ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No

 

Thought so, I couldn't smell burning this time.

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Thought so, I couldn't smell burning this time.

Did you mean to say thought not? 

[KhunLA]

Just like ICEVs, nothing goes to waste, after an oops, or the rest of the vehicle can't keep up.   Definitely an after market for battery packs, and most car's packs are larger than what people have on there solar system already.

 

Our SS has 20kWh of ESS (cost ฿185k), our car has 50kWh (46.3 usable).  When the motor & battery lasts longer then the rest of the car, 10-15-20 yrs ... yea, the solar system will be ready for an additional ESS bank.  More savings from the EV:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/281458917585652

Edited November 14, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/865090578669196

[KhunLA]

EV savings vs ICEV.  One of our common short overnight O&A trips, where we need a CS, is when visiting daughter at Krung Thep.

 

PKK - KT - PKK is about the 600 kms, a bit less.  We leave PKK @ 100%, and good for 250 kms, with nice reserve.  We top up and try to make it back home, with about the same reserve, 50kms, so topping up at home with solar for 250 kms.  600 kms + 50 kms reserve.

 

650 kms trip, with 500 kms of that, from solar.  If all goes to plan, that means we need 150 kms worth of energy, which is about 1/2 of battery use or 23 kWh, @ ฿7.5 / kWh = ฿173.

 

EV - 600 kms = ฿173

ICEV - 600 kms = ฿1500

(600 ÷ 14 kpL X ฿34.88 (91)

 

Savings pays for nice meal or inexpensive hotel.

 

Price of 91 so far for 2023

Low - ฿34.18 (7 Jan)

High - ฿40.18 (20 Sept)

Edited November 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

EV - 600 kms = ฿173

ICEV - 600 kms = ฿1500

(600 ÷ 14 kpL X ฿34.88 (91)

TTL is wrong, and more like  ฿338

correction

Edited November 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

TTL is wrong, and more like  ฿338

correction

Do you not use a spreadsheet? If you're going to calculate your saving on every trip you would just have to set it up once and just plug and chug. 

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you not use a spreadsheet? If you're going to calculate your saving on every trip you would just have to set it up once and just plug and chug. 

Nah, don't do it that often.   I know how much 300 & 360 kms cost me vs petrol.  Once is enough.   With the ever changing petrol cost, I'd have to adjust it anyway.

 

This is ball park enough for me, though I really don't think of it much, just if posting here.  I just keep track of O&A trip kms, for a quick calculation at end of the year.   So I know what to subtract off total kms for the year.  Not sure I'll even do that again, as once was enough.

 

Post elsewhere on AN, after 1yr / 19.990 kms:

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[Purdey]

Thailand may be going through the joys of EV early days but other countries are taking a good, hard look. A new study in the USA discovered that  fueling electric vehicles costs roughly $17 per gallon (in the US only) with hidden costs  from an increased burden on the energy grid exerted by charging stations, and an enormous amount of federal subsidies. I guess Thailand will find out more a few years down the road.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-environment/study-fueling-electric-vehicles-17-gallon

 

I do wish there was more use of solar and wind energy here to replace coal and oil.

[JBChiangRai]

9 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Thailand may be going through the joys of EV early days but other countries are taking a good, hard look. A new study in the USA discovered that  fueling electric vehicles costs roughly $17 per gallon (in the US only) with hidden costs  from an increased burden on the energy grid exerted by charging stations, and an enormous amount of federal subsidies. I guess Thailand will find out more a few years down the road.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-environment/study-fueling-electric-vehicles-17-gallon

 

I do wish there was more use of solar and wind energy here to replace coal and oil.

 

Not really, consumers aren't paying anything like that.

 

That article makes unrealistic assumptions

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Not really, consumers aren't paying anything like that ... That article makes unrealistic assumptions

You ain't kidding

 

Check out an area where I used to live, suburb Philly, PA, USA

Off peak - peak price @ CS: $.42-49kWh

For our ZS, normal driving, 360 kms, cost about $19.45 - $22.69

Petrol for 360 kms would cost about $25.00

 

So not a whole lot of savings, if using CS.

Charging at home, would cost $7.50 ... 1/3 of petrol cost for same kms 👍

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:57 PM, KhunLA said:

TTL is wrong, and more like  ฿338

correction

I wasn't far off, as it turned out to be 611 kms @ ฿306.12

Leaving house @ 100%, returning @ 20%

Charging 2X along the way ,,,

... ฿162.82 @ ฿5,3 per kWh X 32.72 kWh

... ฿143.30 @ ฿5.5 per kWh X 26.6 kWh

 

vs 611 ÷ 14 kpL = 42.64 L X ฿34.68 = ฿1513

for petrol if using ICE version of MG ZS

 

Saving ฿1200, paying for our bungalow & dinner at our pitstop @ Phetchaburi on the way home.   Thank You.

Edited November 24, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

  (or any idiot who is running on empty in any vehicle)

https://www.facebook.com/reel/736120741888742

[Purdey]

EVs may be the future, and most here are happy with them, but as more information about them shows, there may be a penalty that is not too obvious at the beginning of the trend. When I read that "EVs had 79 percent more reliability problems than a gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicle, on average" I expect people to say they haven't seen these issues in Thailand yet as the country is at the beginning of the curve. 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/

Whenever a relatively "new technology" is introduced (keeping in mind the first EV was introduced in 1890), there is bound to be the odd teething issue. I intend to keep following this thread to hear what owners say over time.

[macahoom]

24 minutes ago, Purdey said:

When I read that "EVs had 79 percent more reliability problems than a gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicle, on average" I expect people to say they haven't seen these issues in Thailand yet as the country is at the beginning of the curve. 

 

I had an MG ZS EV for more than four years and, other than a dud 12V battery shortly after taking delivery, the car was fault free.

[JBChiangRai]

31 minutes ago, Purdey said:

EVs may be the future, and most here are happy with them, but as more information about them shows, there may be a penalty that is not too obvious at the beginning of the trend. When I read that "EVs had 79 percent more reliability problems than a gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicle, on average" I expect people to say they haven't seen these issues in Thailand yet as the country is at the beginning of the curve. 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/

Whenever a relatively "new technology" is introduced (keeping in mind the first EV was introduced in 1890), there is bound to be the odd teething issue. I intend to keep following this thread to hear what owners say over time.

interestingly, there are no Chinese vehicles in the survey, my experience with Chinese EV’s is they are incredibly reliable, not a fault on the two we have.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

interestingly, there are no Chinese vehicles in the survey, my experience with Chinese EV’s is they are incredibly reliable, not a fault on the two we have.

Another survey, totally irrelevant to TH 

[Purdey]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

totally irrelevant

Pretty sure the main differences are that the west has longer experience with EVs and more variety of models/brands. Thailand is going to catch up with all this in the future. Not trying to be overly critical but if I don't need to change, I would rather wait to see how the local market develops.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Purdey

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, Purdey said:

Pretty sure the main differences are that the west has longer experience with EVs and more variety of models/brands. Thailand is going to catch up with all this in the future. Not trying to be overly critical but if I don't need to change, I would rather wait to see how the local market develops.

Agree, though I'm a bit too old to wait, and really happy with what we bought/ZS.  Really like what's available now, though only the Atto 3 would interest me.  Really like them.

 

Like the SIVs, especially the small ones.  Me & sedans don't get along any more.   Wife won't go back either.  Along with no desire to spend >1M for any 4 wheels.

 

As nice as they are, don't think we would spring for anything new coming to market.  Love the options & competition presented though.

[Pib]

Best Selling Vehicles daily tally at the ongoing Motor Expo 29 Nov-11 Dec 2023 in Bangkok.  And the top selling manufacturers are not Toyota or Honda but as of 30 Nov it's Changun and BYD.

https://www.motorexpo.co.th/bestselling/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:00 PM, Pib said:

Best Selling Vehicles daily tally at the ongoing Motor Expo 29 Nov-11 Dec 2023 in Bangkok.  And the top selling manufacturers are not Toyota or Honda but as of 30 Nov it's Changun and BYD.

https://www.motorexpo.co.th/bestselling/

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Fortuner fights back and beat the EVangelists. 

1. Toyota 

2. Honda

3. BYD

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The Fortuner fights back and beat the EVangelists. 

1. Toyota 

2. Honda

3. BYD

 

What the figures are saying is that people want EV's, the legacy automakers must be sh?tt?ng themselves.

[Pib]

34 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The Fortuner fights back and beat the EVangelists. 

1. Toyota 

2. Honda

3. BYD

Gosh, I love my 2009 Fortuner (still using it as my secondary vehicle) and would have bought a 2023/24 Fortuner if they had an EV version; but they don't.  So, I bought a 2023 BYD Atto 3 EV....been driving it for six weeks now and love it.  

 

As JBChiangRai said Toyota and Honda as legacy automakers must be shi%%ing themselves in how well EV automakers (mostly Chinese) are doing.  While Toyota and Honda with their myriad of ICE vehicles came in #1 and #2 in "bookings" at the recent Moto Expo 30 Nov -11 Dec, BYD came in a strong 3rd followed by other Chinese manufacturers with a lot of EV models.   

 

Moto Expo Booking 30 Nov - 11 Dec 2023

 

 

[Pib]

 

Some updated of bookings at the recent Moto Expo along with estimated percentage (approx 44%) that were EVs.   Thanks to @Andrew Dwyer and @KhunLA.   

 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Results of the reservations from Motor Expo 

 

 

• อันดับ 1 Toyota  7,245 คัน
• อันดับ 2 Honda  6,149 คัน
• อันดับ 3 BYD  6,119 คัน
• อันดับ 4 Aion  4,568 คัน
• อันดับ 5 MG  3,568 คัน
• อันดับ 6 GWM  3,524 คัน
• อันดับ 7 ChangAn  3,549 คัน
• อันดับ 8 Isuzu  2,460 คัน
• อันดับ 9 Nissan  2,459 คัน
• อันดับ 10 Mazda  2,159 คัน
• อันดับ 11 NETA  1,766 คัน
• อันดับ 12 Mitsubishi  1,675 คัน
• อันดับ 13 Suzuki  1,615 คัน
• อันดับ 14 Ford  1,415 คัน
• อันดับ 15 Mercedes-Benz  1,333 คัน
• อันดับ 16 BMW  1,188 คัน
• อันดับ 17 Hyundai  680 คัน
• อันดับ 18 TESLA*  528 คัน
• อันดับ 19 Volvo  485 คัน
• อันดับ 20 KIA  321 คัน
• อันดับ 21 Wuling  312 คัน
• อันดับ 22 NEX  229 คัน
• อันดับ 23 Subaru  206 คัน
• อันดับ 24 MINI  172 คัน
• อันดับ 25 Lexus  140 คัน
• อันดับ 26 Audi  120 คัน
• อันดับ 27 Peugeot  101 คัน
• อันดับ 28 Porsche  72 คัน
• อันดับ 29 Lotus  41 คัน
• อันดับ 30 Jeep  26 คัน
• อันดับ 31 TATA  15 คัน
• อันดับ 31 Maserati  15 คัน
• อันดับ 33 Bentley  1 คัน
• อื่นๆ BRG  69 คัน

 

48 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

23 hours ago, Pib said:

 

Some updated of bookings at the recent Moto Expo along with estimated percentage (approx 44%) that were EVs.   Thanks to @Andrew Dwyer and @KhunLA.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

44% EVs is an interesting number, the honeymoon period is far from over.

With overall EV sales around 16%, we will probably see a saturation point around 20-30% as subsidies fade away.

That means 10-15% of cars on the road in 10 years will be EVs.

[JBChiangRai]

52 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

44% EVs is an interesting number, the honeymoon period is far from over.

With overall EV sales around 16%, we will probably see a saturation point around 20-30% as subsidies fade away.

That means 10-15% of cars on the road in 10 years will be EVs.

 

Flawed logic.

 

You don't look at an exponential curve and say it's about to plateau, that's fiction.

 

IMHO, when the subsidies disappear, the prices will remain the same, I wouldn't rule out a drop in price next year too.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Flawed logic.

 

You don't look at an exponential curve and say it's about to plateau, that's fiction.

 

IMHO, when the subsidies disappear, the prices will remain the same, I wouldn't rule out a drop in price next year too.

Competition is a beautiful things.  We've seen MG w/price drops since competition has arrived.   Along with tweak battery packs, cheaper chemistry (LFP) & production cost, and passed on to the consumer to remain competitive.  

 

As with all electronic tech, newer, upgraded, improved usually follows, along with price drops.

[GroveHillWanderer]

For those saying they'd only ever consider an EV if it gave them equivalent or better range than an ICE vehicle, here's another contender to consider.

 

NIO Revolutionizes Electric Vehicles with Solid-State Battery Pack Exceeding 930 km Range

 

Quote

NIO, the Chinese electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, has made a significant breakthrough in EV technology by introducing a solid-state battery pack with exceptional energy density, allowing for a range of over 930 kilometers on a single charge. 

 

Solid state batteries also promise shorter charging times, especially once faster chargers are available.

 

It's a bit pricey though, with the more powerful battery model (that gives the longest range) costing around US $60,000.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It's a bit pricey though, with the more powerful battery model (that gives the longest range) costing around US $60,000.

Only 1.7M baht, and the price of many imports from JP here.  Less than some of the silly price Yanks pay for trucks & cars in USA.   

 

1M is my limit for 4 wheels, and not exactly happy about that   Point A to B with a bit of performance & comfort is all I need.

 

Ouch ...

2023 Nissan Titan Platinum Reserve

Price: $62,630

2024 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 ZR2

Price: $71,895

2023 Toyota Tundra Capstone

Price: $77,645

2024 GMC Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate

Price: $82,500

2023 Ram 1500 TRX

Price: $85,050 

2023 Ford F-150 Limited

Price: $83,010

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Only 1.7M baht, and the price of many imports from JP here.  Less than some of the silly price Yanks pay for trucks & cars in USA.   

 

1M is my limit for 4 wheels, and not exactly happy about that   Point A to B with a bit of performance & comfort is all I need.

 

Ouch ...

2023 Nissan Titan Platinum Reserve

Price: $62,630

2024 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 ZR2

Price: $71,895

2023 Toyota Tundra Capstone

Price: $77,645

2024 GMC Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate

Price: $82,500

2023 Ram 1500 TRX

Price: $85,050 

2023 Ford F-150 Limited

Price: $83,010

 

 

 

Base price for a new F-150 in the US is ~1.2M with a 3.3-liter V6 or ~1.3M with a 5-liter V8.

 

A new Camry starts at ~950K with a 2.5-liter DOHC-I4