ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[kwilco]

 

Unless there is a huge social sea-change, we need private 4-wheeled transport.

THe OP "ICE vs EV, the debate thread" is really a false dichotomy.

 

For a start one needs to define ICE - as some hydrogen vehicles may be ICE.

THe production costs and raw materials for traditional cars have the same but different dark sides too.

Again we get the appearance of the "not a lot of people know that" brigade who want to emphasise single issues with EVs as if they mean we should revert to fossil fuel ICEs. For instance child labour is a red-herring – this crops up in production systems all over the world for different products – and it has to be stopped but it isn’t a reason to stop making EVs., trainers, jeans, drilling oil (Nigeria) etc etc…. (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2011/08/un-confirms-massive-oil-pollution-niger-delta/#:~:text=According to UNDP%2C more than,clean up all oil spills. )

 

The truth is we are not returning to fossil fuelled cars.

Nowadays, any car built today is built with FAR more consideration to the 3 phases.

For those who haven't considered them, they are 

1.     production - from raw materials to product

2.     usage - the life of the car

3.     disposal - how much of the vehicle is reduced, reused and recycled

 

Any transport requires energy and it is how that affects MMCC that is important.

Emissions are the obvious but how and WHERE they are emitted is also important.

Centrally generated energy can be far less polluting than mobile devices spreading climate change gases as they go. Central power generation is changing too and the emissions are much more easy to monitor and control

 

The motor industry in general has accepted the concept of EVS and within a short time they will undercut fossil fuel ICEs in every way. The key factor being annual cost of ownership.

 

Hydrogen may be an alternative in the future – Toyota have done a huge amount of research into hydrogen vehicles – even selling production cars – as yet it isn’t viable but this may change.

 

The other side of EV v ICE is that we already use static hydrogen power in hosptitals aetc and other vehicles and static uses will also supplant fossil fuels – power generation, shipping, railways and maybe even aircraft.

4-wheeled private vehicles are only part of a major turnaround.

 

[JBChiangRai]

9 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Sorry, I meant I should follow it more closely. I am actually thinking of buying a BYD Seal but the battery problems, if they exist, are making me consider something more like my avatar. 

There are lots of members here have the BYD Seal, you could ask their opinion in the BYD Seal Helps & Tricks forum.

 

I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[macahoom]

9 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Sorry, I meant I should follow it more closely. I am actually thinking of buying a BYD Seal but the battery problems, if they exist, are making me consider something more like my avatar. 

 

A 1970 Hillman Avenger?

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, macahoom said:

 

A 1970 Hillman Avenger?

My first car was a Hillman Hunter GLS

[Yellowtail]

Hey, what was everyone's? 

Me: 

First to drive: '62 Chevy II wagon 

First to own: '53 Ford F-100

First to wreck: '67 Ford Econoline 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Hey, what was everyone's? 

Me: 

First to drive: '62 Chevy II wagon 

First to own: '53 Ford F-100

First to wreck: '67 Ford Econoline 

Drive ???  Maybe the old Chrysler with the 'push button' selector on AT.

Own ... 66/67 ? VW Van (in 1974)

2nd owned ... 1950 Buick Special (1974)

Wreck ... 1966 Impala, I wasn't supposed to be driving

2nd  wreck ... 1962/63 Impala that I stole 

[JetsetBkk]

12 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

There are lots of members here have the BYD Seal, you could ask their opinion in the BYD Seal Helps & Tricks forum.

 

I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for the info. I'll have a look at that forum next. 👍

[JetsetBkk]

12 hours ago, macahoom said:

 

A 1970 Hillman Avenger?

Close! 😂 😂 I think it was supposed to look like a '69 Mustang 351, but not sure if it was in fact a Ford 3L Capri. 

There weren't many gif's around 20 years ago! 

[JetsetBkk]

12 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Hey, what was everyone's? 

Me: 

First to drive: '62 Chevy II wagon 

First to own: '53 Ford F-100

First to wreck: '67 Ford Econoline 

Here we go:

Morris 1100

Ford Cortina Mk 1

Ford Anglia 100 E

Ford Capri 3L

Datsun Cherry

Ford Mustang 351 1969 Mach 1

Renault 19

Renault 19 Executive

Toyota Tiger 2.5l Pickup

Yamaha Nouvo 135cc

 

Still have the last two, but next month? 🤔

 

 

[DavisH]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

Here we go:

Morris 1100

Ford Cortina Mk 1

Ford Anglia 100 E

Ford Capri 3L

Datsun Cherry

Ford Mustang 351 1969 Mach 1

Renault 19

Renault 19 Executive

Toyota Tiger 2.5l Pickup

Yamaha Nouvo 135cc

 

Still have the last two, but next month? 🤔

 

 

Just watched some mustangs racing at Goodwood on youtube. Good stuff! My dad has a 71 XYfalcon, sadly not a v8. 

[ExpatOilWorker]

I just want to drive 🚗... 😊 😃. 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/ea32RvJRuLwuCFwe/?mibextid=xCPwDs

[KhunLA]

Saw this looking for something else, thought interesting.  A couple models not available here.  Surely will out perform most ICEV in their class/price point.

 

Listed the prices I could find, though a couple may not show the govt incentive in price.   MG the clear winner price wise (with incentive price), even if the other 4 get discounted.

 

Short version, without watching...

 

 

[KhunLA]

 

CATL ... stay informed:

https://www.youtube.com/@CATLOfficial

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

I didn't see it in the news section, so to the joy of our EV friends, I will share it here.

We have a little fire 🔥 at the Map Ta Phut tank terminal.

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

47 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I didn't see it in the news section, so to the joy of our EV friends, I will share it here.

We have a little fire 🔥 at the Map Ta Phut tank terminal.

 

Looks like a Neta V .

[mogandave]

Kia EV 9 on display at Mega Bangna. Pretty nice and roomy inside…

 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I didn't see it in the news section, so to the joy of our EV friends, I will share it here.

We have a little fire 🔥 at the Map Ta Phut tank terminal.

 

 

Unfortunate indeed.   Wouldn't surprise me for it to be blamed on an parked EV catching fire which then spread to the tank farm.  Standby for an AI enhanced Youtube video on some EV Hating channel  (sponsored by Toyota) blaming it on an EV.

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/gas-tank-fire-in-map-ta-phut-kills-at-least-one/

[HighPriority]

28 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

Unfortunate indeed.   Wouldn't surprise me for it to be blamed on an parked EV catching fire which then spread to the tank farm.  Standby for an AI enhanced Youtube video on some EV Hating channel  (sponsored by Toyota) blaming it on an EV.

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/gas-tank-fire-in-map-ta-phut-kills-at-least-one/

I think the op is a classic W⚓️

[KhunLA]

Call me crazy, but like the Toyota Champ, (for ICEV, non diesel), seeing one recently, a black version, and just straight up pick up, and mother's love ugly, but I liked it.  Way too practical, and a step above the Suzuki Carry, with same practical work bed.  Long enough to actually lay down in, instead of the popular, uncomfortable, vibrating, noisy, smelly diesel SUV-ish, w/short useless bed.

They offer lots of option for fitting it out, or go private after sales add on, if not creating something yourself.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Call me crazy, but like the Toyota Champ, (for ICEV, non diesel), seeing one recently, a black version, and just straight up pick up, and mother's love ugly, but I liked it.  Way too practical, and a step above the Suzuki Carry, with same practical work bed.  Long enough to actually lay down in, instead of the popular, uncomfortable, vibrating, noisy, smelly diesel SUV-ish, w/short useless bed.

They offer lots of option for fitting it out, or go private after sales add on, if not creating something yourself.

 

 

I think it's good looking, but a bit cramped...

[Pib]

EV & ICEV Jan-Mar 2024 sales/registrations for the ECO/Hatchback/Wagon segment.   

 

Please note the article says the ICEV numbers represent "Sales" and the EV numbers are "registrations."   Sales could represent nothing more than a "booking/reservation" that possibly does not follow-thru to a completed sale where the vehicle is registered (i..e, sale complete and govt issued a vehicle blue book/tags).   Don't know why the author of article is mixing apples with oranges....I expect the final sales numbers for the ICEVs will be lower as financing will fall-thru for X-amount and will not reach the registration stage. 

 

But regardless, notice in the chart below how EVs in this segment are out selling ICEVs for the quarter.    This is pretty noticeable here in the greater Bangkok area where EVs are as thick as fleas on a soi dog.   In the image below those vehicles with an asterisk (*) after the model name is an EV...and the chart below the image does break-out the ICEV and EV into separate sections.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/sales-report-eco-b-seg-hatchback-mar-2024/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

EV & ICEV Jan-Mar 2024 sales/registrations for the ECO/Hatchback/Wagon segment.   

 

Please note the article says the ICEV numbers represent "Sales" and the EV numbers are "registrations."   Sales could represent nothing more than a "booking/reservation" that possibly does not follow-thru to a completed sale where the vehicle is registered (i..e, sale complete and govt issued a vehicle blue book/tags).   Don't know why the author of article is mixing apples with oranges....I expect the final sales numbers for the ICEVs will be lower as financing will fall-thru for X-amount and will not reach the registration stage. 

 

But regardless, notice in the chart below how EVs in this segment are out selling ICEVs for the quarter.    This is pretty noticeable here in the greater Bangkok area where EVs are as thick as fleas on a soi dog.   In the image below those vehicles with an asterisk (*) after the model name is an EV...and the chart below the image does break-out the ICEV and EV into separate sections.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/sales-report-eco-b-seg-hatchback-mar-2024/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I am aware there is no tracking method available for tracking sales other than the brand saying I have sold x amount of this model this month

and to avoid Double dipping the majority of January registrations are the previous year December sales

When you look at the dlt figures you get a different set of figures from the above screenshot

Honda City hatchback registrations figures for January 2024 1,666, February 1,188 March 1,057 Total 3,911

Toyota Yaris registrations figures for January 2024 1,293 , February 998, March 997,  Total 3,288

Mitsubisha Mirage registrations figures for January 2024 230, February 193, March 270, Total 693

Suzuki Swift registrations figures for January 2024 416, February 437 March 315 Total 1,168

Mazda 2 hatchback registrations figures for January 2024 693 , February 517, March 415 Total 1,625

Suzuki Celerio registrations figures for January 2024 194,February 191 , March 126 Total 511

Total number of registrations for the period of January 1st- 31st March 2024 for the ICEV models is Total 11,196

[ExpatOilWorker]

6 hours ago, Pib said:

EV & ICEV Jan-Mar 2024 sales/registrations for the ECO/Hatchback/Wagon segment.   

 

Please note the article says the ICEV numbers represent "Sales" and the EV numbers are "registrations."   Sales could represent nothing more than a "booking/reservation" that possibly does not follow-thru to a completed sale where the vehicle is registered (i..e, sale complete and govt issued a vehicle blue book/tags).   Don't know why the author of article is mixing apples with oranges....I expect the final sales numbers for the ICEVs will be lower as financing will fall-thru for X-amount and will not reach the registration stage. 

 

But regardless, notice in the chart below how EVs in this segment are out selling ICEVs for the quarter.    This is pretty noticeable here in the greater Bangkok area where EVs are as thick as fleas on a soi dog.   In the image below those vehicles with an asterisk (*) after the model name is an EV...and the chart below the image does break-out the ICEV and EV into separate sections.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/sales-report-eco-b-seg-hatchback-mar-2024/

 

 

 

That is very interesting, but what is going on here?

Vinny's DLT numbers of 11,196 ICEV registrations blow a big hole in autolife's credibility. 

Is it just poor reporting and maybe the author Teerapat Moo don't really understand the numbers or does autolife have a political agenda?

I did contact Terapat about 2 weeks ago, when the source of sales numbers was first discussed, but he never replied. 

 

[motdaeng]

9 hours ago, Pib said:

 

 

no byd seal, atto 3, volvo, deepal or benz etc ...???

 

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

no byd seal, atto 3, volvo, deepal or benz etc ...???

 

Those vehicles are in different segments.

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

no byd seal, atto 3, volvo, deepal or benz etc ...???

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/sales-report-d-segment-mar-2024/?

 

Seal and deepal L07 are part of d-segment 

[Pib]

 

 

See this articles which explains the various (numerous) vehicle segments.

 

https://www.carsome.co.th/news/item/car-tips-car-segment

[ExpatOilWorker]

The unthinkable is finally happening, I am trading one of our ICE in and going full electric ⚡️. This is not about a major change in attitude and being an early adaptor was never important to me, but the time is right, the future is now and I found the right model that suits my needs.

Although I will now be in a similar situation to @Pib, let there be no doubt the Bimmer is safe and will reign supreme on the highway. 

An upfront thanks to members of this forum for providing an abundance of information on the subject and steering me in the right direction. May the electrons start flowing.

[macahoom]

4 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The unthinkable is finally happening, I am trading one of our ICE in and going full electric ⚡️. This is not about a major change in attitude and being an early adaptor was never important to me, but the time is right, the future is now and I found the right model that suits my needs.

Although I will now be in a similar situation to @Pib, let there be no doubt the Bimmer is safe and will reign supreme on the highway. 

An upfront thanks to members of this forum for providing an abundance of information on the subject and steering me in the right direction. May the electrons start flowing.

 

Have you already decided what you're gonna buy?

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The unthinkable is finally happening, I am trading one of our ICE in and going full electric ⚡️. This is not about a major change in attitude and being an early adaptor was never important to me, but the time is right, the future is now and I found the right model that suits my needs.

Although I will now be in a similar situation to @Pib, let there be no doubt the Bimmer is safe and will reign supreme on the highway. 

An upfront thanks to members of this forum for providing an abundance of information on the subject and steering me in the right direction. May the electrons start flowing.

 

I am not surprised.

 

What did you go for?