ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

I totally agree with you KhunLA.
 

At first it was “ev are rubbish”, then it became “ev destroy the environment” (ice are the environments friend… 🤔) “ev exploit children” etc etc…

Now thankfully we seem to have gotten past all that.

 

Now ev are evil because someone’s crystal ball predicts that they will have a lower resale value one day in the future… maybe… “I think”… possibly…

I wonder if their Crystal balls can help me with my lotto numbers ?

 

Its just a slightly refined version of their earlier “What ifs”

We await the next silly reason not to buy new or EVs.

 

Actually, I can only think of 2 reason not to buy either:

... you simply don't want one, for whatever reason, simply happy with what you have now.

... you can't afford one, although Neta V starting @ 499k baht, or decent ICEVs starting @ ~600k baht, really shouldn't be a financial burden on most people/families.   Even if financing, as interest rates are usually less than inflation rates for new cars. Keep it till it dies, if wanting to get your money's worth.  Not many new cars won't last 20+ years if you take care of them.

 

I've owned cars 10-15-20+ years old, as in the budget at the time, but still ran fine till I killed them.  I had a 1950 Buick in 1975, making that car, 4+ yrs old than myself at the time 

[Pib]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:01 PM, vinny41 said:

PCP doesn't appear as Fleet

What is a fleet vehicle?

Fleet vehicles are cars or vans which have been leased or purchased by a company for their employees to use for business purposes, which they can pay for on a monthly basis – a bit like getting a car on finance.

 

 

In the business/financing world fleet funding can occur various ways and be called different things.

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-management/fleet-funding-contract-purchase-or-personal-contract-purchase-pcp-/35738/

 

Quote

 

Fleet Funding: Contract purchase or personal contract purchase (PCP)

Contract purchase or personal contract purchase (PCP)

Contract purchase for a business aims to replicate the contract hire product, but uses a purchase based product.

The business agrees to buy the vehicle by paying instalments for a period of time, but the supplier agrees to buy it back at the end of the contract for a pre-agreed fixed price if the business does not want to take up the purchase option.

 

 

[vinny41]

32 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

In the business/financing world fleet funding can occur various ways and be called different things.

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-management/fleet-funding-contract-purchase-or-personal-contract-purchase-pcp-/35738/

 

 

Meanwhile, the share of personal contract hire (PCH) sales enquiries for all electric vehicles was 22.9% in the first-half of this year and BEVs accounted for 9.9% of total PCH vehicle enquiries.

https://brokernews.co.uk/leasing-com-announces-hypervolt-partnership/#

 

zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

Fleet or Business owners only 

That is why there is a growth in EV's from the business market you can offset tax against your purchase  likewise there is a  tax loophole in the UK for double cab  pickup's

However, currently, double cab pick-up trucks are charged at a flat rate which is £3,960 for the 2023/2024 tax year. For a 20 per cent taxpayer, van BIK is £792 per year, or £66 a month. For 40 per cent taxpayers, it’s £1,584 per year, or £132 a month.

From  July 1st 2024 higher rate taxpayers will pay £6,960 instead of the current £1,584 a difference of £5,376

https://www.independent.co.uk/money/pick-up-truck-tax-hmrc-b2496692.html

[Yellowtail]

Then why the mandates?

Government welcomes new legislation to drive electric vehicle adoption (fleetnews.co.uk)

[transam]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

We await the next silly reason not to buy new or EVs.

 

Actually, I can only think of 2 reason not to buy either:

... you simply don't want one, for whatever reason, simply happy with what you have now.

... you can't afford one, although Neta V starting @ 499k baht, or decent ICEVs starting @ ~600k baht, really shouldn't be a financial burden on most people/families.   Even if financing, as interest rates are usually less than inflation rates for new cars. Keep it till it dies, if wanting to get your money's worth.  Not many new cars won't last 20+ years if you take care of them.

 

I've owned cars 10-15-20+ years old, as in the budget at the time, but still ran fine till I killed them.  I had a 1950 Buick in 1975, making that car, 4+ yrs old than myself at the time 

I don't think you will be so lucky with a 10-15-20 year old EV, be no nipping round to O'Reilly's for a fix........🤭

[HighPriority]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

I don't think you will be so lucky with a 10-15-20 year old EV, be no nipping round to O'Reilly's for a fix........🤭

Why would you care ?

[transam]

Just now, HighPriority said:

Why would you care ?

Why would I care, I don't, how about you...........😘

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Why would I care, I don't, how about you...........😘

I  just googled the subject. and they said that batteries last  15-20 years or 100.000 -200.000 miles.

That does not sound right,  15 years 0r 100,000 means you drive 6.600 miles a year. 

If my car dies at 100k and I needed a $ 10.000 repair ......

I expect my Toyota ICE to last 300.000 miles. Am I missing something here? 

I guess in 15 years we should expect the cost of batteries to have come down. 

[transam]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I  just googled the subject. and they said that batteries last  15-20 years or 100.000 -200.000 miles.

That does not sound right,  15 years 0r 100,000 means you drive 6.600 miles a year. 

If my car dies at 100k and I needed a $ 10.000 repair ......

I expect my Toyota ICE to last 300.000 miles. Am I missing something here? 

I guess in 15 years we should expect the cost of batteries to have come down. 

Yep, with a lot of "warranty's" regarding any car it can be a bit misleading, like guaranteed for 50 years OR 50,000 miles...

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I  just googled the subject. and they said that batteries last  15-20 years or 100.000 -200.000 miles.

That does not sound right,  15 years 0r 100,000 means you drive 6.600 miles a year. 

If my car dies at 100k and I needed a $ 10.000 repair ......

I expect my Toyota ICE to last 300.000 miles. Am I missing something here? 

I guess in 15 years we should expect the cost of batteries to have come down. 

A conservative 2500 cycles, as some estimate as much as 10k cycle.   The wife will be very happy with 500k kms  

 

TransAm knows that, as I've replied to him with the same info so many times.  Why I simply chuckle at him and don't bother replying.

 

Simply ignore anyone who thinks 2500 cycles isn't a very real probability.

 

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

A conservative 2500 cycles, as some estimate as much as 10k cycle.   The wife will be very happy with 500k kms

I dont claim to know much about EVs , like most of us i am in the learning stage 

What do you mean by cycles ? is that a charge discharge?

What do you mean wife would be happy with 500,000 km .

Is that 500k out of a battery?

As I said I gooled it and was shocked to see the 100-200K  , I don't think that can be correct. 

100k now days is nothing for an ICE vehicle. 

 

I read that BYD and some others in China are getting ready to start solid state battery production. 

Also I read thar BYD is introducing a Pickup truck in Australia this year.  It looked nice . I wonder when they will bring it here in Thailand

[HighPriority]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Why would I care, I don't, how about you...........😘

I’m interested in the tech, doesn’t sound like everyone else is…

If they don’t buy one, why would they care ? 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

I’m interested in the tech, doesn’t sound like everyone else is…

If they don’t buy one, why would they care ? 

This and any other thread is for discussion, that's what a forum is for.................😉

[KhunLA]

33 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I dont claim to know much about EVs , like most of us i am in the learning stage 

What do you mean by cycles ? is that a charge discharge?

What do you mean wife would be happy with 500,000 km .

Is that 500k out of a battery?

As I said I gooled it and was shocked to see the 100-200K  , I don't think that can be correct. 

100k now days is nothing for an ICE vehicle. 

 

I read that BYD and some others in China are getting ready to start solid state battery production. 

Also I read thar BYD is introducing a Pickup truck in Australia this year.  It looked nice . I wonder when they will bring it here in Thailand

1 cycle is 1 full battery charge to zero.   So if you run your battery down to 50%, two times and top it up, two times, that 1 cycle.   So 1 full discharge and charge back up.

 

We get about 360 kms every full charge (46.3 kWh), hence the #s in red, and 900k kms ball park #.   That's not a dead battery, just one that no longer holds full capacity.   They estimate 80%, but I think that's a bit positive thinking, though hope I'm wrong.   I did calculate <5% at the 160k kms mark, so 80% @ 500 kms would be real nice.

We average about 300 kms at highway speeds, which is usually an average 80 kph over a 3 hr period, if lucky.  Driving 90-110 kph, when possible.  So after about 3+ hrs, and 250 kms, we usually top back up to 90-95%, as the last 5% goes in a bit slow.

 

900k kms is a negative #, and if she gets 500k kms, that should last her forever, as she would rack up the kms that much after I'm gone.   Lucky if she'll put on 10k kms a year.

[ExpatOilWorker]

42 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

A conservative 2500 cycles, as some estimate as much as 10k cycle.   The wife will be very happy with 500k kms  

 

TransAm knows that, as I've replied to him with the same info so many times.  Why I simply chuckle at him and don't bother replying.

 

Simply ignore anyone who thinks 2500 cycles isn't a very real probability.

 

I think the gap between EV manufacturer's battery warranty and what SeñorLA wish/hope/dream to squeeze out of his battery 🔋 is as wide as Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon.

[HighPriority]

20 minutes ago, transam said:

This and any other thread is for discussion, that's what a forum is for.................😉

Sorry, my bad.

I was under the impression that your only interest was denial and annoyance.

How was your holiday ?

[HighPriority]

12 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I think the gap between EV manufacturer's battery warranty and what SeñorLA wish/hope/dream to squeeze out of his battery 🔋 is as wide as Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon.

Then go away and come back in 10 years when we can discuss longer term numbers.

Yet people like you get hard ons about ice warrantee… 🤷🏼‍♂️

[talahtnut]

We are to be worried about our cars exhaust emissions,

but why dont they make electric aircraft carriers and biodegradable bombs,

green, less harmfull wars would be nice.

I think we've been conned.

[Pib]

Keep in mind that in a EV battery there is more than just batteries.....there is also electronics to manage the batteries.   While theoretically battery packs can be recharged thousands of times the electronics in the battery pack may not agree to last that long and fail.  And if the failed electronics are closely integrated with the batteries the EV manufacturer may not be able (or refuse) just to repair the battery pack but say you gotta buy a new one.   

 

There is a Youtube video where a guy buys a wrecked BYD Atto just to get the battery...and he has around a half dozen videos showing his disassembly of the battery pack....well, "partial disassembly" because he found out he could not disassemble fully because of how the blade batteries and accompanying battery management circuity boards plus other components were so tightly integrated....pretty much once assembled at the factory they will forever stay assembled....not designed for disassembly/repair.   

 

I think most of us now LED lights have theoretical/advertised lifetime of 50K to 100K hours; however, that relates to the tiny, little LED light itself....but that LED light can not operate/shine bright without its driver (a.k.a., its power supply) which is some various electronic devices on the board containing the LEDs.  Usually when an LED light fails it's some component in the power supply vs the LED light itself.    I have LED light bulbs throughout my house...a couple times a year I have to change one or two of them as they fail....they failed far, far short of the 50K hours point.

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

10 hours ago, Pib said:

Keep in mind that in a EV battery there is more than just batteries.....there is also electronics to manage the batteries.   While theoretically battery packs can be recharged thousands of times the electronics in the battery pack may not agree to last that long and fail.  And if the failed electronics are closely integrated with the batteries the EV manufacturer may not be able (or refuse) just to repair the battery pack but say you gotta buy a new one.   

 

There is a Youtube video where a guy buys a wrecked BYD Atto just to get the battery...and he has around a half dozen videos showing his disassembly of the battery pack....well, "partial disassembly" because he found out he could not disassemble fully because of how the blade batteries and accompanying battery management circuity boards plus other components were so tightly integrated....pretty much once assembled at the factory they will forever stay assembled....not designed for disassembly/repair.   

 

I think most of us now LED lights have theoretical/advertised lifetime of 50K to 100K hours; however, that relates to the tiny, little LED light itself....but that LED light can not operate/shine bright without its driver (a.k.a., its power supply) which is some various electronic devices on the board containing the LEDs.  Usually when an LED light fails it's some component in the power supply vs the LED light itself.    I have LED light bulbs throughout my house...a couple times a year I have to change one or two of them as they fail....they failed far, far short of the 50K hours point.

 

 

Will be interesting to see how BYD deals with the European "right to repair" law. (The new law mandates sellers to propose repairs if products fail during the legal guarantee period, accompanied by a one-year extension of the guarantee after repair.)

Prior to your BYD purchase, you investigated the BYD warranty pretty well and it is, at least on paper, pretty good for the first 6 years.

However a few BYD owners have been caught in small cracks in the warranty; software problems. 

BYD dealers then claim it can only be solved by a technician from China and they have been left car-less for month.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Will be interesting to see how BYD deals with the European "right to repair" law. (The new law mandates sellers to propose repairs if products fail during the legal guarantee period, accompanied by a one-year extension of the guarantee after repair.)

Prior to your BYD purchase, you investigated the BYD warranty pretty well and it is, at least on paper, pretty good for the first 6 years.

However a few BYD owners have been caught in small cracks in the warranty; software problems. 

BYD dealers then claim it can only be solved by a technician from China and they have been left car-less for month.

 

It's going to come down to market dynamics.

 

If I was a young person now, armed with my Electronic Engineering degree, I would be thinking about setting up an auto repair shop like Gruber Motors in the US.  They specifically repair "unrepairable" Tesla batteries, power electronics modules etc saving their owners tens of thousands of dollars.

 

There is going to be a huge market for that and the barriers to entry are quite high, but academic rather than financial. Some people are going to get rich from this.

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

It's going to come down to market dynamics.

 

If I was a young person now, armed with my Electronic Engineering degree, I would be thinking about setting up an auto repair shop like Gruber Motors in the US.  They specifically repair "unrepairable" Tesla batteries, power electronics modules etc saving their owners tens of thousands of dollars.

 

There is going to be a huge market for that and the barriers to entry are quite high, but academic rather than financial. Some people are going to get rich from this.

Yep, either that or adapting EV battery packs to solar systems.  

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yep, either that or adapting EV battery packs to solar systems.  

 

That could be the same business.  The car come in for repair, some of the packs go to solar, some get repaired.

 

Definitely will see some people getting rich out of this.

[transam]

13 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Sorry, my bad.

I was under the impression that your only interest was denial and annoyance.

How was your holiday ?

That's OK...........☺️

Holiday, no holidays of any sort for me, if you send some cash my way, I might consider one though.....................😂

[brfsa2]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:06 PM, Pib said:

There is a Youtube video where a guy buys a wrecked BYD Atto just to get the battery...and he has around a half dozen videos showing his disassembly of the battery pack....well, "partial disassembly" because he found out he could not disassemble fully because of how the blade batteries and accompanying battery management circuity boards plus other components were so tightly integrated....pretty much once assembled at the factory they will forever stay assembled....not designed for disassembly/repair.   

I also watched the same video and I realized the BYD Atto 3 is not a perfect car, and actually this is really bad for the customers.

These LFP batteries are great for life cycle, but there is also the failed modules that will happen way before the battery reach 50% life time, or 1/2 of the 2500 cycles.

If the individual module that failed cannot be easily replaced to save the whole battery, then doesn't matter than LFP batteries have such a long life cycle of nearly 1 million KMs.

 

This is very crucial detail that nobody knows about, and will not surface until we see a lot of people affected by this, many years in the future.

On the positive side, the BYD battery has very good water proofing, and so does the Tesla battery.

Tesla and Nissan both have the best battery pack in terms or serviceability and repairs.

 

[KhunLA]

Considering a new car this year ... then you die hard ICEV owners really need to peak at the EV offerings, as the 'Price War' is on ... big time.

 

Matching, even less expensive than many entry level ICEVs 'made in TH', especially if not settling for the base model of the ICEV.  Many less expensive than imports from JP.

 

NETA V starting @ 499k

BYD discounted across the board, I think

MGs discounted every other month it seems

new entries in the market

[brfsa2]

Some news! The BYD Atto 3 now has dropped 200,000 Baht from the full price.

The standard range 50KWh used to be 1.1 MB , Now it is being sold for 900K THB

This is really a huge discount, now a tesla cost twice as the BYD, and now it is even cheaper than the popular ICE cars like Honda HRV, Toyota Corolla/Cross.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:03 AM, JBChiangRai said:

If you mean the month compared to it's equivalent month in the previous year?  I don't think we will ever see this happen 3 times in a row in our lifetime (in Thailand).

 

On 2/16/2024 at 5:19 PM, vinny41 said:

I expect there will be a drop in registrations in  March 2024 and April  car sales up tp end of December 2023 normally  take 30-60 dates before they show up in the registrations monthly stats so expect to see skewed registrations for February 2024

A few of us plan to stay around for a bit longer, so with the first sales y-o-y sales drop in February 2024, the future is not looking bright for JB.

Vinny41 on the other hand nailed it and was just off by 1 month.

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

A few of us plan to stay around for a bit longer, so with the first sales y-o-y sales drop in February 2024, the future is not looking bright for JB.

Vinny41 on the other hand nailed it and was just off by 1 month.

Are we saying Feb 24 EV registrations are less than Feb 23 EV registrations ?

 

I don’t have the numbers to hand

[vinny41]

35 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

A few of us plan to stay around for a bit longer, so with the first sales y-o-y sales drop in February 2024, the future is not looking bright for JB.

Vinny41 on the other hand nailed it and was just off by 1 month.

I see Suzuki has joined the price reductions group it will be interesting so see if other ICE brands join the price reductions group

https://autolifethailand.tv/discount-official-price-suzuki-xl7-thailand/

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/discount-official-suzuki-ciaz-thailand/