ICE vs EV, the debate thread

Yellowtail · July 5, 2022

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Even if that's true, and thanks for not citing any source at all, as per usual, much faster charging times are coming soon.

Did you want me to provide a source that shows that 300 units at two minutes a unit is ten hours, or that pumps are busiest before work, during lunch and after work, that facilities are designed to accommodate peak flow or that one could buy a telephone for $6.00 in 1975?

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And unlike the situation with gasoline, the charging stations don't depend on staff for servie. So you don't have to wait for service when the station is busy. I don't know about you, but I spend a lot of time waiting for my payments to be processed when the staff is stressed.

That's pretty weak. Fuel pumps do not depend on staff and service in the US, but they do here. Are you arguing it will be different with charging stations here?

I think charge stations in parking lots are great, and I think EVs are great.

Yellowtail · July 5, 2022

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What I said was the the standard current in the USA was 110-120 volts. To use a level 2 charger you need 220-240 volts. So in the US you need an electrician to create a 220 volt line.

No, what you said was that it took twice as long to charge something in the US than it does in Thailand because of the voltage difference. That is simply not true.

Neither is it true that 220V is not readily available in virtually every US home. HVAC, laundry rooms and kitchens most all have 220 installed.

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In Thailand the standard current is 220-240. No special installation needed.

The standard residential voltage in Thailand is 230VAC. There is no standard current. Regardless of the voltage, if something draws a lot of current, it generally requires a dedicated line.

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As for my comment about charging, it was in response to Transam about home basic charge for EV's. I pointed out that voltage in thailand is twice as strong as in the USA. (or for that matter Canada and Mexico)

Regardless, of what it was in response to, it was not true. Yes, the voltage in a typical residential receptacle in Thailand is about double the voltage of the typical residential receptacle in the US, but that will not cut the charge time of a battery in half.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Yellowtail
clarity

placeholder · July 5, 2022

23 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Did you want me to provide a source that shows that 300 units at two minutes a unit is ten hours, or that pumps are busiest before work, during lunch and after work, that facilities are designed to accommodate peak flow or that one could buy a telephone for $6.00 in 1975?

Now it's 2 minutes? Just a few hours ago you were saying 5 minutes. Gas stations have made a lot of progress in service this morning. That said, I have never had an experience where it took just 2 minutes for me to have my gas tank filled and pay for it.

Do you understand that calling your iphone or samsung a phone and calling a phone from 1975 a phone is massively misleading? Apart from making a phone call could that 1975 phone do any of the things that a modern run-of-the-mill mobile phone can do? Much less a $1600 one? A modern mobile is not just a phone, is it? So claiming that prices have gone up is not so much comparing apples to oranges as it is comparing bicycles to Teslas.

Hedonic adjustment and Inflation

Hedonics is the science of trying to work out how much product quality has changed and adjusting inflation to take account of the fact more expensive products are not just inflation, but also improved quality. It is used in the US and UK calculation of inflation

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/603/inflation/hedonics-and-inflation/#:~:text=Hedonics is the science of,and UK calculation of inflation.

placeholder · July 5, 2022

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, what you said was that it took twice as long to charge something in the US than it does in Thailand because of the voltage difference. That is simply not true.

Neither is it true that 220V is not readily available in virtually every US home. HVAC, laundry rooms and kitchens most all have 220 installed.

The standard residential voltage in Thailand is 230VAC. There is no standard current. Regardless of the voltage, if something draws a lot of current, it generally requires a dedicated line.

Regardless, of what it was in response to, it was not true. Yes, the voltage in a typical residential receptacle in Thailand is about double the voltage of the typical residential receptacle in the US, but that will not cut the charge time of a battery in half.

And immediately following that sentence there's one that goe 'Plug in your car in the evening..." That didn't give you clue? And how was your objection relevant to that?

placeholder · July 5, 2022

48 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, what you said was that it took twice as long to charge something in the US than it does in Thailand because of the voltage difference. That is simply not true.

Neither is it true that 220V is not readily available in virtually every US home. HVAC, laundry rooms and kitchens most all have 220 installed.

The standard residential voltage in Thailand is 230VAC. There is no standard current. Regardless of the voltage, if something draws a lot of current, it generally requires a dedicated line.

Regardless, of what it was in response to, it was not true. Yes, the voltage in a typical residential receptacle in Thailand is about double the voltage of the typical residential receptacle in the US, but that will not cut the charge time of a battery in half.

I said it would take an electrician to create a line for it.

As for current

What happens if plug an 110V appliance in 220V socket?

The insulation is usually not a problem unless there is a major flaw in the design. It is current that is your enemy, a piece wire that is warm at 110V (120v) will turn into a fuse at 220V (230v, 240v), all other things being equal. Determining the wattage/load is usually performed by the design engineer to meet the performance specs set by the electrical engineer.

http://www.gohz.com/what-happens-if-plug-an-110v-appliance-in-220v-socket#:~:text=The insulation is usually not,all other things being equal.

Yellowtail · July 5, 2022

25 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Now it's 2 minutes? Just a few hours ago you were saying 5 minutes. Gas stations have made a lot of progress in service this morning. That said, I have never had an experience where it took just 2 minutes for me to have my gas tank filled and pay for it.

I never said two minutes, you said a couple minutes, which I assumed meant two.

You claimed most people do not care it it takes a couple extra minutes, I only used that to point out that to process 300 units, two extra minutes per units takes an extra ten hours.

Now, as usual you've changed the subject and you're pretending were were talking about something else.

Typical.

25 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you understand that calling your iphone or samsung a phone and calling a phone from 1975 a phone is massively misleading? Apart from making a phone call could that 1975 phone do any of the things that a modern run-of-the-mill mobile phone can do? Much less a $1600 one? A modern mobile is not just a phone, is it? So claiming that prices have gone up is not so much comparing apples to oranges as it is comparing bicycles to Teslas.

I'm sorry you felt mislead when I said a phone I bought for six dollars in 1975 was comparable to the phone I bought earlier this year, I never occurred to me that you would assume this to be the case.

Yellowtail · July 5, 2022

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I said it would take an electrician to create a line for it.

As for current

What happens if plug an 110V appliance in 220V socket?

The insulation is usually not a problem unless there is a major flaw in the design. It is current that is your enemy, a piece wire that is warm at 110V (120v) will turn into a fuse at 220V (230v, 240v), all other things being equal. Determining the wattage/load is usually performed by the design engineer to meet the performance specs set by the electrical engineer.

http://www.gohz.com/what-happens-if-plug-an-110v-appliance-in-220v-socket#:~:text=The insulation is usually not,all other things being equal.

Really?

transam · July 5, 2022

Interesting...

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/24/5-common-electric-car-questions-answered.aspx

JetsetBkk · July 5, 2022

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Interesting...

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/24/5-common-electric-car-questions-answered.aspx

VERY interesting...

"Tesla Motors (TSLA 1.24%) notes that using a 110v outlet will charge a Tesla Model S at approximately three miles of range per hour. "

:cheesy: Only 3 miles of range per hour of charge!!

"Tesla Motors recommends that owners install a 240v outlet for faster charging. The company estimates that this would allow the Model S to charge at 29 miles of range per hour, drastically cutting charging time compared to the 110v outlet. "

Almost 10 times more range per hour of charge! How does that work? ????

transam · July 5, 2022

6 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

VERY interesting...

"Tesla Motors (TSLA 1.24%) notes that using a 110v outlet will charge a Tesla Model S at approximately three miles of range per hour. "

Only 3 miles of range per hour of charge!!

"Tesla Motors recommends that owners install a 240v outlet for faster charging. The company estimates that this would allow the Model S to charge at 29 miles of range per hour, drastically cutting charging time compared to the 110v outlet. "

Almost 10 times more range per hour of charge! How does that work? ????

Aren't the LOS EV'ers lucky it's 230volts here, if 110volts there would be an EV owner silence here.....????

KhunLA · July 5, 2022

6 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

VERY interesting...

"Tesla Motors (TSLA 1.24%) notes that using a 110v outlet will charge a Tesla Model S at approximately three miles of range per hour. "

Only 3 miles of range per hour of charge!!

"Tesla Motors recommends that owners install a 240v outlet for faster charging. The company estimates that this would allow the Model S to charge at 29 miles of range per hour, drastically cutting charging time compared to the 110v outlet. "

Almost 10 times more range per hour of charge! How does that work? ????

Let me know where those 110v outlets are in TH, so I can avoid...

... I was just going to use my USB port on the laptop ????

transam · July 5, 2022

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Let me know where those 110v outlets are in TH, so I can avoid...

... I was just going to use my USB port on the laptop ????

No doubt.....????

JetsetBkk · July 5, 2022

2 minutes ago, transam said:

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Let me know where those 110v outlets are in TH, so I can avoid...

... I was just going to use my USB port on the laptop ????

No doubt.....????

See you next year after you've charged your Tesla via the USB...

transam · July 5, 2022

1 minute ago, JetsetBkk said:

See you next year after you've charged your Tesla via the USB...

No Tesla for me.....????

VocalNeal · July 5, 2022

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

I suspect that as time goes by and EV's gradually become more common and then prevalent, condo owners will agree to installing the cheapest options first and work their way up to the most expensive, and most profitable, ones.

If you look closely in this image you can see all the power outlets hanging in the parking lot. Not for EV's but for ICE's in winter. However if condo owners have designated parking.

https://goo.gl/maps/haWygH9vbkFgAeeo7

placeholder · July 6, 2022

15 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I never said two minutes, you said a couple minutes, which I assumed meant two.

You claimed most people do not care it it takes a couple extra minutes, I only used that to point out that to process 300 units, two extra minutes per units takes an extra ten hours.

Now, as usual you've changed the subject and you're pretending were were talking about something else.

Typical.

I'm sorry you felt mislead when I said a phone I bought for six dollars in 1975 was comparable to the phone I bought earlier this year, I never occurred to me that you would assume this to be the case.

And I have repeatedly pointed out to you that even if it did take 2 extra minutes the crucial factor is how many chargers there are. Moreover, you seem to insist on this being an important consideration even though it's very early days in the EV revolution. Treating the current charging times for batteries as an important consideration when EVs in Thailand are still so few, and charging times are already being cut drastically, actually comparable to time it takes to fill up an ICE vehicle., is disingenuous. Moreover, all the chargers I have seen in Thailand are self service. Which means no waiting for an attendant to take your cash or credit card..

As for your phone nonsense. You're the one who tried to use the cost of a phone now vs. a phone back when to claim that technology doesn't necessarily make consumer items cheaper. So, of course, you were making a comparison. Why else did you bring it up? Because you thought it was a fun fact? And to make it worse, the cost of a mobile phone that you cited would be extremely high end.

KhunLA · September 28, 2022

This is a real life comparison, of MG ZS ICE vs EV, operating cost vs buy in price & ROI in a very short time.

EV ... ฿949k

ICE .. ฿739k

So the EV cost 210k more, and we'll be charging the battery with solar, unless O&A.

฿210k ÷ ฿30 per L for E85, if you can find it. or ฿35 for 91

= 7000 liters, good for 11 kpL, as we average that now

After a mere 77,000 kms, about 4 yrs driving for most, and

cost is at break ever, simply on petrol savings.

ICE had 6 oil changes already, 1 tune up, and another 10k ish

kms and you'll need cam belt changed.

After 4 yrs, cost to operate EV -0- when charging w/ home solar.

฿5 X 50kW = ฿250 is using most expensive PEA at home

VS ฿1090 for 36L X ฿30 per L to go the same 400 kms the EV will travel per top up, 0-100% Saving ฿840 with every 400 kms traveled.

Believing your 'saving the planet' or not, (I don't) it just makes economical sense to go EV, and Solar. Take control of your wallet, and provide better air for us all to breathe. Better air part I believe.

Even better, for those not needing an SUV, the MG EP is only ฿771k, so there is NO time to wait for ROI, savings are almost instant. The MG EP priced about the same as a few top end models of the most popular cars sold in Th.

Of course if you can't charge at home, or with solar, the ROI will take a bit longer. With maybe a once every week or two, depending on kms racked up, visit to a CS, for top up, and maybe a munch, coffee/pasty while waiting. Or simply top up when at the mall. Trust me when I say CS now are easier to find than PTTs selling E85.

If that's too much for you, and if O&A, and you actually enjoy driving 4+ hrs without stopping, and too impatient to top up, again while refueling your body, THEN AN EV SIMPLY ISN'T FOR YOU. Enjoy you ICE at that premium price.

GBP, AUD & EUR going down down down, fluctuating petrol price & inflation, then you may want to consider adapting & adjusting for the future, and taking control of your wallet, away from the corporations.

Forum auto changes the 'text'...that's annoying.

Edited September 28, 2022 by KhunLA

pedro01 · September 28, 2022

The new mercedes c63 is a 2.0 hybrid with combined 750hp and 0-100kmh of 3.1 seconds.

And the price is going to be around 4million thb when it hits Thailand.

Thats cheaper and better than any Tesla here, tax is low on it, plus there wont be a $30k bill when your battery dies.

pedro01 · September 28, 2022

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

This is a real life comparison, of MG ZS ICE vs EV, operating cost vs buy in price & ROI in a very short time.

EV ... ฿949k

ICE .. ฿739k

So the EV cost 210k more, and we'll be charging the battery with solar, unless O&A.

฿210k ÷ ฿30 per L for E85, if you can find it. or ฿35 for 91

= 7000 liters, good for 11 kpL, as we average that now

After a mere 77,000 kms, about 4 yrs driving for most, and

cost is at break ever, simply on petrol savings.

ICE had 6 oil changes already, 1 tune up, and another 10k ish

kms and you'll need cam belt changed.

After 4 yrs, cost to operate EV -0- when charging w/ home solar.

฿5 X 50kW = ฿250 is using most expensive PEA at home

VS ฿1090 for 36L X ฿30 per L to go the same 400 kms the EV will travel per top up, 0-100% Saving ฿840 with every 400 kms traveled.

Believing your 'saving the planet' or not, (I don't) it just makes economical sense to go EV, and Solar. Take control of your wallet, and provide better air for us all to breathe. Better air part I believe.

Even better, for those not needing an SUV, the MG EP is only ฿771k, so there is NO time to wait for ROI, savings are almost instant. The MG EP priced about the same as a few top end models of the most popular cars sold in Th.

Of course if you can't charge at home, or with solar, the ROI will take a bit longer. With maybe a once every week or two, depending on kms racked up, visit to a CS, for top up, and maybe a munch, coffee/pasty while waiting. Or simply top up when at the mall. Trust me when I say CS now are easier to find than PTTs selling E85.

If that's too much for you, and if O&A, and you actually enjoy driving 4+ hrs without stopping, and too impatient to top up, again while refueling your body, THEN AN EV SIMPLY ISN'T FOR YOU. Enjoy you ICE at that premium price.

GBP, AUD & EUR going down down down, fluctuating petrol price & inflation, then you may want to consider adapting & adjusting for the future, and taking control of your wallet, away from the corporations.

Forum auto changes the 'text'...that's annoying.

Only downside, neither are cars for car fanatics. They are bland, lifeless transport items.

Some dont want to be transported, some of us want to really enjoy the driving experience.

Put your calculator away and put your foot down.

KhunLA · September 28, 2022

31 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

Only downside, neither are cars for car fanatics. They are bland, lifeless transport items.

Some dont want to be transported, some of us want to really enjoy the driving experience.

Put your calculator away and put your foot down.

Did that when I was a kid. I've matured since. Can't play speed racer here, you'll end up with someone committing suicide on your hood.

Besides, I'm not paying silly money, for a performance car, that I'll rarely use. Need the SUV for O&As. Days of owning 4 vehicles for 4 purposes are over. I'm more practical now, well, sort of always was, that why in past, multiple vehicles.

All I need & want now is a nice machine for point A to B, that in the end, pays for itself in savings vs an ICE. What's not to love about that.

vinny41 · September 28, 2022

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

This is a real life comparison, of MG ZS ICE vs EV, operating cost vs buy in price & ROI in a very short time.

EV ... ฿949k

ICE .. ฿739k

So the EV cost 210k more, and we'll be charging the battery with solar, unless O&A.

฿210k ÷ ฿30 per L for E85, if you can find it. or ฿35 for 91

= 7000 liters, good for 11 kpL, as we average that now

After a mere 77,000 kms, about 4 yrs driving for most, and

cost is at break ever, simply on petrol savings.

ICE had 6 oil changes already, 1 tune up, and another 10k ish

kms and you'll need cam belt changed.

After 4 yrs, cost to operate EV -0- when charging w/ home solar.

฿5 X 50kW = ฿250 is using most expensive PEA at home

VS ฿1090 for 36L X ฿30 per L to go the same 400 kms the EV will travel per top up, 0-100% Saving ฿840 with every 400 kms traveled.

Believing your 'saving the planet' or not, (I don't) it just makes economical sense to go EV, and Solar. Take control of your wallet, and provide better air for us all to breathe. Better air part I believe.

Even better, for those not needing an SUV, the MG EP is only ฿771k, so there is NO time to wait for ROI, savings are almost instant. The MG EP priced about the same as a few top end models of the most popular cars sold in Th.

Of course if you can't charge at home, or with solar, the ROI will take a bit longer. With maybe a once every week or two, depending on kms racked up, visit to a CS, for top up, and maybe a munch, coffee/pasty while waiting. Or simply top up when at the mall. Trust me when I say CS now are easier to find than PTTs selling E85.

If that's too much for you, and if O&A, and you actually enjoy driving 4+ hrs without stopping, and too impatient to top up, again while refueling your body, THEN AN EV SIMPLY ISN'T FOR YOU. Enjoy you ICE at that premium price.

GBP, AUD & EUR going down down down, fluctuating petrol price & inflation, then you may want to consider adapting & adjusting for the future, and taking control of your wallet, away from the corporations.

Forum auto changes the 'text'...that's annoying.

Not a true life comparison as you have omitted the 345K baht for your 8kw solar installation

Add the 345K baht and the 210K cost difference between ICE and EV and your have a cost difference that the EV is 75% more expensive than the ICE

KhunLA · September 28, 2022

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Not a true life comparison as you have omitted the 345K baht for your 8kw solar installation

Add the 345K baht and the 210K cost difference between ICE and EV and your have a cost difference that the EV is 75% more expensive than the ICE

Didn't buy that for the EV, bought for the house, it's just a plus that it's there, so I can use it for the EV

KhunLA · October 26, 2022

A bittersweet top up of the MG ZS ICE yesterday. 1400 baht of E85 @ 33+ per Liter and now about 10% less, if that, from 91. Jan 2021 it was 25% cheaper than 91. Big Oil moving the goal post...again.

Bittersweet ... as that is the last time we'll be wasting money on the ICE, petrol driven transport. EV version has arrived. F O big Oil ... never again ????

Edited October 26, 2022 by KhunLA

KhunLA · November 6, 2022

Food for thought ...

IF considering an EV, in the future, do buy before gov't incentives are gone.

Not only did we save ฿240k when buying, but gained ฿240k in value, IF selling in the future.

Insured value of MG ZS EV if totaled is ฿960k.

Priced we paid for MG ZS EV ฿11K less @ ฿949k ????

Makes up for and then some, selling the ICE version of only 2 yrs old. Only worse depreciation value would be sell an ICE at 1 yr old, or right after driving off the dealer lot.

unheard · November 6, 2022

On 9/28/2022 at 11:36 AM, KhunLA said:

then you may want to consider adapting & adjusting for the future, and taking control of your wallet, away from the corporations.

Adapting and adjusting for the future?

Are you claiming to know what's coming to the car tech even in the near future?

According to the Toyota's CEO with all available to him nearly unlimited resources and cutting edge latest tech the car's future is uncertain so they as a company decided to continue to develop ICE, solid-state batteries and hydrogen.

Edited November 6, 2022 by unheard

JBChiangRai · November 10, 2022

On 9/28/2022 at 4:25 PM, pedro01 said:

The new mercedes c63 is a 2.0 hybrid with combined 750hp and 0-100kmh of 3.1 seconds.

And the price is going to be around 4million thb when it hits Thailand.

Thats cheaper and better than any Tesla here, tax is low on it, plus there wont be a $30k bill when your battery dies.

I think you will find it the new AMG C63s to be 2-3 times the cost you mentioned, it won't be assembled here because of lack of demand, neither will it come in CKD (Knock-Down-Kit) form, it will be an expensive import.