The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

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16 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

No,I think in 10 years all the numbers are gonna shake out equally, just like I said from the start. And what do you know, the countries you mention are catching up to Sweden. I notice you don’t address the issue about all cause death rising in those other countries.

Nothing sadder than someone using a future predictionas evidence to justify their arguments. Unless of course you have a functioning crystal ball or are a time traveller. Who's going to win the next World Cup?

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5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

No,I think in 10 years all the numbers are gonna shake out equally, just like I said from the start. 

For that to be the case, you would have to be claiming that the vaccines have been ineffective in reducing mortality and serious illness. Maybe that's the case on some other planet. Not so much here on Planet Earth.

[robblok]

5 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

 

Don't worry about me i can use my brain and trust in science. You on the other hand have one thing going for you that is your preserverance unfortunately you apply it wrongly.

 

Now if you use that preserverance to really educate yourself and stop reading antivax nonsense you might actually one day be on par with normal people. 

 

We all had to learn to check data and think for ourselves in your case somewhere along the line it went wrong. But plenty of people have changed their minds and came out better. So who knows one day you might actually look back and understand how wrong you were. 

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You have as much chance of repealing the laws of probability as you have of overturning the laws of thermodynamics or nullifying gravity. Have at it.

It is not about you. It's about the selfish turds who won't get vaccinated and are 6 times more likely to tie up stretched hospital resources. Even politicians understand that, and they are not the sharpest tools in the drawer.

Fallacies arise from invalid assumptions. I am stating fact, sorry if that inconveniences you.

Please show me a credible link that demonstrates there is ANY age cohort where the PROBABILITY of a vaccinated person requiring hospitalisation is greater than someone who is unvaccinated.

The problem is when statistics are simplified to the point of becoming catchphrases (such as "most people in ICUs are not vaccinated") without stressing that external factors such as age or comorbities play a major role, then the perception of the reader/listener is influenced into thinking "unvaccinated = ICU" and that is just not factual, therefore the reasoning is faulty and at the end of the day it is just plain sophism. This article is a good example.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

The problem is when statistics are simplified to the point of becoming catchphrases (such as "most people in ICUs are not vaccinated") without stressing that external factors such as age or comorbities play a major role, then the perception of the reader/listener is influenced into thinking "unvaccinated = ICU" and that is just not factual, therefore the reasoning is faulty and at the end of the day it is just plain sophism. This article is a good example.

 

The hole in your argument is seen when the rest of the information reveals the outcome for vaccinated v unvaccinated people who exhibit the same comorbidities.

 

 

 

 

[CharlieH]

Reported post and responses to it removed.

[300sd]

Here's an interesting article from a large American insurance company about death rates in the last year. Up 40% in 18 to 60 year old's. The funny thing is that they are not being classified as covid deaths! What's up with that? Just wondering.

 

https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html

[rattlesnake]

34 minutes ago, 300sd said:

Here's an interesting article from a large American insurance company about death rates in the last year. Up 40% in 18 to 60 year old's. The funny thing is that they are not being classified as covid deaths! What's up with that? Just wondering.

 

https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html

Yes, what happened in the last couple of years which could have triggered such a massive death wave? I think I might have an idea, but I will keep it to myself.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The hole in your argument is seen when the rest of the information reveals the outcome for vaccinated v unvaccinated people who exhibit the same comorbidities.

 

 

 

 

That does not change the validity of what I have demonstrated. The example article I posted opposes an overwhelming majority of unvaccinated people on the one hand and a minority of vaccinated people on the other hand, with no further details whatsoever and that is a deliberate misrepresentation of facts.

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

 

The real problem in this “debate” is that one set of people want to decide for another set what to do with their lives. 
 

 

No, the real problem is one of accepting responsibility for one's actions.

 

You don't want to be vaccinated? Fine by me. Just don't expect free treatment in the public hospitals you clog up.

 

Don't expect to be given equivalent privileges when attending a sporting event, or seeking to be employed in a profession where the vulnerable need protection.

 

The science is in. Unvaccinated people that get COVID will have a much longer infectious period than vaccinated people who get infected. Fact.

 

You are potential plague carriers, don't you get that? Why should you be accorded the same rights as people who have acted responsibly?

 

We live in what are called democracies. Anti-vaxxers are a minority. Under said systems, and most other forms of government, minorities don't get to call the shots.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll, false, misleading posts and replies have been removed.  One member will not be joining the discussion further.

 

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3 hours ago, catturd said:

An injection of something dangerous is my first guess.

And yet it's the unvaccinated who die at many times the rate of the vaccinated. Clearly it's more like a  non-injection is dangerous.

Edited January 21, 2022 by placeholder

[gamb00ler]

Perhaps weakly related to the topic but still relevant.

 

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything"

and

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."

George Bernard Shaw

[TropicalGuy]

18 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

And yet it's the unvaccinated who die at many times the rate of the vaccinated. Clearly it's more like a  non-injection is dangerous.

30x in fact as latest UK ONS figures.

[TropicalGuy]

26 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Perhaps weakly related to the topic but still relevant.

 

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything"

and

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."

George Bernard Shaw

Seem quite stupid sayings. Everybody “changes their mind”.

And “ false knowledge” is clearly not “knowledge” at all just false belief.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, 300sd said:

Here's an interesting article from a large American insurance company about death rates in the last year. Up 40% in 18 to 60 year old's. The funny thing is that they are not being classified as covid deaths! What's up with that? Just wondering.

 

https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html

 

The article you cited gives a direct answer to the question you posed. But for some reason, you decided not to reference that explanation in your post above, instead preferring to make some kind of vague innuendo about COVID deaths.

 

Here's the explanation in the article you cited, and it's hardly new or exciting, and the same reality regarding COVID death counts has been recited many times before, to anyone paying attention:

 

"“What the data is showing to us is that the deaths that are being reported as COVID deaths greatly understate the actual death losses among working-age people from the pandemic. It may not all be COVID on their death certificate, but deaths are up just huge, huge numbers.”

 

Let me repeat the key point with my emphasis added:

 

"the deaths that are being reported as COVID deaths greatly understate the actual death losses among working-age people from the pandemic."

[cdemundo]

13 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Very entertaining fiction.  I do love the sincerity with which you claim to understand genetics and mutations.

Actually, he is pretty accurate description of selection.

Most people who post on here about evolution/mutation/selection muddle it up.

 

Selection acts upon the existing variation in a population.

The post is pretty accurate in describing that.

[onthedarkside]

A series of off-topic posts debating obesity have been removed, along with a series of COVID and vaccine misinformation, trolling and flaming posts by several members who have earned suspensions.

 

The topic of the thread is:

 

The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

 

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

At the end of any discussion like this, the last word always is and should be “each man decides for himself”. 
 

The real problem in this “debate” is that one set of people want to decide for another set what to do with their lives. 
 

As I keep saying, if you ain’t convinced by those words, you will never be. Because deciding on how to live one’s life should be left up to no one but the person in question. The fact that it is even discussed is a farce and indicative of where societies have headed. Societies’ collective heads have been jammed up a rectum. It was bad before Covid but resident Thai visa trolls prove the extra bad logic now. 

We live in a global society. If your actions have ZERO impact on me, then do what you want.  With vaccines, they have a direct impact.  Thus, the numerous vaccine mandates globally.

 

The set of people who want to decide for the other are medical and scientific professionals.  People we should all listen to.  Sadly, some get their info from social media.  And fall for it.

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/prior-covid-infection-more-protective-than-vaccination-during-delta-surge-us-2022-01-19/

That study is for Delta.  We're on to Omicron now.  Which has been proven to evade natural immunity.  Do the research on the data from South Africa.

 

From that article:

Quote

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

 

[ABCbangkok]

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

Edited January 22, 2022 by ABCbangkok

[gamb00ler]

6 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Actually, he is pretty accurate description of selection.

Most people who post on here about evolution/mutation/selection muddle it up.

 

Selection acts upon the existing variation in a population.

The post is pretty accurate in describing that.

Upon a second and third reading of @utalkin2me's post I can see your point if one is fairly relaxed in acceptance of lay terminology for a complicated subject.  Perhaps I misunderstood his meaning when he stated:

 

"That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim."

 

I took that to mean that our medicines/vaccines lead to unnatural genetic variations.  That theory is a common one amongst the COVID vaccine deniers.

 

If I misunderstood, I humbly apologize to @utalkin2me.
 

[transam]

31 minutes ago, ABCbangkok said:

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

Don't think I understand your post....

[Lacessit]

24 minutes ago, ABCbangkok said:

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

I was vaccinated with Sinovac in early August. Followup with AZ early September. Caught what I assume was the Delta variant in early October. 3 days of a sore throat and runny nose, finish. No after-effects.

The data was saying while Sinovac was like tossing a coin in terms of preventing infection, it was much more effective with respect to preventing serious illness. I'm a scientist, I follow the data.

 

At that time, due to bureaucratic delays, other vaccines such as Moderna and Pfizer were as scarce as hen's teeth in Thailand. I took what I could get, because I am in the most vulnerable age cohort, and waiting for months for alternatives would have been stupid.

 

I had myself tested for COVID antibodies two weeks after the AZ jab, 64 U/mL.

 

I'm not a cheerleader for Sinovac. Having said that, I believe the Sinovac/AZ combination shielded me from far worse outcomes.

 

Those consequences include long COVID, which is well documented. Here's the most recent link:

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/thai-study-examines-lasting-side-effects-of-long-covid-19?utm_source=Thaiger+Daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-01-22

 

Vaccines bad, no vaccines good. Eric Blair would have been amused.

 

 

[James105]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

We live in a global society. If your actions have ZERO impact on me, then do what you want.  With vaccines, they have a direct impact.  Thus, the numerous vaccine mandates globally.

 

The set of people who want to decide for the other are medical and scientific professionals.  People we should all listen to.  Sadly, some get their info from social media.  And fall for it.

France have had vaccine passports since July and managed to hit a whopping 464,769 infections in a single day!   What's your expert opinion on that?

[Lacessit]

Just now, James105 said:

France have had vaccine passports since July and managed to hit a whopping 464,769 infections in a single day!   What's your expert opinion on that?

The issue is not about how many infections occur, that's a given with a  new variant. It's about how many people become seriously ill and require hospitalisation.

The data is saying unvaccinated people are far more likely to end up in hospital, or need an ICU. Think about what would have happened if the whole of France had been unvaccinated, instead of focusing on irrelevancy.

[James105]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

The issue is not about how many infections occur, that's a given with a  new variant. It's about how many people become seriously ill and require hospitalisation.

The data is saying unvaccinated people are far more likely to end up in hospital, or need an ICU. Think about what would have happened if the whole of France had been unvaccinated, instead of focusing on irrelevancy.

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much. 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by onthedarkside
disallowed social media content removed

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44 minutes ago, James105 said:

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much.   

 

CDC: Boosters 90% effective in preventing severe COVID-19, hospitalizations

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/trending/cdc-studies-show-boosters-90-effective-preventing-severe-covid-19-hospitalizations/WCI3J7EFGNEX5BHKVX6IKWPP7E/

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much.  

If extremism consists of following the data, making informed decisions about my personal situation, and ignoring the beliefs of anti-vaxxer fruitloops, guilty as charged.

COVID has come and gone for me, due to my choices.

I hope it's not too late for you either.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Actually, he is pretty accurate description of selection.

Most people who post on here about evolution/mutation/selection muddle it up.

 

Selection acts upon the existing variation in a population.

The post is pretty accurate in describing that.

Well, actually not. For one thing, his description implicitly posits that the covid variants were pre-existing in the population all along. Not the case. These are mutations. They are novel. They are new.

Second he claims that it's the vaccines that are responsible for the rise of variants because they inhibit the spread of previous versions of the virus. First off, this does nothing to explain why these variants become dominant in unvaccinated populations which is still most of the world. But even in vaccinated populations what drives the success of these variants is the fact they they are more transmissible than the variants that preceded them. It may be true that in a small, way vaccination helps variants compete by inhibiting other competitors.. But overwhelmingly it boils down to the R factor: transmissibility. The Omicron variant is far more transmissible than any other variant. So naturally it's going to outcompete other variants in the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.