister Lee had even talked and wrote about it time and again in 2020 and 2021. 

 

In anticipation of  the last Blinken visit conducted just weeks ago,   Indonesia top newspaper media Jakarta Post had headlined  ---  " Let's have coffee,  Mr. Secretary "  to WELCOME BLINKEN,  as all ASEAN countries fully  knew the purpose and hidden agenda of Blinken and USA official visits to this region.   

 

So many including many members here of course not hearing or knowing about it because the Western mainstream media and most English-language news are selectively reporting, lightly reporting, and delay reporting news related to China,  except bad news (  real or fake or long-term or potential issue ) about China.     As in this case,   these "Press-titutes"  had NOT  got the response they wanted from ASEAN countries explicitly  such as USA is securing peace in the region due to China influence. 

 

To really have good balance and  understand about USA Vs China issue,  one need to NOT just read and hear Western mainstream media and/or English-Language news.    Need to get out of comfort zone to other news from elsewhere.   All that simple. 

 

In summary:

 

The US has active diplomatic relations with ASEAN nations.

 

ASEAN nations are doing a balancing act in their relations with the US and China.

 

People who rely on western mainstream media are unaware of this, even though I knew about it from reading western mainstream media.

[sscc]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

In summary:

 

The US has active diplomatic relations with ASEAN nations.

 

ASEAN nations are doing a balancing act in their relations with the US and China.

 

People who rely on western mainstream media are unaware of this, even though I knew about it from reading western mainstream media.

 

 

Obama  visited Indonesia and received standing ovation  ( partly due to his boyish years in Jakarta ) about 10 years ago,  and in 2021 Secretary Blinken got a cordial “ invitation for coffee “  as per Indonesian News.  Vice President Harris was openly dubbed and nicked  “ Alamak “ during her visit to Singapore ( spelling her first name in reverse and forming a not-very-nice label in the local Singapore/Malaysian language ).   Blinken and Harris purpose of visit was of course about discussing security, threat, order and most of all, China.

 

USA influence in South East Asia had fallen drastically in the past few years ( My opinion is just direct and pragmatic,  you and others may disagree on this statement anyway. )     If USA really wants to gain influence and pressure countries,  it would have to move away from discursive play, and really start to put real projects and some real cash on the table.   

 

USA has active diplomatic relations with ASEAN nations as per your wording.   China is working actively on real projects with ASEAN countries.   Money always talk, let’s not be novice.

 

 

 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, sscc said:

 

 

Obama  visited Indonesia and received standing ovation  ( partly due to his boyish years in Jakarta ) about 10 years ago,  and in 2021 Secretary Blinken got a cordial “ invitation for coffee “  as per Indonesian News.  Vice President Harris was openly dubbed and nicked  “ Alamak “ during her visit to Singapore ( spelling her first name in reverse and forming a not-very-nice label in the local Singapore/Malaysian language ).   Blinken and Harris purpose of visit was of course about discussing security, threat, order and most of all, China.

 

USA influence in South East Asia had fallen drastically in the past few years ( My opinion is just direct and pragmatic,  you and others may disagree on this statement anyway. )     If USA really wants to gain influence and pressure countries,  it would have to move away from discursive play, and really start to put real projects and some real cash on the table.   

 

USA has active diplomatic relations with ASEAN nations as per your wording.   China is working actively on real projects with ASEAN countries.   Money always talk, let’s not be novice.

 

China is working on real projects in Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar (the three most impoverished and corrupt of the ASEAN nations) and is in talks (lots of talking) with others.  Japan invests more money in Thailand than China.  https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Thailand-s-top-investor-is-Japan-again-as-China-slows-spending

 

BTW:  Some easily amused people made a big deal about "Kamala" spelled backwards is amalak.  So what?

 

Origin: Malay – An exclamation word to express shock or surprise

Alamak is an exclamation word used in situations when you are shocked or surprised by something or an event. It is something akin to “Oh my Mother!” and also “Oh my God!”.   https://www.singlish.net/alamak/